What pushes you from liking someone to actively getting them into your life?

[ToGoBoldly]

Hi,

What the thread title says, really.

I'm really struggling with feeling isolated and lonely. I've felt like this all my life, but it's been really intense recently so I have been feeling even more low than I ususally do.

I have a handfull of friends but no one really close, and they are all kind of fairweather friends. They've all kind of retreated away from me into their own lives, which is fine, I accept people grow apart, but it feels like everyone in the world has a network of friends and a partner, and I am being left on my own. I try really hard to get out and meet new people and stuff, but I feel like I am constantly rejected and it is really, really difficult to bear.

I have been doing some work on my feelings around this with my therapist and have been asked to drill down on why I believe I don't form close bonds with people. I can only think that people don't like me enough - they don't dislike me, but they don't like me enough to actively want me in their lives. It's as simple as that. She's tried to suggest I might be familiar with the feeling of rejection so kind of invite it, but I really don't think that's true. I try really hard to go out of my comfort zone with people - I am shy but friendly, I invite people to things, I make the first move, I volunteer myself for things, I am generous, I'm laid back and not pushy... but none of this seems to count. It feels like plenty of people think I am nice enough but they don't want or need me as a close friend. I don't blame other people for this - no one is obliged to be friends with everyone - but I just feel like everyone chooses people to be in their lives, but no one chooses me. And I've really hit a wall in trying to work this out.

This post sounds really needy and whiny, I promise I am not like this when I am trying to make friends or boyfriends! Like I said I am having counselling (for various things) but we've kind of reached an impasse on this one.

I've felt like this forever. I felt it at primary school, at secondary school, at university, at work, and in my love life. The only way I could explain clearly to my counsellor was how I felt it at primary school, so their behaviour is clear, not because they are horrible children but because they don't try to hide their feelings. But you can see more clearly with kids how people naturally gravitate towards those they want to be friends with, and that often is the really pretty girl, or the boy who is really good at football or whatever. I don't think things change a lot as an adult, it's just more subtle. And I don't think anything bad about people who have those who gravitate towards them and want to be their friend, but I just feel really sad because it feels like no one naturally gravitates towards me. It makes me feel really unloved and depressed.

I try to be proactive, no matter how many knockbacks I get I try to carry on with life and try new things, but it's really overwhelming. I asked my counsellor what she thinks I could do differently, but she is either stumped, or wants me to work the answer out myself. But I really can't think of anything beyond "people don't like me enough", which is their prerogative, but really hurtful when it feels like I'm not good enough for anyone I've met in my whole life.

So I guess I'm trying to bash out these thoughts a bit more. Am I just hideously unlucky that I never seem to meet people at the right time for them to want to pursue a friendship or relationship with me? Or what is the magic ingredient that makes people want to move things forward? I feel like there is a locked door and people will smlile and wave at me through a window and think "there's that woman, she's nice", but they won't ever invite me in, if that makes sense.

I am sorry if this sounds quite immature and self indulgent

There is a locked door, but it's somewhere inside you. Deeper emotional relationships are not about being proactive in practical terms, but in emotional terms. When you're upset, do you tell people you're upset? Do you actively seek help from them or just expect it to sort of happen because that's what you expect of a friendship? Have you ever told any of your friends that you find being friends difficult? Have you shared with any of them your feelings of childhood isolation? Some may not identify, some may be put off but there will be some who understand because they're in the same place. I think a common problem of people who become easily isolated is that you become so self-reliant that other people don't think they're needed in your life and so don't make a proper connection. You have to let other people know you need them if you want them to need you.

Does that make any sense, does this apply to you do you think?

Good point Intheprocess. I think that's true. I understand where you're coming from too. I have a big network of friends and work very hard at keeping up with them (to my DH's despair) but there are some arenas in which I draw a friendship blank and it's just like that. Usually they are social situations where I don't feel happy myself - so toddler group I love, thousands of friends, one I hate, none at all. I think the not being happy comes first and the lack of friends second, so it may be you need to find a situation in which you are happier in yourself. I would also say that once you start feeling like you've failed to find friends with a group of people, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

I have read that there is good research to say if you want someone to like you, ask them to do you a favour. I know I've responded to being on the receiving end of this: it's flattering to be asked to help someone. So that might be the answer to the question you ask in your subject line.

I do think Intheprocess is right though that sharing something of your personality/feelings/experiences might help and that you may, through other issues have got used to not doing this with people.

Thank you both for your replies.
Intheprocess, yes it does make sense.

I can see how it may apply but I feel like every time I open myself up emotionally people either back away quietly or are not nice people so end up using me.

I don't know, an example I can think of, which happened numerous times slightly different variations, is if I invite people to something, they committ and then let me down. I don't want to be whiny about it but when people do it repeatedly I politely and firmly state that I do find it quite hurtful and disappointing (which they must already know), but they don't seem to be that bothered about it. So I always feel like I am just a back up option which gets tiresome. I am sounding high maintenance - I am most definitely not!

But I find things go one of two ways - I either get written out of someone's life as soon as they have more interesting things come along, or they still like me on the back burner in case they are ever at a loose end. I get sick of chasing people so took a back seat for a while, and then a couple of my friends who I had known for a decade or so started moaning that I "never organise anything anymore!". But I was fed up of organising things only for them to flake on me every time, at the last minute. I said this to a couple of them, individually, quite matter of factly, that I don't want to chase people if they continuously let me down because, for one, it's disrespectful, two, it causes me an inconvenience because I commit time (and sometimes money). But most importantly, it makes me feel unimportant and that does not make me feel good about myself. But all they could really say back was a variation of "Oh don't be silly, you're really nice!". So they just don't seem to understand where I am coming from. I understand that plans get waylaid, and life gets in the way sometimes, but it's not occasional, it's all the time.

I just don't feel like a priority for anyone. When I felt like the whole world was rejecting me, and I was feeling like a total mug and a doormat and an idiot, I read the saying "don't make someone a priority if they only ever make you an option", and applied that because I feel it's important to have boundaries and not let people use me. That has helped me feel less like a mug. But I still feel so lonely.

I've told some of my friends that I had a difficult childhood and struggled with things but none of them seem to identify at all, they just say something glib like "oh that sounds intense. When I was that age all I worried about was playing computer games". I just don't feel like there is anyone I can talk to about things beyond pleasantries.

I've tried so many different things to find new people - hobbies, classes, work socials, nights out, joining career networks, volunteering, etc. And I enjoy the activities but I just can't seem to bond with people. And I can't start to open up to people if they don't even want to get to the first stage of knowing me superficially.

deplorabelle, the "ask someone to do you a favour" is an interesting one, I have never considered that to be honest, though I am always keen to do favours for other people. hm.

Thank you both again, I appreciate you replying.

"don't make someone a priority if they only ever make you an option"

One of my favourite sayings :(

I read an interesting thing the other day - a blog suggesting that intelligent people generally want to form deeper relationships with others than is usual. I, too, rarely make what I feel are true connections with people. I find it very easy to make casual friendships but very hard to maintain them or take them forward. I suspect at least part of this is down to my expectation of how close the friendship should be - if we don't get there in double-quick time I start to lose the will. I used to be very closed off, but I've recently become more open thanks to counselling. However, I still find I have to hold back, to a varying degree, with most people because otherwise we can't really identify with each other. It struck me that, perhaps, people count me as more of a friend to them than I count them as a friend to me, and this is because we're using different criteria to judge the level of friendship. I actually do have friends by their measure, it's just my own expectations are a little higher! This is sort of fine, but I still feel a need for a deeper connection even if I generally don't feel lonely in my life. Alone, often. Lonely, not so much.

I am struck by your description of the people you thought were popular at school.

I am wondering whether what causes part of the problem is your choice of person to try and get close to - the very people you are 'attracted' to are those who actually are not as nice as you think they might be. And so, the question is, what attracts you to people?

That might have its roots in childhood and be something to think about with the counsellor

I am interested in your post because I am struggling a bit with friendships too. Feeling left out but also unwilling to make the effort to be included. Different issue

also, what strikes me is that a lot of what you say is about your active pursing of relationships, and their eventual disappointment. you mention your childhood. I think you may be trying to satisfy a part of you that is still a child trying to claim what you needed then. And again, if you haven't done so, looking at those Primary relationships might help.

Hi Narp,

I'm really not fussy or shallow about who I want to make friends with. But it's just an observation that I have made - people who have good friends, or have successful relationships (and they are usually one and the same), seem to have something that attracts people and I feel like I must be missing something.

Like at school, the most beautiful girl had everyone falling over themselves to be her friend. She was really lovely and I liked her too, I'm sure if she had been a total bitch people wouldn't have bothered with her after being captivated by her looks. But she had something to grab people in the first place. We're not at school any more but I feel like people are just as shallow. It's more obvious now with romantic attraction rather than friends, but I see similar patterns. No one seems to pick me as the person they want to get close to... I just don't feel like I fit in anywhere, however much I try. I spoke about this in a group therapy session once half my life ago, and was hoping to drill down into it more to try to work out where I was going wrong, and the leader said "yea it must be even harder for you to fit in because you are mixed raced". Which was really unhelpful . I felt like other kids didn't like me because I was not pretty and because I was overweight, but I never even considered that they may also be a bit repelled by my ethnicity. This was when I was 16 and I still feel like crying when I remember those words!

I'm really open minded about who I make friends, and what I look for in a partner, with but I feel like I'm just not what people want and then I just don't feel like I'm meant to be on this planet. I expect my friends to respect me and I expect to be able to share good and bad times with them, but I don't think I am setting the bar too high with that.

Intheprocess, that's an interesting point. I will think about that.

ToGo

Oh, please don't get me wrong! I don't think you are fussy or shallow. I worded it badly, I think. Maybe you aren't fussy enough? Maybe the attributes of people you like are ones that people who hurt you in the past had?

Also, most people aren't that beautiful girl you describe - we all had one in our class and yet most of us weren't that girl ourselves. To aspire to be that girl is aiming really high (and maybe not worth aspiring to at all - who knows how she turned out?)

and you are not setting the bar too high to want to share good and bad times.

Oh no, I know what you meant! I will have a think

Beautiful girl is now beautiful woman and still very lovely. I hope she's happy. But I understand your point

People are terribly selfish you know, op. Our culture values selfishness as a desirable trait. Getting precisely, ruthlessly, what you want is considered admirable.

On the back of this, there's a powerful onus ,on not being needy, being 'light' ( you refer to it in your posts - 'I am far from needy' bcs you know it's a benchmark it is vital not to cross). But what is and what isn't 'needy'? You want relationships that are loving and nurturing - whereas an awful lot of people have their eye more on friendships that make them look good. Sad but true.

It's working out what you're dealing with. The phrase 'pearls before swine' comes to mind when challenging people who have no intention of nurturing or loving you - NOT bcs of you but bcs of them. They wouldn't notice a rl person a mile off, they're not interested; only interested in having a good time and giving nothing back.

Imo it becomes quite clear very early on what sort of 'friend' we're facing: someone who uses us like a good book to pick up and put back when they feel like it (and there's a place for this if we can hack it: some flakey people can be huge fun, just entirely untrustworthy) or someone who is up for developing a give-and-take friendship. It's good to identify what we're facing and to make choices about what we want.

You seem to be dotting the i's and crossing the t's on the 'right' things to do but do you, at heart, believe you are worthwhile knowing and loving? There seems to be a clear thread of rejection running through your thoughts: rejected, not good enough, something wrong with me. Imo it's good to recognise rejection as a a specific category - which plenty people suffer from (why do you think so many people are busting a gut to appear 'light'?). It may have a specific root or it may be a series of events that seemed to confirm a primal fear: am I good enough, am I liked. It is devastating to believe the negative, to believe we are not good enough and we are not liked. But it's not necessarily true at all! Especially the former!

Of COURSE you're good enough! But do you believe that? Those primary experiences (infant school) probably frightened you: oh no! I'm not good enough! Something is wrong with me, I haven't got 'it', I need to work hard to get it/catch up! Not true. You hear that? NOT TRUE. Good to uproot lies that got embedded early on.

Have a go at being a bit of a selfish bitch. People will flock, sadly. Which just goes to show eh

Positive affirmations, in the mirror (if you can stand it..), go a long way to rebooting erroneous self-beliefs. You may feel silly but they do a powerful job. Do self-esteem work - books, courses. You're far from on your own with this xx

Gosh, Boldly I could have written your posts! Im really struggling at the moment with exactly the same thing.

BTW

by Primary relationships, I meant parental ones

Another angle to think about - have you thought about this in terms of your attachment style?

There are some good articles on attachment in adults on wikipedia for example: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_in_adults

The idea would be that you have formed a particular attachment style as a result of your very earliest infant relationships (e.g. with your mother/primary caregiver and this pattern becomes wired into you. You then go through life playing out the same thing over and over using the "internal working model" that was set up in your infancy.

If you had a difficult infancy for whatever reason, whether something traumatic or even just if your mother/main caregiver was not able to be responsive, you might have developed an insecure attachment style. You can experience other people as rejecting even when in actual fact they aren't.

"I just don't feel like I fit in anywhere, however much I try."

So, you've tried hobbies and such that you enjoyed. "Enjoyed" is nice, but what really excites you? If you view human relationships as the act of sharing deeper aspects of yourself, then I feel it helps to have at least one thing that's really important to you. That way, by revealing it and sharing it you're giving the other person a gift, which they will hopefully reciprocate. If they don't have anything to give back, then maybe they're not worth it anyway. For me, I have a real thing for intellectual sci-fi movies - when drunk (thankfully rarely these days) it turns me into the most tremendously boring and pretentious wanker, but at least it shows I have some passion. Never underestimate the allure of being passionate about something! Actually, the few close friends I have I would describe as very passionate people, and that passion is my favourite thing about them. Everyone else just sort of drifts through my life as, I assume, they drift through their own.

I like your username, btw, nice combination of ironically self-aware optimism with shameless pedantry. I was aiming to communicate a sense of "ongoing change as a permanent state of being" with mine (I blame the counselling). Would be interesting to have a thread explaining why MNetters choose their particular usernames. Could probably personality-type people by their usernames.

Erm daffs on the table on the day I joined?

Oh dear... Username analysis. Mine might not bear scrutiny :-/

Thanks all for your replies.

You read me like a book, Intheprocess. I love a bit of pedantry my mind is at odds with my body on this, my chubby fingers make mistakes which makes me sad. Grammar used to be a hobby (hey, I wonder why I never had any friends?! ). I'm not a Trekkie though.

Springy you helped me a great deal on a thread I had a while ago with a different username. So I appreciate your input

Hm was going to reply but the story of my primary relationships is a long one. Perhaps I should sleep on it.

So I've been chewing the cud a bit.

My primary relationships were not the best, no. My mum was a young single parent. Most of the childcare was done by her parents, my dear grandparents who were absolute diamonds who loved my brothers unconditionally, and I miss them both dearly. But, they were grandparents, getting on a bit and not in the best of health. Also they didn't speak English as a first language, my gran especially had pretty broken English. I was not encouraged to speak their language as a child (though I ended up studying it at university, so had the aptitutde!), and made to feel a bit embarrassed about it in fact, so it was a weird set up where my gran spoke her language and I spoke English. Which was fine, we communicated fine but it wasn't kind of teaching your child life lessons like a parent might do.

My mum worked in a low paid job and had a social life. I had middle child syndrome and was also the only girl so had different expectations placed on me. When I was about 5, my mum started seeing an absolutely horrible man who she eventually married just before I went to secondary school. He was extremely emotionally abusive but that there is a long story which I don't have the wherewithall to go into.

A couple of examples from my childhood though:

So my mum spent a lot of time either at work or with this man, and when she got married she took me to live with her, away from my grandparents, but not very far away. My older brother refused to go, my younger brother was brought along some time later. My grandmother was devastated, my granddad was his lovely self but I am sure was also sad. My older brother and my mum's sister made me feel like a she-devil betrayer for wanting to move with them. I didn't want to move, but if you're an 11 year old girl you do what your mother tells you to do, surely? It was like everyone was blaming me for making a choice but I didn't feel like I had the choice nor did I make it, it's just what I was told would happen. My stepdad was typically horrible to me, my mum and the rest of us in this time. It flipped between my mum moaning at me for being clingy, not bothering to spend time with me, telling me off for things that I didn't do wrong, berating me for being overweight, arguing with my stepdad about me....I remember when I had an argument with him she said something like "You have to realise that not only has she not got the mind of an 11 year old, she hasn't got the body either" and it made me feel like a complete freak. I can't even remember what this argument was about and why this comment was made, but jesus, I was 11!

My weight was a major problem - I was an overweight child, but my whole family was overweight. However I was the one singled out, probably because I was the girl. I was relentlessly berated, by my family more than strangers, about being fat, even though I wasn't the one buying the food or feeding me , and constantly told how disgusting and shameful it was. Strangers would mock me too but I was quite resilient about it up to a certain age and took it on the chin.

She gleefully told one of her friends when I started my periods when I was really young and I found that really embarrassing. I was 10 years old and walking near them on a shopping trip, and could hear her laughing to her friend about the fact I had started my periods and it was really really awful. Her friend is a lovely woman and didn't partake in this mockery as far as I remember, but I just felt so ashamed of myself. And even now, over 20 years on, I still feel really upset that she never spoke to me about the whole thing but used it as a hilarious topic of conversation for her friends.

I was abused by a slightly older relative when I was around that age (it must have been between 7-9ish, I can't remember exactly when or how long it went on but it was before I was 10). But I know this was a terrible thing and it wasn't my fault and blah blah blah but I don't see how it is an explanation or excuse for why I can't make friends now.

I developed an eating disorder in my mid-teens. My mum did a lot of flapping about in a "how could this have possibly have happend?" way but looking back I'm amazed I didn't just kill myself instead. My stepdad was furious about not being involved in my treatment, not because he cared and wanted to help but because he was a controlling and abusive cunt of a man. Anyway... that went on, my mum finally divorced when I was doing my A-levels and a couple of years later we went to visit some family abroad. And there was one day when I went shopping with her and my aunt (gran's sister). The aunt said, in her language, "ToGoBoldly is a bit fat, isn't she?" and then my mum said she prefers that to how I had been a year or two before, and then proceeded to tell her all about my eating disorder in gleeful detail! I don't know if she thought I didn't understand the language or what, but I understood every word and I was part furious, part devastated and hurt that she would betray me in this way. She never spoke to me about my problems but would happily tell the world as if she were talking about EastEnders or something. It was embarrassing and completly disregarded my privacy and I just felt like a piece of gossip. I was angry with my mum and then she was angry at me for being angry. It was horrible.

So yea, I have some issues. There are plenty more where they came from. My mum and I get on fine now, but she is not my confidante and I don't trust her a single bit.

But I really can't see why this is a problem now when it comes to me making friends and relationships. I'm 31!

Agh I need a drink now. Not sure where I am going with this.

Oh and my dad was an absent father, he didn't try to see me since I was a toddler, didn't pay maintenance, nothing.

He tracked me down on Facebook when I was in my mid 20s and said he thinks about me lots (gee thanks) and kept trying to pressure me to meet him and his two other children, who were pre-teens at the time. I said it wasn't a good time (it wasn't, my granddad was dying) , he said it was a good time and I had no reason to wait. I had no time for a slightly aggressive man who didn't bother with me while I bwas growing up and now expected me to accommodate his whims of wanting to know his adult daughter.

Wow, you poor thing that sounds terrible. How wonderful if you to come through all that.

I don't know if you've discussed it with your counsellor but it does look as though that would be worth exploring.

I stress about friendships as well. I think it genuinely gets a lot harder as people get older and it depends on meeting people you like and seeing them very regularly. I have a friend from school who I love dearly and have thought of a BFF but we're at opposite ends if the country and don't see each other very often. I've recently started to 'let people in' at work and am starting to have people to go for coffee with etc. I think taking it slowly .

I also found headspace meditations on mindfulness really helpful for visualising good things happening, first to people you love, then to people you're indifferent to and then to people you dislike. It helped me feel stronger about just carrying on.

Sorry for the essay. Lots of luck

But I really can't see why this is a problem now when it comes to me making friends and relationships. I'm 31!

Erm. Erm. It has everything to do with difficulties in relating. How could it not? This is major stuff - and it's had a devastating effect - as it would

I'm so so sorry you had such a terrible time. No wonder you are were all over the place, you have never been able to settle. Nowhere and nothing was safe.

As for you're 31! Love, this stuff chews people up well into their dotage. I kid you not. It's not a case of deciding to not let it affect you - it did and it still is. The fruits are there for you to see in your current life.

I'm not a therapist so I'm not going to therapise you. But this needs professional work over a period of time, bit by bit. I know that's tiresome - it was bad enough at the time, we'd rather leave it behind. But, sadly, it doesn't work like that.

Some of your story resonates with me, I too find friendships disappointing and often feel like I am someone's friend, but they are not mine.

I had a difficult mother who (like yours) would over share personal information about me with other members of the family or acquaintances. I find trust and sharing personal information quite difficult and end up listening to others and being quite shallow about my own needs and experiences. For me, the times when I have shared information with friends, I end up being quite paranoid or insecure that they know too much and have indeed felt badly let down by others lack of discretion or feel they throw back at me something that is intensely personal.

I sometimes find myself backing-off from people who are getting too close, and I am not quite sure why that is, but it actually works for me.

As a result my personal preference is to keep people at arm's length most of the time. I am fairly happily married with a grown-up DS so am not particularly lonely, but feel regret that most of my relationships are really quite shallow.

I do have quite low self-esteem sometimes but would love to have friendships that are deeper or possibly more intellectual, but have learned as I have got older to accept that most friendships are really about habit and shared experiences and actually relish not having to invest to much of myself in other people, who to be frank often disappoint me.

Christ on a bike Boldly go! you have been through so much adversity I just do not know what to say:(

Please accept a bloody big comforting hug for me if you will please you poor soul:-)

I feel the same as justaboy. I'd like to give you a hug too.