What pushes you from liking someone to actively getting them into your life?

[ToGoBoldly]

Hi,

What the thread title says, really.

I'm really struggling with feeling isolated and lonely. I've felt like this all my life, but it's been really intense recently so I have been feeling even more low than I ususally do.

I have a handfull of friends but no one really close, and they are all kind of fairweather friends. They've all kind of retreated away from me into their own lives, which is fine, I accept people grow apart, but it feels like everyone in the world has a network of friends and a partner, and I am being left on my own. I try really hard to get out and meet new people and stuff, but I feel like I am constantly rejected and it is really, really difficult to bear.

I have been doing some work on my feelings around this with my therapist and have been asked to drill down on why I believe I don't form close bonds with people. I can only think that people don't like me enough - they don't dislike me, but they don't like me enough to actively want me in their lives. It's as simple as that. She's tried to suggest I might be familiar with the feeling of rejection so kind of invite it, but I really don't think that's true. I try really hard to go out of my comfort zone with people - I am shy but friendly, I invite people to things, I make the first move, I volunteer myself for things, I am generous, I'm laid back and not pushy... but none of this seems to count. It feels like plenty of people think I am nice enough but they don't want or need me as a close friend. I don't blame other people for this - no one is obliged to be friends with everyone - but I just feel like everyone chooses people to be in their lives, but no one chooses me. And I've really hit a wall in trying to work this out.

This post sounds really needy and whiny, I promise I am not like this when I am trying to make friends or boyfriends! Like I said I am having counselling (for various things) but we've kind of reached an impasse on this one.

I've felt like this forever. I felt it at primary school, at secondary school, at university, at work, and in my love life. The only way I could explain clearly to my counsellor was how I felt it at primary school, so their behaviour is clear, not because they are horrible children but because they don't try to hide their feelings. But you can see more clearly with kids how people naturally gravitate towards those they want to be friends with, and that often is the really pretty girl, or the boy who is really good at football or whatever. I don't think things change a lot as an adult, it's just more subtle. And I don't think anything bad about people who have those who gravitate towards them and want to be their friend, but I just feel really sad because it feels like no one naturally gravitates towards me. It makes me feel really unloved and depressed.

I try to be proactive, no matter how many knockbacks I get I try to carry on with life and try new things, but it's really overwhelming. I asked my counsellor what she thinks I could do differently, but she is either stumped, or wants me to work the answer out myself. But I really can't think of anything beyond "people don't like me enough", which is their prerogative, but really hurtful when it feels like I'm not good enough for anyone I've met in my whole life.

So I guess I'm trying to bash out these thoughts a bit more. Am I just hideously unlucky that I never seem to meet people at the right time for them to want to pursue a friendship or relationship with me? Or what is the magic ingredient that makes people want to move things forward? I feel like there is a locked door and people will smlile and wave at me through a window and think "there's that woman, she's nice", but they won't ever invite me in, if that makes sense.

I am sorry if this sounds quite immature and self indulgent

Delurking to say that I can identify with a lot of what you say OP. I have always been on the fringe of friendship groups too. Never really managed to work out why though I suspect its a combination of spending all my childhood with overly restrictive emotionally cold parents and the next thirty years of my life with an emotionally cold narc exH. Believe me, there are worse things than being alone.

I'm a lot older than you and I am not planning on another relationship as I'm sure I would end up in another crap one. I do get lonely at times but I work hard to make sure that I fill my time in ways that make me feel better.

the following is certainly not me saying that I know everything and have a magic solution, just sharing my own experience.

Different things work for different people but my own personal recipe is to manage a combination of volunteering (contact your local Marie Curie and MacMillan centres they ALWAYS have a range of volunteers wanted), two gym classes a week (I hate them but I'm at the age when it is use it or lose it), a monthly massage to get that physical contact, pets: I have lots as I work from home, but you can find a dog to walk occasionally at the Cinnamon Trust www.cinnamon.org.uk/volunteers/. Your local vets will also be happy for you to put up a sign offering occasional dog walking or pet sitting, one Meetup meeting a week (usually a talk or something writing related for me) and once a month or so an outing with friends (usually a group thing where I just tag along). I also have a network of local superficial contacts I cultivate consciously - e.g. neighbours who I say hello to, I always chat with the cashiers in the supermarket so they remember me, I joined the neighbourhood watch to broaden my contacts (my sister joined the Parish Council for the same reason), I'm a school governor etc. It's not deep, but even a five minute chat can lift your mood.

Fundamentally I am on my own through all of this, but it fills the time and gives me just enough human contact on my own terms to be satisfied and keep me from getting down.

It takes planning though. Is it worth your while sitting down to plan consciously to fill your time in a way which you will enjoy? Not in the expectation of changing anything fundamental, but as an exercise in lifting your mood?

Oh and BTW, I note you have a recurring theme of feeling that people look down on you for your mixed race background and brown skin. Absolute bollocks in my view, surely that is exactly the most desired look now if you look at the media and especially yoof media. The UK now is packed with people of all different ethnicities and backgrounds and is all the better for it. I don't know where you live, but if anyone comments on your colour adversely then they are way out of step with the norm and that's not you it's them!

Hi 3mum, thanks for posting

That's part of the problem of the whole fetishizing thing. I'm in danger of derailing my own thread here, but it's an interesting topic of race and assumptions and acceptance...

I don't give a crap about my race to be honest, I don't feel it is a part of my identity at all, I find it incredibly boring and no more significant than having brown eyes or blue eyes. But I do feel like people want it to mean way more than I do, (hey maybe that offensive group therapy leader when I was 16 was right after all, even though she just bluntly said I stand out like a sore thumb and then didn't bother to lead any further discussion on it). Sometimes they are sinister, sometimes they think they are well-meaning but are just patronising and ignorant, either way it's a bit shitty.

When I was young, my race was undesirable, and the whole spectrum of black, white and asian was quick to point out my physical inadequacies. I live in a very multicultural area but there were very few people who looked like me when I was younger, and when you're in a pack, people always pick on the one who has obvious differences to make themselves feel stronger and superior.

I'm mixed race but I don't fit into the image of what people want me to be. I'm not uber-pretty, I'm dumpy and bookish, I'm not the cool urban friend, I'm a bit dorky...I don't fit the stereotype so I can't be of use to them. If I looked like Beyonce or Rihanna or someone else beautiful I'm sure I wouldn't have had these problems, so it's not as simple as "people think brown people are ugly". But you are definitely measured against different standards. People (twats who I have no time for, granted, but people nonetheless) say straight up that they judge people who different or a minority more harshly. Look at those poor women who were turned away from that wanky nightclub this week - it's so depressing that this kind of thing still goes on in 2015. They've done nothing wrong, and yes the club promoter was the one totally in the wrong, but I wonder who will be the ones left questioning their place on this earth? In my experience it's rarely the perpetrator...

There are loads of studies and evidence on this - if you're in the majority, you can easily coast by being just average, if you're in the minority, you have to be exceptional and work twice as hard to be accepted and given a chance, let alone succeed. And if you are given a chance and you fail, the problem compounds and people think "Yep, I was proved right". You see it all the time with race, with gender, with disability... So I am by no means alone, but I think it has contributed, and I definitely feel it on a personal level.

It doesn't even have to be overt BNP style ranting, the amount of casual offensive comments I observe are depressing. When I was at uni my housemates were laughing about "chavvy single mums with their chavvy mixed raced babies, hahahaha". And these are middle class, privately educated supposedly liberal young people! That they find that kind of thing funny is bad enough, but that they find it appropriate to make a joke about it knowing I was once a mixed race baby, and my mum is a single mum just made me feel a hot sense of shame rising inside me. Challenge it and they say "oh not you, of course" or "it's just banter", but that doesn't soften the blow, somehow... Challenge it more and you can't take a joke and have a chip on your shoulder, apparently.

You can even disappoint people with really basic stuff. I've had conversations like "where are you from?" can be a bit annoying. "Where are you from?" "Luton". "No, where are you from originally?" "Oh, well I was born in Southampton..." "You know what I mean, don't be so obtuse and try to make me out to be a fool!". Or "Are you Brazilian?" "No, I'm from Slough" "Oh...[exits stage right, disappointed]". There was a lot of head-tilting by other girls at school, saying I was "unsure of my identity" because I didn't like urban music, ha. I manage to annoy or offend people just by not being the exotic or cool thing they assume I might be. I tried to be accommodating to people like this but these days I'm so jaded I just roll my eyes when it happens.

Yes the people with the negative/offensive/discriminatory/stererotypical pigeonholing views are the ones in the wrong, but I can't go as far to say "well it's their problem", because it's my problem, because I am the one who feels like shit at the end of their barbed comments, and I am the one that is not given opportunities, while they go about their day feeling superior.

I do agree with you though, that things aren't as bleak these days, and if I were a young person now I don't think I would have had nearly as much of this nonsense. Nowadays I see little girls who look just like mini versions of me all the time, and there are way more role models and so on, so I hope it's getting less of a thing.

Like I said I don't think this is the root cause of all my problems by any means (though I can't deny it is a problem in how people see me, not least because they have explicitly told me it is part of how they judge me negatively, when I was 5, when I was a teen, in my 20s, even last year). But it's an interesting discussion and I know I'm not the only person who feels this way to various degrees, whether it's about race or any other marker - accents, a woman with short hair, someone who gets patronising, pitying "aw bless" looks because of a disability... I should start a tumblr page on it, ha.

Actually maybe I am too verbose for tumblr...

As for the rest of your post, 3mum - I fill a lot of my time, I'm great at keeping myself busy. I do volunteer and have done various things since I was 17 (don't want to say what as I've already posted pretty much my life story and don't want to be recognised ), but thanks for the Cinnamon Trust recommendations though. I've looked at the Dogs Trust and Blue Cross and so on this week but there was nothing in my area, maybe CT will have something. I could do with a four-legged, waggly tailed bundle of fun. I miss my cat loads. I might get a bunny.

I agree with your other action points as well. I have felt my mood improve since I started exercise. I used to be a proper couch potato, now I'm doing 5 or 6 hours of prancing around like an idiot every week and it has done me no end of good. It's made me fitter and healthier, and am now only a bit overweight instead of enormous, I look better because my skin etc is better as well, it's led me on to other exciting interests...

So I do lots of things that I "enjoy" and they feel like they are worthwhile, but I just don't feel like I am living, if that makes sense. Or maybe it's more I feel like I am doing things but not experiencing life as it's supposed to be, because life is not just a series of activities, it's people and relationships that you have as well.

If you are bringing up a child, you don't just take them to school, take them on holidays, take them to Scouts, take them to the park - that would be doing plenty of activities, but it's not enough. For the child's life to be fulfilling, they need to have some sort of emotional and intellectual stimulation as well, and that comes from just talking on a fairly broad level. That's kind of how I feel as an adult - on the surface everything looks ok and I am doing all the right things but I am missing a massive stimulus that can't be replaced or compensated with other things indefinitely, it makes me feel like I am just a filler while other people have all the meaningful stuff.

And yes, I totally agree that being alone is not the worst thing. I'd rather be alone than suffer poor relationships.

I think you sound great OP. You write very eloquently, showing intelligence and humour. You come across as a deep thinker which I like as a quality in a person.

It would be lovely if you did get 'a four-legged, waggly tailed bundle of fun' I have cats and you can't feel lonely with a purring ball of fluff cuddled up on you.

In my experience some people are very instant. They make a quick judgement on a person and don't always give them the chance to show their personality.

I'm quite shy especially with people I don't know although I am better these days. I don't dazzle people with my charm and wit :) straightaway but I might if they gave me a chance!!

I am ok where I am in my state of mind right now but I have had many occasions when I could have written a post similar to your OP. I do have good close friends who I see often but people are busy with their lives and I would like to have more of a social life than I do. I miss out on doing things sometimes because I don't want to do them by myself and other people can't always be relied on or are busy.

I have many positives in my life but I do get fed up with it being just me. Like you I would rather be alone than settle for a bad relationship.

I don't really know what to advise but I don't think it is a reflection on you.

It strikes me that it would, ironically, be better for you if you were less well-adjusted and less content with who you are. You are obviously trying so hard - but, for some reason, I'm not getting any real sense of fighting spirit. Maybe that's because you're so certain that you're perfectly happy with yourself that there's no drive for you to change who you are. You've ticked all the boxes, both in your external behaviour and on the list of counsellor's "things-to-do to be happy with yourself". You simply say "This who I am, I don't see why I should have to be someone I'm not. People don't want to be close to me, so there's nothing I can do."

Something needs to change, but you can't expect it to be other people because, well, it isn't that kind of party. So it's going to have to be you. Maybe a place to start is with exploring the process of how you became so certain that you are now your 'true self'. How did it come to be that someone who's had such a crap childhood can be so at peace with themselves when the rest of us are clearly held together with sticky tape and bits of old rope? What was your journey? What feelings did you have to experience to get from screwed-up child to reasonable, rational adult?

Hm I'm not one to think I'm perfect and there's always room for improvement, I dont think I have no capacity for growth. When I said I don't want to be someone I'm not, I meant I don't want to assume qualities that I don't even consider all that great just because other people expect them of me, when what I have is perfectly fine. Yea maybe people want me to be more wild, maybe people want me to join them in snorting cocaine or flash my tits at passing cars or whatever, as I'd be more entertaining for them, but how would that benefit me? Why should I if I don't want to, and don't particularly admire that kind of behaviour? It wouldn't win me more friends or respect, it would be people laughing at, not with me.

My true self is one who wants to do what is good for me, not what will please other people with questionable motives.

Something needs to change, but you can't expect it to be other people because, well, it isn't that kind of party. So it's going to have to be you. Maybe a place to start is with exploring the process of how you became so certain that you are now your 'true self'. How did it come to be that someone who's had such a crap childhood can be so at peace with themselves when the rest of us are clearly held together with sticky tape and bits of old rope? What was your journey? What feelings did you have to experience to get from screwed-up child to reasonable, rational adult?

First of all, the suggestion I am not falling apart at the seams like everyone else is amusing. I wouldn't be having the struggles that I describe, a 16 year eating disorder and the occasional suicidal ideations if that were the case.

When people tell you for your entire life that you're shit, when you're 30ish you might reach a breaking point and get to the verge of killing yourself, but somehow end up paying 200 quid a month to a counsellor instead. Then you spend nearly 2 years discussing how you have been told you are shit but you know you are not, yet people telling you you are makes you feel even more shit so maybe you are wrong? Eventually you realise and accept that that the people who tell you you are shit, including the people you should have trusted the most in the world which makes it extra hurtful, do not have your best interests at heart, you reach the conclusion that actually you are ok and they are wrong. That's not saying you are perfect and can never improve and don't need to make any effort, you never go from feeling like you are worthless to feeling like you are amazing perfection. It's just knowing which of your qualities you do like and are happy with, which helps you accept yourself as a person and the feeling of wanting to kill yourself might be suppressed a little.

So if someone says "don't you wish you were more like something that is the total opposite of what you are?", it's fine to say no if the answer is no. I'm short, it frustrates me sometimes, I can't reach things, I look young and lack gravitas, buying trousers is a ballache, my legs are muscly so the proportions are all odd, and I feel admiring envy when I see an elegant tall woman with lovely long legs. But do I wish I were tall? No, because then I wouldn't be me. And being tall comes with its own downsides, I'm sure. Buying trousers is probably an equal amount of ballache. My personality is the same. I will never be tall, I will never be an extrovert. I have been overweight - that was in my control and I have become less overweight, and it made me happier. I have been a bit of a doormat - that was in my control and I have become more assertive. But being short and being and being calm are not bad things or things that will hold me back, so I am not going to wish I could change them.

There are loads of things I wish I were - a bit less lazy, tidier, less sarcastic, loads of other things. But I won't feel bad about qualities that I consider to be positive or even neutral, just because other qualities are more attention-grabbing. And no one is ever 100% of anything anyway - I'm not wild but I do wild things; I'm not loud but can have a raucous night of hilarity at the pub, I'm patient but I can get pissed off at having to wait for a train, or get frustrated at someone who doesn't understand something that I find really simple.

I'm at peace with who I am as a person because I have spent nearly 2 decades and thousands of pounds of therapy to get to this point. Being at peace doesn't mean you think it's now fixed in stone and you don't need to make an effort, and it most definitely doesn't mean there aren't things about yourself that you don't like. I'd take inner peace and acceptance that I am not perfect over daily turmoil of self loathing because I am not perfect, any day of the week.

The thing I am struggling with now, though, is that the things that mean people don't connect with me are things out of my control. If they are scars from my youth, I can't undo them. Wounds heal but scars do not, they are permanent, I will always have them and I am always going to be fucked if people can spot them a mile off.

I cannot just say "oh well, that was shit, I didn't develop emotionally, let's nourish and embrace the young me so she feels loved and cherished and then the adult me will be loved and cherished". It doesn't work like that. Like you said, I can't change anyone else. They're not going to give a shit that I have finally embraced and loved and cherished my inner child. They won't even know I have done that. If I'm not going to be liked because I am a good and kind person who has managed to pull herself together after a couple of shit times, then that's a very glum world of shallowness and there is naff all I can do about it. So perhaps I should have saved those thousands of pounds and bother when I was 30ish.

Am I upsetting the expectations? If you had a shit childhood you can't be a calm adult unless you have some sort of psychopathic, emotionally cold creepy streak? You can only be well adjusted if you had a stable and supported childhood? Would it be ok if I were weeping and wailing and smashing plates, because that's the "true self" product of a fucked up childhood that people want to see? But if I don't feel it how can I possibly express it, isn't that just lying to myself?

I guess my conclusion is, I'm not anything inherently bad or unlovable, I have good traits and bad like everyone else in the world, I just feel like I'm not meant to be here as I don't fit in. There's another thread on here about living without love, people who are a bit bewildered because they are coming to the realisation that they are going to be alone for the rest of their lives. I'm sure not every single one of them has had shit and abuse to deal with, sometimes it's just luck. They haven't done anything wrong, there's nothing they can do differently, because it depends on people wanting you. You can't change what people want, and there's only so much you can try to shoehorn yourself in what they do want. If you know that people really like chocolate cake but you only have the ingredients for a vanilla cake, you can try to make the best version of a vanilla cake you possibly can, and it can be beautiful and tasty, and you can offer it to as many people as you want. But if people are saying "no thanks, I'm sure it's lovely but I only want chocolate cake", there's nothing you can do.

DoorToTheRiver thanks I like writing a lot
That's what I mean, I feel the same as you. I'm all these good things (but have my faults, for sure), but I feel like I'm not even getting a chance to show them to people. It can't be all explained about me being too cool and dispassionate about my woes of childhood, because there are plenty of people plagued by loneliness who didn't have anything of the sort happen to them, they are just equally unlucky.

Looks like I misunderestimated you, Boldly. I'm sorry for playing down what you have been through to get to where you are, hope you're not too pissed-off with me, though, to be fair, you'd be perfectly entitled to be! I would be more than a little annoyed myself. I hate to post and run, but I've got to get to bed now as have been burning the candles at both ends, so-to-speak, and it wouldn't do the subject justice to write more in my state of knackeredness.

Take care. Will post again as soon as I can, once I've fed your post through the Enigma machine!

Ha not at all

If it's any consolation this happened in my last counselling session, she asked me something and I said "er, no" and have a strong, evidenced, thorough yet concise account of why I thought not. I didn't raise my voice or do anything remotely aggressive, I was just firm. Then she asked me if I was angry with her for disagreeing with me . Nope, just if I think I am right I will say why. I'm happy for her to counter me if she wants to but to just suggest I am angry kind of halts the momentum. If it's a real life conversation I wouldn't go into a ten minute monologue, I'd cut it right down and there'd be some back and forth so it wouldn't be nearly so intense. But counselling and MN get chapter and verse. I want my money's worth!

sleep well

Hey, not so busy after all only addicted . I had treatment today and it has gone extremely well. I was expecting it to be really bad, had been warned it is more brutal than previous treatment. But I seem to have sailed through (so far - not been hospitalised with a severe reaction eg; amongst other things it is reasonable to expect in the circs). So I'm happy!

I'm not going to argue with you today because you come back with such airtight rationale there seems - to me at least - no point. Plus I'm a bit wan, I haven't escaped treatment completely Scott-free. Only, your title asks for advice - but you reject advice. Peehaps the premise needs to be reset : you want to talk about crushing loneliness and rejection. That's more than fine for me, at least - you write so well it is a joy to read, especially as I recognise so much of it.

My advice [ ) is: get with ppl who are like you. The oft-mentioned health clique I am very reluctantly in consists of the majority so poleaxed with terror they are entirely compliant about eg treatment. I realise i simply can't express where I am coming from (angry, resistant, not so much terrified as monumentally pissed off to be facing this shit; non-compliant at root - worse things have happened to me). I can't express how I really feel and think bcs the people facing this shit are extremely vulnerable. To kick off would seriously upset their already very frail equilibrium. However, a turn off phrase - I can refer to my anger in a vague and oblique way that most recognise and don't feel threatened by - and a few ppl have heard my call and sought me out. As a consequence I have a band of a few who can step up and face this shit head on. Really, ToGo, most can't.

There are parallels to the above and your average Joe/Jo. You have survived a great deal, made sense of much of it (wow. Some achievement ) . the vast majority simply can't go there. Or won't; don't need to (haven't been smashed to pieces and had to rebuild) or whose lives are very precarious and they are terrified, like the patients I refer to above: they simply can't entertain any rocking of any boat. Or ppl drift through life, too dim, unchallenged by life or fast asleep - a major eg health crisis could show up that no effective groundwork has been put in place. Or the stakes are far too high and ppl are understandably out of their depth. Whatever. I recognise your bulldog spirit, identify with your brutal and unflinching tendency to rip away the shit to expose the truth. Without being poncey about it, it is the artist's way. (There's a book called that somewhere btw. Go find it and remind me what it says bcs I forget.)

I am a bona fide artist btw and even I forget. I hang out with Erm other folk - the majority, really - and I am taken aback angwred, confused, hurt at how taken aback angry! Attacking! Threatened! they are by some things that to me are ordinary bread and butter, no big deal.

The racism you refer to btw is alive and well, pumping away under the surface. Not flagrant - we have been socialised enough - all those ads breaking up the ground - for it to slip under the surface (just as domestic violence rarely hits these days). Especially on the continent - are you kidding! Count across the pond in, too. Things are a lot better in blighty on that front - though not perfect by any means. White ppl think it's all pretty much sorted; men think female equality is pretty much sorted, too (as do a lot of women).

Hi springy, glad today went OK

I'm not rejecting advice, please be assured I will talk about this in my next session (sessions?). A wise woman once said I can't do it all in my head (or on the internet, I guess) . in the meantime I can only say how I feel. I like a robust debate so I know it doesn't look like it, but I am thinking about this a lot and taking all suggestions and opinions on board. I'm stubborn and frustrating but I am fair as well, I hear people out.

I try things as well. I feel like I am saying I don't like fish, people are saying "you gotta try haddock, haddock will change your life", and I say " but I have tried haddock a couple of times, and cod loads of times, it's just not for me", but I am being force fed haddock. I don't know where I'm going with this fish analogy... But I know I need to get my omega 3 from somewhere, and am asking can I not get it from eggs or a supplement or something? I guess that's where I'm stuck at the moment. If people say my knees will forever be creaky if I don't eat haddock, sure, I'll try it again and hope they are correct. It won't do me any harm, even though it's revolting and makes me gag.

yea I think it's my bedtime as well

Or maybe it's more like olives, which were definitely pointless up to the age of 25 but after that I started to appreciate them occasionally and found they might complete a meal. I still get the odd one that tastes a bit rancid and makes me gag, but they have a place.

not !

See, that was me getting down with the kids re fuckhead predictive.

Not so much rejects advice then but flattens it out. Chops it up/down to nothing. Can't you get kind of needled about something? Explode a bit? Or is everything understandable. Yy everything is understandable - to God. Not acceptable, mind, but understandable. Perhaps you were forced to flatten out unacceptable things in order to survive at some crucial point and now your brains are backing you up on that.

I said I wasnt going to argue. Failed.

I failed too :) cant sleep. We can be the positive failure gang.

I guess I am just typing out my thought process, which might indicate that I always talk myself out of things. Or that I am rigid in my opinion and refuse to see other perspectives. Or that I predetermine the conclusion I want to draw and then talk myself into it. I don't think that's the case though. I think a lot but this gives me the balls to be impulsive when I want to be. I'm not reckless but I don't think that's a bad thing. And I do try new things and am thoughtful about other people's suggestions as well as my own. I suppose I just know far better how to articulate my own thoughts, than someone else's which I don't understand. So I can write and write and write about why I don't think my current situation is about my background, as I have thought about it forever. But if someone says something else, all I can do is ask why they think that, because I don't see it. I'm happy to be proved wrong. I have strong opinions but I am not wedded to them on a lot of things. I think it's possible to really believe something yet still be flexible.

I don't think everything is understandable but I can't go nuts about something unless it's hugely important and current, or I know someone is absolutely wrong and I am 100% right, which is only very specific cases. I'm still calm when I do it, I don't explode, because I want the facts to speak for themselves and not be needlessly clouded by emotion.

And I don't want people to think they have won and I am hysterical and irrational because they made me lose my rag, I've tried that and it doesn't work well for me. I am more content keeping my rag, satisfied that I am right and knowing that they are being an idiot. This is only in clear cut cases though, like when I am expected to appease a relative who is volatile and yelling at me for no good reason. I will strongly feel they are a twat, my emotions are there, they are firm, but I am in control. I will state in no uncertain terms that they are being a twat and I don't appreciate their behaviour, and then walk away and leave them to it. I won't bow to their provocation to have a slanging match, or break down in tears or start doing anything that is deemed hysterical, because then they just turn that back on me and they win.

Exploding won't do me any favours. I don't find it cathartic. It's not how I roll. Also, it just turns into another stick to be beaten with, getting accused of a hysterical overreaction, get over yourself, why do you think you're better than us blah blah blah. And then once their temper has calmed down I'm supposed to forget the whole thing and be all chummy again? No thanks. My way isn't avoiding conflict because I am scared, it's refusing to be drawn into something so I can be a whipping boy for someone else's temper. I'm expected to play peacekeeper and negotiator and comforter and be the one who makes all the offers, while the other person just beats me down until they can feel all smug and superior. I'm a good negotiator and excelleny peacekeeper, but I will only do it if the other person isnt using me. I dont avoid conflict because I'm scared of being hurt or scared of being wrong, I walk away because I refuse to let anyone take the piss out of me.

So I win with calm words. It works for me. I don't understand why people want to treat me this way, so sure, there are things I don't understand nor do I feel the need to.

Actually, I guess what I take from that is, if I think something is the absolute universal truth, I don't even need to reject /deconstruct/ flatten out/ pick apart the alternative options. Family member being a twat, abusive partner needing to be binned... They just are. I don't need to understand it, there prob isn't even anything to understand, they just are. I know I'm right, I don't need to give if further consideration.

But if there is doubt and I don't know the answers, then I will explain my case to myself, my counsellor, the internet... I will say everything that I can see to be true, but in doing so I am inviting an alternative. If I just said "no, you're wrong" that's that, my opinion is immovable. But if I say "hm, no I don't think that's the case because..." and then use a thousand words to explain my position, because I love words, it doesn't mean my opinion is immovable, it means I am engaging more than if I simply give a blunt "no" rejection, or a blind "yes" without even thinking.

So I hereby reject the suggestions that I reject every suggestion. The thread has eaten itself

Why can't I sleep!

Funny thing friendships. It's amazing how you can go through life and meet oodles of people but only form a close friendship with a few. What is it that binds some people but not others? Friendships are not always for life either. Sometimes they come and then go. One walks to road of life with them for a while and then paths diverge and you go separate ways.

Some people need to be with people constantly and are always the ones ringing up to initiate theatre trips, meals out, etc. others are more self sufficient and may acquiesce whe. A friend invites them out, but never makes the first move.

My view based on my own life is that friendships only work and last when two people meet each other's needs. Like any relationship really. Also in order to have a friend you first have to be a friend. Lastly, you make more friends in two minutes being interested in others than you do in months trying to get them interested in you!!

I like to call my friends and chat on the phone. I don't necessarily need to keep seeing them for endless lunches. I feel it's a waste of the day when I have lots to do! A chat on the phone keeps us in touch and we can support each other when necessary.

I wasn't always good with friends. Over the years I have learned - remember birthdays, to call and ask how they got on at an important interview, or ask about their holiday or anything about them, rather than bang on about my life and my holidays.

It's not possible for me to have too many friends, as I wouldn't have the time to nurture the relationship.

Some of us are outgoing and talk to anybody. That's me! I love conversing with people, girl at the checkout, road sweepers, hairdressers, you name it I chat to them all. Other people are more reserved, they don't like sharing info about themselves. They are more suspicious of people and don't trust easily. Depends on your personality and how you were brought up.

I have always been outgoing. But my upbringing was rubbish. Loads of dysfunctional stuff going on, neglect, abuse, the lot. For many, many years I dwelled on it and blamed it for every thing that was wrong in my life. Then I thought, am I going to bang on about the past forever? Or am I going to say draw a line under it. I am no longer that child, I am now in charge of my own life and am moving on.

As I live alone I do make an effort to invite people round regularly. A friend will come over for a quick lunch or a casual supper to catch up. In the winter I often invite a friend over for Sunday lunch and then we have a dog walk. Sometimes I invite two or three. Although I prefer one to one for conversation.

You know it takes time to get things right. And then, they may never be perfect. Life is a work in progress. We have to tweak it if we are not happy with it. Accept that it will never be perfect and just develop a positive approach as much as we can. We all have down days, we all have set backs. But every day is a new day to try and make it better. I know it sounds a bit 'Heidi', but I find the more I give the happier I get.

It is comforting to know that it isn't just me who feels this way. I think the problem is our English culture, in that people just aren't friendly enough to value friendships.

I moved to Turkey for a year when I was younger and the English and American ex pats were a lot more friendly it was a case of minorities stick together I think.

The relationships you describe are with toxic, dysfunctional people. You describe perfectly the scapegoat dynamic. Why do you still see your terrible and poisonous family btw. There are alternatives. You may feel your life would be more desolate with no-one at all but I assure you, life minus that life-sucking din is blessed indeed. Your friends also sound cut from the same cloth as your family.

Me no sleep either. Well, a bit, but my dear old bod woke me up in a lather aka sweat to rid my dear old bod of toxic meds. Plus I was thinking, while trying to digest a Henry James short story in bed, that the list of ppl who refuse to entertain my thrashing around anger didn't include emotionally healthy ppl facing a gruesome dx who have planted their feet not looking to the right or left. Big difference. There are healthy ppl about.

I am aghast you don't read fiction. I could helplessly cry at the immensely rich life-affirming opportunity you have missed if so. Read everything ToGo - start with the classics? Devour books in the free time you'll have once you ditch these putrid ppl from your life.

You're probably going to tell me you have read all the books. Well, read them again. Find some more. What was your degree, eng lit and it killed your love of literature? Get it back.

Re expressing anger. I recently unleashed an exocet missile at a putrid relative. Oh my GOD it was a long time coming. Like you, I wasnt going to expend the immense energy on a worthless slug, wasnt going to be accused of this or that. You know what? I don't care what they accuse me of, what they think of me. I already behave in an exemplary way and they still rail against me in scorching, merciless judgement - WITHOUT MERCY. So when that Exocet missile unleashed straight at him from my gut I wasnt upset. It didn't come via my head but straight from my gut. He threw back his head and laughed and laughed a hammer horror laugh. It didn't touch me. He tried a few vicious tactics, sneering at me about the most painful thing in my life: didn't touch me. He/they have done their worst and I don't care what they think of me. They are cracked for ever and always, what is so important about their opinion.

It wasnt blind rage but omg it was rage, neat. Smothered under layer upon layer of protecting myself from their heartless, vicious , cracked judgement. Well, it certainly was judgement time and he got it. I was so switched on I knew with clarity the line between rage and bullying and, good girl that I am, I pulled back from it. I'm not going to do that to anyone, not even him. For myself. Though I so could have, I had the choice. No, it was righteous anger.

Btw the boss who said that rubbish about trying isn't enough was fos, like the crap parent who says stop crying or I'll give you something to cry about. Bully. But you're certainly used to that. In the workplace we are often required to suck up all sorts of shit to pay the bills. Just don't believe it for heavens sake.

Hi marzipan. I don't disagree with anything you say.
Over the years I have learned - remember birthdays, to call and ask how they got on at an important interview, or ask about their holiday or anything about them, rather than bang on about my life and my holidays.

Yea...I remember birthdays, ask people how they are and show them I'm thinking of them at difficult or significant times, I am interested in people and try to get conversations going by asking them about themselves rather than telling them all about me me me, I know all these rules and agree with them. I apply them, but the hurdle is something else.

I am self sufficient and happy to do stuff alone, I will go to the cinema or whatever if I need or want to (e.g. if I decide to go on a whim one evening, I don't go through the phone book looking for someone to hold my hand). But I also sometimes invite people out, I am proactive and make the first move, try to arrange nice things to do. I don't need to see people every week of the year and try to keep in touch in whatever way - phonecalls, a text, an email... I invite people to come for a coffee or come to mine and chill out and have some food...small one or two people gatherings, not huge house parties. But I have lost count of the number of times people have let me down for better offers without remorse. Or people who don't return my calls, or repeatedly flake on commitments they have made, or something. When it is all one way, you do notice when no one ever asks you how you are, no one ever calls you for a chit chat, when people always seem to let you down if they get a better offer. If everyone seems to make you low on your priority list but suddenly remembers you when they want something out of you, you notice.

I have not done anything wrong most of the time, I've just been unfortunate that a lot of people I have come across are selfish and ruthless. The type of people who will ignore you and make you feel invisible, but will suddenly fall over themselves to make you feel like you are wanted by them if they are having a baby shower or Tupperware party or some other way of profiting from you. I'm not stupid, I can tell when I am being used.

The trouble is, the people who are all "me me me", who talk about nothing but themselves, who like being centre of attention, who never show consideration for anyone else, are the ones who have he pick of the bunch when it comes to friendships. People must think " wow, this person is having such an amazing life and is so important, look at all be stories they have, they must be worth knowing. I want a piece of that pie as then I will be amazing and interesting too". Attention seeking works. People can be extremely superficial and lazy, they often want people who will make them look good, not people who will treat them well and make them feel good. They know the people who make them feel good will be on standby when they get ditched by the superficial ones. But eventually it gets tiring being the reliable friend who only ever gets contacted when someone is in a pickle or needs someone to make up numbers and buy you presents.

I don't think all people are like this, and I always start a relationship with someone as a blank page, I'm neither too trusting nor too suspicious. I don't believe all men people are selfish bastards, I've just been a bit unlucky.

Haha Springy, no I haven't read all the books . I have all many of them piling up on my bookshelf but don't always tackle them immediately. I have a terrible habit of binge-buying books and then only picking them up ages later.

I had the option to study literature at uni as part of my degree but deliberately avoided it, partly because I didn't want to kill my love haha. But mostly because I'm a bit of a procrastinator with books (short attention span - I can cope with a 20 minute sitcom or a magazine or an hour long documentary or browsing the Internet aimlessly, but for a film or a book that I know will be a slog but an achievement to get through I have to psyche myself up ). I don't dislike fiction, I just think there is so much real stuff that is fascinating enough that I don't even need the made up stuff to entertain me. I'm currently obsessed with books about Lance Armstrong, and I love sports autobiographies, I'm not even remotely sporty! I see non-fiction, articles and lowbrow biographies as my daily cups of tea which I love. And I see fiction as the occasional points in a year when I think I will treat myself to a massive hot chocolate with whipped cream and marshmallows, and I will really take the time to enjoy and appreciate it, and it will really hit the spot.

For balance, on my last holiday, I spent a week doing mostly nothing, and I read three books - a weighty self-help tome about psychotherapy, a book about the doping scandal in professional cycling, and a totally trashy chick-lit novel that came free with a totally trashy magazine about 5 years ago. They all had their place , they all gave me something. I currently have a couple of books in my bedside cabinet. One is 100 Years of Solitude. In Spanish (I like a challenge ). It's been sat there for about a year, teasing me. I keep avoiding it, instead plumping for the Waitrose magazine, or the book about the economy, or some trash like Cosmopolitan, or something about psychology. But one day I will have the inclination to tackle it, and be rewarded I am sure. You are right though, I should read more fiction. I saw A Christmas Carol in a shop for 50p earlier this year and bought it, I haven't ready it since I was a child. I'm saving it for Christmas though!

I know how you feel. We all know when we are being blatantly used! However as long as we are all using each other it balances out!!
You can't keep taking out of the friendship/relationship piggy bank without putting in. As long as the deposits and withdrawals are balance there is no problem with the account!! If you feel you are putting in too much and not getting anything out, well, I think you need to exercise your asking muscle a bit. If people you are friends with really don't come up trumps, drop 'em, or pull right back and put them on the back burner. X

" However as long as we are all using each other it balances out!!!" haha marzipan, I have come around to this way of thinking as I have matured. The trouble comes when you put everything into the friendship meter but don't get anything out of it. And sometimes you realise that you never will get anything out of that particular meter and have to cut your losses and try something else. I've definitely been practising this in the last few years and it has made me way more confident and healthy.

I have no problem with the concept of mutual benefit, however I'm not going to lower my standards stoop to twatty behaviour because everyone else is to maintain the balance. I would rather wait for someone who balances me with good behaviour.