What pushes you from liking someone to actively getting them into your life?

[ToGoBoldly]

Hi,

What the thread title says, really.

I'm really struggling with feeling isolated and lonely. I've felt like this all my life, but it's been really intense recently so I have been feeling even more low than I ususally do.

I have a handfull of friends but no one really close, and they are all kind of fairweather friends. They've all kind of retreated away from me into their own lives, which is fine, I accept people grow apart, but it feels like everyone in the world has a network of friends and a partner, and I am being left on my own. I try really hard to get out and meet new people and stuff, but I feel like I am constantly rejected and it is really, really difficult to bear.

I have been doing some work on my feelings around this with my therapist and have been asked to drill down on why I believe I don't form close bonds with people. I can only think that people don't like me enough - they don't dislike me, but they don't like me enough to actively want me in their lives. It's as simple as that. She's tried to suggest I might be familiar with the feeling of rejection so kind of invite it, but I really don't think that's true. I try really hard to go out of my comfort zone with people - I am shy but friendly, I invite people to things, I make the first move, I volunteer myself for things, I am generous, I'm laid back and not pushy... but none of this seems to count. It feels like plenty of people think I am nice enough but they don't want or need me as a close friend. I don't blame other people for this - no one is obliged to be friends with everyone - but I just feel like everyone chooses people to be in their lives, but no one chooses me. And I've really hit a wall in trying to work this out.

This post sounds really needy and whiny, I promise I am not like this when I am trying to make friends or boyfriends! Like I said I am having counselling (for various things) but we've kind of reached an impasse on this one.

I've felt like this forever. I felt it at primary school, at secondary school, at university, at work, and in my love life. The only way I could explain clearly to my counsellor was how I felt it at primary school, so their behaviour is clear, not because they are horrible children but because they don't try to hide their feelings. But you can see more clearly with kids how people naturally gravitate towards those they want to be friends with, and that often is the really pretty girl, or the boy who is really good at football or whatever. I don't think things change a lot as an adult, it's just more subtle. And I don't think anything bad about people who have those who gravitate towards them and want to be their friend, but I just feel really sad because it feels like no one naturally gravitates towards me. It makes me feel really unloved and depressed.

I try to be proactive, no matter how many knockbacks I get I try to carry on with life and try new things, but it's really overwhelming. I asked my counsellor what she thinks I could do differently, but she is either stumped, or wants me to work the answer out myself. But I really can't think of anything beyond "people don't like me enough", which is their prerogative, but really hurtful when it feels like I'm not good enough for anyone I've met in my whole life.

So I guess I'm trying to bash out these thoughts a bit more. Am I just hideously unlucky that I never seem to meet people at the right time for them to want to pursue a friendship or relationship with me? Or what is the magic ingredient that makes people want to move things forward? I feel like there is a locked door and people will smlile and wave at me through a window and think "there's that woman, she's nice", but they won't ever invite me in, if that makes sense.

I am sorry if this sounds quite immature and self indulgent

Hi OP.

I had a very emotionally blighted childhood like yours - and also like you focussed on "survival and control" - by being 'calm and rational' - intellectualizing everything through logical rational thought.

A great survival technique but one that only holds out for so long.

I also did very well academically and had a successful career. I am 48 but my emotional life has been a disaster - and all the wheels have progressively fallen off along the way - including recently my career.

The childhood trauma is always repressed within and eats you from the inside out and (mis) shapes your growth into an adult - exactly like Springy's out of balance/compensatory muscular skeletal analogy.

So yes through the mis shaping emotional growth we are indeed 'misfits" - and need to accept this before we can address it.

I do believe that others who have reached adulthood without any emotional blight can "6th sense" (unconsciously) our hidden pain/flaw and are warned off forming an intimate relationship.

We were not given the nurture, opportunity, tools, experience, support or guidance to develop our emotional instincts when young - and that is why adult life is exhausting and dysfunctional for us.

However I am going through therapy now which is based on revisiting childhood trauma. I to was v skeptical - in reality/on reflection I was extremely uncomfortable and scared of the potential loss of control if I opened that wound.

However the process is a visualization (not verbal - so you do not need to talk) technique where a skilled therapist walks you through the physical experiences you can identify in every part of your body when you are visualizing the trauma and then they talk you though another physical protective technique. It is all about looking it in the eye, examining it and then letting it go.

My therapist said that I had coped with the trauma by intellectualising everything and feeling nothing ie dissociation - and from this thread I can see that you may have done the same.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociation_(psychology)

I also like your "I dont like fish" analogy where everyone keeps advising haddocks - maybe you should take heed of the repeated wisdom from others who have been there before you. Take a punt, suspend belief, feel the fear and do it anyway......a much brighter future awaits.

Take Care.

M

Meditation didn't do it for me either; I also get bored very easily. Breathing techniques help, though, because they can be done very quickly and invisibly and work as a short-term fix for anxiety (even when not anxious about anything in particular).

A new thing I've been doing lately is distraction through emotional experience. That is, going to an art gallery, listening to music or watching a film and focusing on how it makes me feel. Moving films, evocative art and euphoric music have, I think, helped me reconnect with my emotional self. But I have to make an effort to let the feelings have air. I think I've got to the point where I can sense when I'm going to emotionally clam up and get past that. I think maybe the threat of experiencing strong emotions became the main trigger for my anxiety. Now I'm working through that anxiety, I can enjoy life more and also carefully examine feelings associated with past trauma. I still have 'issues', but they no longer feel inevitable and unbeatable.

Springydaffs, would you say you're experiencing an analogous deepening of emotional experience through developing your spiritual side?

Hi mulranna, thanks for posting. I'm sorry you've not had a great time of things either.

I have skimmed the Dissociation article but will read it more carefully when my brain is working!

The 6th sense thing as well, I struggle to believe it. People love dramas and fixing people and whatnot. But if it is true, people have a 6th sense that I am damaged and steer clear, then I have even less hope than I thought.

However the process is a visualization (not verbal - so you do not need to talk) technique where a skilled therapist walks you through the physical experiences you can identify in every part of your body when you are visualizing the trauma and then they talk you though another physical protective technique.

this sounds like some sort of hypnosis . I'm not sure I'm down for that. I honestly don't think I'd be able to do something like this without awkward giggles. and I don't feel like there is anything I need to let go of, I feel like I let it go a decade or so ago. I don't feel like it's trauma, I'm not disturbed by it. scratched record ha . I have an appointment tomorrow so will discuss.

Springy I listened to Women's Hour this evening loved listening to the two magazine editors. I totally adored magazines when I was younger, had stacks and stacks of them under my bed and they were the only thing I spent money on. They both edited magazines that I read when I was young, so they are kind of heroes.

Cool!

Re people picking up on a subconscious level - imo what they pick up isn't very sophisticated re they pick up there is something 'different' and, as I said above, don't go for 'different'. Now, 'different' could be eg bright, arty, fucked, brown . I don't think they are very discerning tbh. But ime one can blag anything... especially as they're probably fucked, too, in their way.

But that's what you have been doing: blagging. I thought Mulrana's technique sounded fab, yet you have dismissed it out of hand. I admit I am pissed off [my stuff] you refuse to even entertain reconciling with, well, yourself. Especially as the extent we experience isolation is the extent we are isolated from ourself.

Everything seems to be about you, lately. I was watching an old SATC and Carrie goes to therapy. She says to the therapist 'I must be honest, I don't agree with therapy; I'm a work-it-out-yourself kinda gal'.

Itp: erm I don't feel I have developed my spiritual side. I have suffered a great deal which, of itself, has developed my awareness of my humanity. I believe humanity was created by God - which he delights in entirely, where it's at. So in that sense I have come to know God by being human.

I'm the worst blagger ever. I also know myself pretty well, it's not like I am emotionally dead.

Yes I was conscious I was dismissing that technique, but it really sounded like a Paul Mckenna experience. I can't justify my position any more than by saying I'm extremely sceptical of any sort of spiritual, out of body experience to solve my woes. Which may or may not be a good enough reason. It's not fear, it's a lack of belief. Surely you can understand that- its like asking someone to believe a different religion.

I'm not scared of what would happen- what realistically can happen by talking about the bogeymen of the past? Nothing.

So when mulranna said suspend disbelief, I said I will discuss it tomorrow. But I think I've said, I've touched on my past in therapy before and the only response is kind of "ooh that was bad, poor you, it wasn't your fault". Yes yes, I know all this, what now?

When I said "what realistically can happen?" I meant what's the worst that can happen, not what's the point

Eg when we were talking about eating, my counsellor was trying to get me to think about bonding with my mum through breastfeeding. I don't bloody know, I was a baby! I can't take myself back to how I felt then. It's really frustrating.

Is it EMDR?

I don't know what type of therapy you've had but I'd, personally, be with you on the breastfeeding thing. But only bcs of the type of person I am: practical sort.

You may know yourself extremely well but there is a whole well you refuse to know. It is there, pumping away, waggling at you, whether you like it or not. It is so shut up, locked, it is causing you a great deal of pain. That's how it goes. It's not at root about emotions, it's about your psyche. You've got your emotions covered.

ime i was in so much pain I would have tried anything, woo included. Thankfully, I didn't get much woo but practical stuff re the psyche. Which was a good job.

How it goes is that a specific experience is revisited - experientially, not rationally (you know all there is to know rationally, ToGo; you know it was horrible and it wasn't your fault) as an adult. Hence essentially 'safe' environment. It goes that trauma can 'lock' us psychologically - the lock is extremely tight as you know . It's a case of getting it open. Sometimes straightforwardly but sometimes crablike because the pain and fear is so great, the lock so tight. One basically tries anything to get it open, doesn't matter what it is.

I am currently struggling mightily with my stupid laptop because goblin programmes are running in the background that I don't know how to access. The toil and patience involved in getting the simplest effing thing done bcs of the relentless, thuggish drag! Perhaps the parallel is that malware is running in your psyche, ToGo - the part of yourself you refuse to go. The evidence is certainly there and it's clear to see: you are suffering terribly, basic things aren't working properly, despite your exemplary patience and resources. I am a brilliant typist but it's a skill that doesn't address the bowels of this effing machine. There's more, specialist, work needed.

They study this stuff at Cambridge ffs, isn't that enough? It's basic. Find something that appeals to you, swerve what doesn't (eg obvious woo), but do get it done.

"So in that sense I have come to know God by being human."

Sound's pretty spiritual to me. I'm not using the term in a pejorative sense at all. I know God well, though have never believed in Him. Or at least, what I believe other people call God is something I feel know in a different way.

I will now wildly, theorize (sorry this post is so long).

My personal feeling is that spirituality is a fundamental aspect of the human self. We invented God and religion and faith to try to understand it and to use it to empower ourselves (though some use it to empower themselves at the expense of others). It is an emotional state, but one made out of a combination of others: love, compassion, empowerment, and (on the negative side) even fear and anger - it varies upon the person and the context.

I think that Descartes' mind-body duality and its widespread adoption by Western philosophy has led to us denying spirituality as a valid human experience. Spirituality was once deemed 'other' as a way of raising it above the mundane. Now that we are a society based on science, rationality and materialism we look down on that 'other' and so society minimises spirituality, and often mocks it - casting the explicitly spiritual as slightly deluded, anachronistic, brainwashed or plain wacky.

But all our emotions are properties of our physical human brain. To get all scientific, mind and body are two different ways of organizing information. They are ones which are intimately linked and both are understandable in a scientific way (one day, probably). Spiritual feelings are real things and matter to us, though, granted, more so to some than others.

I personally believe it should be possible to explore and enjoy a spiritual existence outwith either religious belief or pseudo-scientific woo. The religions came after spirituality, and are, therefore, interpretations of spirituality. I'd throw humanism in there too, and Buddhism. These all possess some form of conceptual framework for understanding certain otherwise ignored emotional concepts, including their own language for describing something that really does exist. The woo shamelessly appropriates scientific language and concepts in an attempt to meet genuine spiritual needs (or to exploit those needs) that are denied satisfaction by the above paradoxical juxtaposition of a 'supernatural' God with a society dominated by scientific thought.

So, I'd use the term soul and the term true-self interchangeably. Both are, in essence, definitions of a well-integrated sense of awareness, on an emotional level, of the self and one's relationship to the world and with other people. I think spirituality is actually developing a new framework within the secular world. Some of our most famous pop-culture icons have a spiritual side. Christopher Nolan's films (e.g. Interstellar) and some of the works of Banksy (see attached image) are quite spiritual imho . I'd say all those Marvel films do so well because they are modern parables / folk-lore which explore ideas of self-sacrifice, morality, compassion, companionship and so forth. Star Wars also, which contains a lot of Buddhism (Jedis are very much like Buddhist monks). Tolkien was a religious man, and though Lord of the Rings is not a religious work I'd say it was intended to be a spiritual one - and I think that's why it has such a widespread and enduring appeal. Even sport can be spiritual. To quote Bill Shankly (possibly the most revered football manager of all time).

"Some people believe football is a matter of life and death, I am very disappointed with that attitude. I can assure you it is much, much more important than that."

I believe it's no exaggeration to say that Shankly and his football club had a spiritual link with the people of Liverpool.

I'd argue we (as a culture) never really stopped being spiritual beings, we just stopped valuing our spirituality because we couldn't frame it rationally and scientifically in a secular society. Our only societal measure of spiritual value is in the financial rewards it reaps. And maybe that's exactly what we arch-rationalists have done in our own individual ways - we minimize spirituality and quantify it only in terms of what it contributes to our rational understanding of ourselves (i.e. not much). I guess what I'm trying to do myself is carve out a place for spiritual feelings within a scientific understanding of the Universe. I'm pulling myself up by the bootlaces by rationally validating the importance of experiencing the world on an emotion level!

I'm in a bad way tonight. and I have no one to talk to about it

Talk to us - what has happened

I feel so terrible. nothing is going to get better and it's all so painful. I don't want to do this anymore. I spoke about stuff and its the same. i=I just don't think I fit in to the world.

Are you referring to your counselling session today?

What was said? How have you reached this conclusion ?

yes. I spoke about stuff and she said can't I see how that has shaped me as an adult. I said no. If it has, then it can't be fixed.

Why can't it be fixed ? There are lots of us on here who are on that road.

because no one is listening to me. the fact that I am being ignored by everyone now is nothing to do with anything that has gone before. I've tried everything and I just can't get people to like me. That;s not because of any abuse or neglect. That/s because people just don't like me.

Hi. I posted earlier but haven't yet had chance to contribute again. I'm sorry to hear about what you have been through, I can't believe that people can be so horrible. I just wanted to post quickly as I see that you are struggling. I don't have any words of wisdom but from what you have written in previous posts you sound like a really interesting, intelligent person, and it makes no sense that you have had to deal with so much rubbish from other people. I do hope that you are able to find the support you need. I'm probably wrong but perhaps you need to just try to get through the next couple of days and try to forget the future and the wider picture for now. Thinking of you.

With respect - it is you who is not listening to anyone - in rl or online. I understand that to face your demons is terrifying but from my experience the consequences of not doing so were worse. You have tried it your way and it has repeatedly failed. All I can suggest is to keep re reading the thread until the penny drops for you and I hope it does soon.

A few thoughts then -

Yes I suppose I did see 'spiritual' in a derogatory, floaty way. I don't know what you mean about 'developing' spirituality. I don't see myself as spiritual at all. I suppose bcs i am not a floaty person. I also don't see God as remotely floaty. Yy it could be argued - and obviously is - that God is an invention of my own imagination bcs I enjoy in my relationship with God the things that are important to me, the things that do it for me. So God wouldn't approach me in a floaty way bcs that isn't my thing - just as I enjoy talking about washing powders but some don't so I wouldn't talk to them about it. I'm sure God does floaty with floaty sorts, just not with me.

I kind of cringe when someone says about someone 'oh, s/he is very spiritual'. That, to me, denotes floaty (of course), female, indulgent, silly . Oh dear, that is my prejudice. All talk of angels etc irritates me to death. My relationship with God was ignited when I was desperate for comfort and solace. I wasnt looking for God but i did find solace in that my quest gave me context, human context, and it was context I needed at that point in particular. I think we all look for context - hence why people check out people to gauge where we stand: am I like them/are they like me/are they better than me/am I better than them/how am I doing/am i good enough (bottom line).

That Banksy is a bit floaty for me - balloon! - but Banksy himself, I adore his filling out his space. It shouldn't be a privilege to fill out one's space but, sadly, it is. As my space has been historically quashed, flattened, abused I particularly value exploring not only who I am but who other people are. That is, I suppose, what 'spiritual' is to me. If spiritual is celebration. It isn't to me oinking out mysteries - i'm much more interested to enjoy myself (and to see other people enjoying themselves, as much for them as for me). All enjoyment, the big and the small. I am genuinely distressed at blocked anything looking at you, ToGo

So I do celebrate and enjoy eg Shankly's 'spiritual' relationship with Liverpool [do you mean soul connection?] and the great joy football gives to men people. By the same token I felt The Rage when locals dressed the Angel of the North in a huge England t-shirt and the artist got sniffy and had it removed .That t-shirt was glorious, irrefutable evidence the locals celebrated and cherished that artwork, embracing it into their very hearts, into what was important to them. I genuinely don't think they were taking the piss - and the fuckhead artist rejected that connection. Bastard bastard bastard. How dare he dominate their landscape - have you seen it? It is HUGE - and refuse them access

Still don't get the 'spiritual' thing tho. Apologies I haven't addressed your excellent points itp.

thank you camel and mulranna

I did talk about stuff today. I see how it has shaped me but it has not shaped how other people accept me or not.

she asked me again whether I know much about my infancy. No, I was a baby. If my life is fucked up because of what happened when I was a baby then I can't even talk about that, not won't, can't, because I don't fucking remember it. I was a baby. If that's what's ruined me I should not be here at all.

Sorry, took all night to post that with interruptions.

Try to hold out ToGo, to let this crisis pass. It is common to feel intense pain after a therapy session. Hold on! It passes, quite quickly. Hold on sweetheart.

We are listening to you, are we not? Your thread has run and run. I appreciate its not the same as rl but it's not bad. You have been respected and cared for on here. I'm real, ToGo, I assure you.

Keep posting if it helps xxxx