What pushes you from liking someone to actively getting them into your life?

[ToGoBoldly]

Hi,

What the thread title says, really.

I'm really struggling with feeling isolated and lonely. I've felt like this all my life, but it's been really intense recently so I have been feeling even more low than I ususally do.

I have a handfull of friends but no one really close, and they are all kind of fairweather friends. They've all kind of retreated away from me into their own lives, which is fine, I accept people grow apart, but it feels like everyone in the world has a network of friends and a partner, and I am being left on my own. I try really hard to get out and meet new people and stuff, but I feel like I am constantly rejected and it is really, really difficult to bear.

I have been doing some work on my feelings around this with my therapist and have been asked to drill down on why I believe I don't form close bonds with people. I can only think that people don't like me enough - they don't dislike me, but they don't like me enough to actively want me in their lives. It's as simple as that. She's tried to suggest I might be familiar with the feeling of rejection so kind of invite it, but I really don't think that's true. I try really hard to go out of my comfort zone with people - I am shy but friendly, I invite people to things, I make the first move, I volunteer myself for things, I am generous, I'm laid back and not pushy... but none of this seems to count. It feels like plenty of people think I am nice enough but they don't want or need me as a close friend. I don't blame other people for this - no one is obliged to be friends with everyone - but I just feel like everyone chooses people to be in their lives, but no one chooses me. And I've really hit a wall in trying to work this out.

This post sounds really needy and whiny, I promise I am not like this when I am trying to make friends or boyfriends! Like I said I am having counselling (for various things) but we've kind of reached an impasse on this one.

I've felt like this forever. I felt it at primary school, at secondary school, at university, at work, and in my love life. The only way I could explain clearly to my counsellor was how I felt it at primary school, so their behaviour is clear, not because they are horrible children but because they don't try to hide their feelings. But you can see more clearly with kids how people naturally gravitate towards those they want to be friends with, and that often is the really pretty girl, or the boy who is really good at football or whatever. I don't think things change a lot as an adult, it's just more subtle. And I don't think anything bad about people who have those who gravitate towards them and want to be their friend, but I just feel really sad because it feels like no one naturally gravitates towards me. It makes me feel really unloved and depressed.

I try to be proactive, no matter how many knockbacks I get I try to carry on with life and try new things, but it's really overwhelming. I asked my counsellor what she thinks I could do differently, but she is either stumped, or wants me to work the answer out myself. But I really can't think of anything beyond "people don't like me enough", which is their prerogative, but really hurtful when it feels like I'm not good enough for anyone I've met in my whole life.

So I guess I'm trying to bash out these thoughts a bit more. Am I just hideously unlucky that I never seem to meet people at the right time for them to want to pursue a friendship or relationship with me? Or what is the magic ingredient that makes people want to move things forward? I feel like there is a locked door and people will smlile and wave at me through a window and think "there's that woman, she's nice", but they won't ever invite me in, if that makes sense.

I am sorry if this sounds quite immature and self indulgent

Have you tried meetup.com - I meet a lot of people this way - mostly single people looking for people to do things with.

Hi Verity. Yes I have tried Meetup, CitySocialiser and various other similar sites. But it's the same thing - it fills some time and gives me something to do for s couple of hours, but I just can't bond with people there. I'm doing plenty of activities but still failing at relationships. I find it extra hard in big groups - even if no one knows each other at the start I feel like people flock to each other and I can't penetrate their pairs or their groups and I end up feeling like I am intruding. I have tried joining conversations, I'm the appropriate level of smiley and I make eye contact, but the best I can manage is a bit of chit chat. If I try to take it further no one is interested, and no one tries to take it further with me (hence me trying to be proactive about it).

Re fostering, I just don't think it's right for me at the moment. I admit I was when I first read the suggestion but to be honest yes I had considered it or adoption in th past. But it won't work for me at the moment. I'm trying to buy a flat and it's extremely hard (cheers, London property market) to even get a one bedroom place, even though I have a decent salary and deposit. I'm looking in the cheapest parts of outer London. There is no way I can afford a two bedroom place, much as I would love one, on the basis that I might do some fostering on the off chance that I get approved. So it's already out of the question. At the moment I am paying very very cheap rent for what I have, there's no way I'd be able to find something equivalent with a spare bedroom on the open market, renting a two bedroom place would completely hoover up my entire salary. And it would set me back even further on my savings, so I wouldn't be able to ever afford a stable home of my own for me and any children I may have or look after.

If I move away somewhere cheaper, well for a start there is no such thing in this region, and I would have a long and expensive commute. So I would hardly ever be at home to look after a child. I could look for a job elsewhere cheaper in the country but that would involve losing my current stable job, my counsellor, my hobby, the few support networks I do have... reestablishing myself in another town 100 miles away would be really difficult if I am already struggling with loneliness. I appreciate people manage to relocate successfully all the time but I've tried it before, different cities and different countries even, and it's the same process every time. I don't think the solution to my feeling isolated is to isolate myself further from everything I have at the moment.

If had a child I'd want it to have everything I didn't have - its own comfortable private space in a nice home, plenty of attention, being a priority and ideally two parents. I can't offer that if I get home at 7.30/8pm every night and don't have a partner to share the childcare with, even if I did manage to get a two bed home. So it's not an option for me in the foreseeable future. I'd consider it if my circumstances were different but it's logistically impossible right now.

Oh and I'm not very maternal. You know those women about whom people say "she's such a natural with kids!"? I'm not one of them

I'm so sorry ToGo. Words seem inadequate but I am a real person behind the screen and I do care for you. I know I'm not the only one on here, either.

I once read a book on loneliness and the one thing I remember is to think of all the people in all the world who are lonely; that we are not alone with it, that there are many, for myriad different reasons. In your city, town, even street. Especially in the west where individualism is god!

As you know, I do believe that what is going on now in my life is a direct manifestation of past experiences. I am currently going through a serious (finite) health crisis and that has been a litmus test for the quality of my relationships. Initially there was a flurry of the real stuff, my heart was warmed: I am loved! I didn't know it! But as time has gone by it has not been a pretty sight and once again I will be doing a cull. However, I do know, not just intellectually, that I am lovable, but that for myriad reasons - including my own self-inflicted isolation and cut-offness due directly to past abuse - I experience neglect and rejection. But some surprising people have stepped up - just not the ones I expected. As per! I could be cynical about those who have stepped up - and cynicism pumps away always, regardless; but I don't give it much space if I can help it. Bcs it doesn't help!

I do believe in a universal love (i mean human love) and sidestep that I am not experiencing it directly, that I am an observer a lot of the time. Eg I've just heard on the radio someone say 'family is the only place you are loved unconditionally!' and I snapped off the radio bcs it is unbearable to hear that: it was and is the very last thing I experience. But there is love about and if circumstances had been aligned differently I would have experienced that love. I do deserve it - we all do. People do heinous things for lack of it, suffer savage pain for the absence of it directly in their lives. I feel a heartfelt compassion for you as one human to another - isn't that love? I may not come to the cinema with you but I, and many lonely people, are there with you in the cinema: there is a thronging community of endless lonely experiences.

Do you ever look at people whose lives are pumped up with 'company' (not necessarily love!) and think how come? We can see their faults and wonder how on earth things have aligned that they get that luxury! A lot of that'company'is flakey though they are not self-aware enough to know it: a big crisis and a lot of it would vanish. A lot of people are romping about, ignoring; though the universal cry is always and will ever be 'am i loved?'

But there is the real thing about - always flawed! Re my health crisis - how much of the dropping off is more to do with my lack of response? - and I am on the lookout for it bcs I need it to feel whole and human. I may not get it directly, so much, but it's a solace that it's there. To me anyway. A world without it doesn't bear thinking about. I may have found the radio's 'unconditional love' caller unbearable but I'm glad somebody's getting it, even if it's not me; I'm glad it's around. I get it from myself, know the howling wastes in my soul are a direct manifestation of the abuse I suffered at an impressionable age. It was a lie, not the truth about me at all but the unloved damage of someone who did it to me. Hard to get rid of the stain, admittedly, but that's my task.

I hope this isn't too Patience Strong/Hallmark for you - it probably is! What I am saying is back up a bit - we may have had scant experience of the real mccoy but we're far from alone with that, worldwide, for endless reasons: it's far from unknown in the human experience. You may well not listen, may well stamp your feet and say 'but I want it! And I want it NOW' and I'm with you on that, as are many people worldwide.

But for all that universal comradeship in loneliness, I would still say that any profound, personal sense of isolation is isolation from myself, brought about when i was abused at an impressionable age: the abusers stamp transferred to me: i believed it and rejected myself - the quality of what I am experiencing now bears that out. Imo/e that breech can not ultimately be repaired intellectually but experientially. Going back in a controlled environment to that child who was cut off from herself and, with all the resources of myself as an adult, reintroducing her to herself is experiencing love, self love. Nothing woo about it: sound psychological practise. Which has to bear fruit - the converse being true, from experience.

You can't do this stuff in your head - it's exhausting apart from anything else: always, ever on the lookout (for the good AND the bad) it simply doesn't bring the goods! Wears us out - especially if the holy grail is stubbornly unforthcoming. When you dance, you dance ToGo: you don't think about dancing, so much, you actually dance.

Excuse the rambling tome, though. Tipped an entire cup of tea over my laptop yesterday and it's gone quiet on me (no adorable pug dog to blame). So it's tap tap on my tablet and editing is just too much work!

Thanks springy

I also am laptop-less at the moment, touch screens are not my thang. I'm off to buy a cheapo one in fact, so will reply when I have buttons.

I'm sorry you are unwell at the moment

Are you watching Strictly? I am a latecomer to it. But see how those who live their lives in their heads are wooden on the dance floor! It's as clear as day how thought/belief hold up the body.

Girl, you have the capacity to dance AND have a good brain in your head. That's something to be proud of.

ToGoBoldly nothing useful to add except that I totally relate. I've always been quiet, shy and a bit socially anxious and awkward. I'm quite superficially popular in e.g. work settings, I think because I am seen as sweet and unthreatening. However no one ever wants to socialise or have any type of relationship with me.

For example, I have been going to the same exercise group for eight years and I found out recently that they have all been socialising regularly without me. (I think they felt embarrassed that I found out but I just view it as par for the course.)

I have no friends and socialise only occasionally with a couple of retired people. I have never had a proper relationship (save a few emotionally distant/controlling ones in my 20s and 30s).

I'm now in my late 40s and the way I cope is by getting meaning and pleasure in my life in ways other than relationships. I feel sad about it but resigned.

My best wishes to you. It's not easy!

I totally relate as well. Very few people in the world I feel I manage to connect with, and the more knock backs I get the more socially anxious I become, which makes it even harder to make friends - it's a vicious circle. to you

OK, something (possibly) useful. If you don't like revisiting your childhood you might want to try CBT. It's no miracle cure but may help a little.

nobody likes revisiting their childhood - are you jokng?!

^ besides the point

Hi Egghead and Terrified, I'm sorry you've had similar situations.

I have been for CBT before but didn't find it terribly useful. I don't think my problems stem from negative thinking or behaviours so it's not a case of changing my thought patterns or what I do. I don't see the world through negative lenses because of my childhood, if that were the case I'd be a total pessimist and believe that there was no good in the world and everyone is evil. I don't think that. I just have a problem where I don't have anyone close to me. Maybe it's just bad luck but I am sick of living this way, I hate it, it feels like I am drowning in loneliness.

On the one hand I am told I need to link it all to my childhood and it's not my fault and I am scarred by the past which means I shut myself away. But then I give numerous examples of how I do the exact opposite of shutting myself away and still fail at getting to know people. Then I am told either it can't possibly true and I must be imagining it, or I am the agent in these situations and must be doing something wrong. I don't know what I am doing wrong, beyond me just not being an attractive enough prospect. It happens so quickly that there is no way people even get a chance to know my personality or my vulnerabilities or anything negative. It's just immediate indifference.

My counsellor pretty much thought I was being ridiculous when mentioned it might be partly to do with looks. She pretty much laughed at me when I spoke about people being attracted to attractive people, but a) the clue is in the name and b) I guess it's something you can't possibly understand unless you fail to meet the standards of attractiveness and people tell you straight up that's why they aren't interested in being your friend or more, which is what has happened to me. A lot of people are too kind to say it. But if you fall at that first hurdle, you are fucked. Of course I don't want to be friends with shallow and superficial people, but the trouble is there is no one else. There might be plenty of people who are too kind to say it outright but there is a reason unattractive people struggle where attractive or even average people don't.

I'm attractive and I struggle. I may get a window but the end result is similar to your end result. I'm also extrovert (born that way, folks) and that can give me a window - but not for long. Ppl want to be entertained and I look promising on that front on first acquaintance.

By keeping yourself back I don't think that refers to social skills btw. That is more of a core thing, not discernible to the naked eye.

But I was going to ask you what you think the problems are and I have trodden on one of your theories - apologies for that. Although I get a window bcs of attractiveness I do think you're right (evidenced by me being a window?)

Springy, yes I love Strictly (how did you guess?!)

I ask people what they mean by holding myself back, no one can tell me what they mean, so it's not something I can work on. My family take the piss out of my eyes but they're my eyes, ffs, I can't do anything about them. People also say I look like the joker when I smile but I can't do anything about my mouth. I think I just put people off.

I remember numerous occasion being out with people and strangers would come up and say something horrible about me. Humiliating for me, embarrassing for the people I am with. People don't want to be in these embarrassing and awkward situations, and they don't want to be unattractive by proxy.

I'm not attractive and yes, I think this is part of the problem too. People like to be friends with people who reflect well on them.

I've asked people in the past for feedback on what the problem is. Here are the answers I can remember:

• people think you are too serious
• you have a frowny face
• you're needy
• people don't know how to take you
• you don't look people in the eye
• people don't think you are interested
• you come across as aloof
• you are very timid

I have tried to improve these where I can but it hasn't changed anything (except that I am now superficially well-liked).

(I am not a window btw but predictive thinks I am.)

I am astounded ppl would say such vile things to you ToGo . I simply don't get how ppl could be so foul, I really really don't . so upsetting and horrible

"- you don't look people in the eye"

Ah that old chestnut. I mentioned to my counsellor a long time ago that someone mentioned it to me when I was very young but it was something I worked on. But she's latched on to this, and mentions how I do it in my sessions. My normal social contact is nothing like when I go to a counselling appointment and am asked to talk about the most difficult of subjects, so forgive me if I look around the room pensively now and again rather than staring at you intently. But I dont stand at bars with my arms crossed and averting my gaze on a day to day basis. I'm not a bloody idiot, I make eye contact with people when I am trying to connect with them.

That sounds annoying!

Re the strangers making rude remarks - yes that happens to me (e.g. Being told "You're a dog" when I asked someone for directions). Attractive people don't realise how differently unattractive people are treated. I've been out with my (moderately attractive) sister and seen how staff in shops switch instantly from being sullen and rude when serving me to all smiles and helpfulness when serving her!

I'm very aware I don't look at a therapist when I'm in a session. I am 'looking within' tbf. I've found it quite hard to override social rules about eye contact but I'm not there to follow social rules ffs.

I've been meaning to say about the therapist who made the comment about your heritage - can you flag that up? Either with the practiseor BACP. If you feel you can face it, I do think this needs to be brought to the attention of the PTB.

That happened about 15 years ago and through the NHS. I was 16, didn't want to be there anyway and can't remember her name even. She's probably heading up the local CAMHS by now. What training she had to make her think that would be a useful comment, I don't know. There I was trying to articulate how I couldn't make friends, especially at school, and she says perhaps it's because I am neither white nor black so no one wants me in their gang. Lord knows I've tried to find more reasonable explanations since then...

Hopefully she decided on a career change in the 15 years since then.

Boldly

You have a challenging job in a worthwhile area of employment, you have a rewarding hobby and you seem to find it easy to make casual friendships and so you must be quite personable. You are also a caring person and bravely make an effort when others (i.e. me) would be afraid to when having difficulty with other people - these things give you some sense of worth do they not?

If you were suddenly gifted close relationships, would that be enough to make you happy in yourself do you think? The me I used to be would have found that it wasn't.

Sorry, that first bit wasn't supposed to be accusatory if that's how it's come across. Lack of social filter on my part.

I don't even feel like I have casual friendships, I feel like I have nothing but acquaintances. I'm on a pretty low rung of everyone's friendship ladder. My problem is not feeling worthless, it's feeling like my worth is not valued and no one will take it from me and appreciate it, hence it is pointless and my life is empty and without meaning.

Oh it was the NHS? No wonder then - shit 'therapy' ime. Unbelievably bad. You'd have had more constructive input from a shop assistant. Some ppl strike it lucky with NHS 'therapy' but that's what it is: luck. Certainly not training.