What pushes you from liking someone to actively getting them into your life?

[ToGoBoldly]

Hi,

What the thread title says, really.

I'm really struggling with feeling isolated and lonely. I've felt like this all my life, but it's been really intense recently so I have been feeling even more low than I ususally do.

I have a handfull of friends but no one really close, and they are all kind of fairweather friends. They've all kind of retreated away from me into their own lives, which is fine, I accept people grow apart, but it feels like everyone in the world has a network of friends and a partner, and I am being left on my own. I try really hard to get out and meet new people and stuff, but I feel like I am constantly rejected and it is really, really difficult to bear.

I have been doing some work on my feelings around this with my therapist and have been asked to drill down on why I believe I don't form close bonds with people. I can only think that people don't like me enough - they don't dislike me, but they don't like me enough to actively want me in their lives. It's as simple as that. She's tried to suggest I might be familiar with the feeling of rejection so kind of invite it, but I really don't think that's true. I try really hard to go out of my comfort zone with people - I am shy but friendly, I invite people to things, I make the first move, I volunteer myself for things, I am generous, I'm laid back and not pushy... but none of this seems to count. It feels like plenty of people think I am nice enough but they don't want or need me as a close friend. I don't blame other people for this - no one is obliged to be friends with everyone - but I just feel like everyone chooses people to be in their lives, but no one chooses me. And I've really hit a wall in trying to work this out.

This post sounds really needy and whiny, I promise I am not like this when I am trying to make friends or boyfriends! Like I said I am having counselling (for various things) but we've kind of reached an impasse on this one.

I've felt like this forever. I felt it at primary school, at secondary school, at university, at work, and in my love life. The only way I could explain clearly to my counsellor was how I felt it at primary school, so their behaviour is clear, not because they are horrible children but because they don't try to hide their feelings. But you can see more clearly with kids how people naturally gravitate towards those they want to be friends with, and that often is the really pretty girl, or the boy who is really good at football or whatever. I don't think things change a lot as an adult, it's just more subtle. And I don't think anything bad about people who have those who gravitate towards them and want to be their friend, but I just feel really sad because it feels like no one naturally gravitates towards me. It makes me feel really unloved and depressed.

I try to be proactive, no matter how many knockbacks I get I try to carry on with life and try new things, but it's really overwhelming. I asked my counsellor what she thinks I could do differently, but she is either stumped, or wants me to work the answer out myself. But I really can't think of anything beyond "people don't like me enough", which is their prerogative, but really hurtful when it feels like I'm not good enough for anyone I've met in my whole life.

So I guess I'm trying to bash out these thoughts a bit more. Am I just hideously unlucky that I never seem to meet people at the right time for them to want to pursue a friendship or relationship with me? Or what is the magic ingredient that makes people want to move things forward? I feel like there is a locked door and people will smlile and wave at me through a window and think "there's that woman, she's nice", but they won't ever invite me in, if that makes sense.

I am sorry if this sounds quite immature and self indulgent

Sorry, I took ages to type that - watching crappy Downton out of the corner of my eye.

I relate to musical themes and playing them over and over, obsessed. I like clubbing - also don't touch a drop of anything bcs the music is enough - bcs of the repetition. Trance indeed. Or gregorian chant - repetition. And why not, we've had a shit time.

I've never got into any hard stuff (drugs etc) - remarkable, really, but already massively wobbly and couldn't hack out of body/mind anything. Eating disorder, yes; fags now vaping (nicotine - no intention of stopping that), but nothing major.

Ah yes, codependency. I forgot the codependence That's got me into some pretty bad scrapes..

ToGoBoldy

Not just me then! Well, that's a relief. What was that 90's track? If you're interested, I'm currently hooked on: soundcloud.com/wrechiski1/wrechiski-riptide-asot730-rip

Springydaffs

Apparently so, though one raised very much out of context. The internet tells me my brain is 100% female, if that's any consolation. Will now go to bed wondering if I've upset the balance of the thread brain, that's enough analysis for one day.

Lesser

Second paragraph. Exactly.

Who cares? I don't. I hope you don't -

I've already said I have weird friends. Joke!

Nah, don't care.

Though maybe I should. Should I? Also a joke. Probably.

Too tired. Anyone else here find it really, really hard to get to bed even though you know you have to and have already stayed up too late and are going to be like a zombie tomorrow?

I don't think you have, Intheprocess .

Female brain, eh? My friends often tell me I am so unemotional and logical that I think like a boy . And unemotional, massive lol. If only they knew.

This is my usual obsessive go-to song here, specifically 3m10s to 3m40s. I don't even know what it is, the chords, the crunchy guitars, the voice of the man of my teenage dreams... but it makes my heart swell. I remember being 14 and hearing the song for the first time on Mary Ann Hobbs' night time show and waiting to hear it again so I could record it onto a cassette. My life was so shit then but I could run away with the radio every night. Simpler times. You can't run away from your head forever, I guess.

I'm terrible at going to bed, yes. Probably 30% of all my problems

"Or I concoct terrifying fantasies of somehow finding myself going out with one other person and running out of things to say, or being too terrified to think of anything to say, or anything that won't out me as a complete loser"

weevil I know exactly what you mean. I remember it happening to me at school and I literally would not know what to say to people. I'm a bit more skilled at conversation now but still have panic about not knowing what to say and just being stumped and freaking out at silence. I even get anxious aboutnthis if meeting with someone I have known for years.

Oh good

I've recently made what I thought were? some good friends who were all over me. Well, that's nice. Young, 20s, recently got married. Shared house: 'come and live with us! Rent out/sell your house and live with us!' They think I'm 'rad' - again, that's nice to be wanted . The guy wants to take me out to lunch on my birthday. I'm terrified: what will we talk about flattered. All goes well, plenty to talk about - he has a good brain - but I'm thinking 'what's this about? Does he see me as his mum (at one point he hints I'd get on with his mum - but I met her at the wedding and I Don't Think So), what's going on, where does this fit, why didn't his wife come, he's not going all wrong with the older woman thing is he' - anything but he's my friend, he likes my company and wants to treat me to a birthday lunch . Then I started thinking he felt sorry for me and I got into a funk about that. I thought I talked too much/not enough/about the wrong things. Then for two solid days afterwards I thought he felt sorry for me and was bouncing to my rescue bcs he thought I had nobody to have a birthday lunch with (I did, as it happens, but I could easily not have bcs I don't do any birthday planning, see 'rejection', above). I really went down the road with that and had an awful few days in the grip of shame. I even knew it was shame, said to myself 'springy, this is shame' but I couldn't shake it off.

Exhausting! I still wonder if it was an elephant my 'knower' was telling me about

Go to bed late TICK

You sound like a really lovely, interesting, intelligent person.

Just wanted to add that.

Intheprocess you said something about passion way back at the start of this thread, mine used to be music actually. I used to adore the radio (never watched much television and I do not have the attention span for films) but I was obsessed with music, particularly late 90s indie . I kind of fell out of love in my late teens/early 20s when I came across smug, sneery pretentious people, often boys, who would be very judgemental about my tastes and I felt like a fraud. I didn't fit into the scene, an unattractive, mixed raced shy girl couldn't cut it with the guitar crowds with their beer and cool attractive girls and smoking and whatnot. I still stuck with my old cds in private though, my secret passion.

These days my passion is dancing, I think, so a similar part of the colour wheel. I always wanted to do it but never had a chance when I was a kid. I finally bit the bullet and found a class in my late 20s and then it took over my life, I do it for several hours a week. I'm no professional but I'm decent at it now. My teacher told me out of the blue when I was leaving the building the other day that they could really see an improvement, and I was inwardly beaming with pride. It's a pretty big passion and a creative outlet for my soul. But it doesn't get people interested in me. When I talk about dance they switch off. A newish friend of a friend suggested that I put men off when I'm out and about because I am too good at dancing and enjoying myself too much, which is intimidating, apparently. Whereas before I started dancing people suggested I appeared too shy and withdrawn which also put men off from approaching me. I don't know what it is with all these Goldilocks men. But I don't want to lose another passion because it doesn't fit in with how I should supposedly conduct myself.

Bloody hell ToGo. Your friends are SHIT Get some new friends, they sound beyond vile. Who the fuck are they???

YY to dancing. I have found a d&b club I go to where they don't bat an eyelid at my age (after the d&b dance workshop I went to in crap clothes and all the young kids, in all the gear, practically convulsed with embarrassment that I was even there) and I d-a-n-c-e Ibiza next, they don't care about age either who to go with though

There are songs/themes that run through me when I'm out and about - really run through me to the core: transported. It's the best thing.

I think I stay up late bcs it's slip-sideways time. No pressure: nothing I ought to be doing. that and I'm not very good at looking after myself

I couldn't get any of those songs on my tablet btw

So many of your feelings/experiences resonate with me, Boldly at least I suppose it's good to know none of us are alone...

I'm struggling at the moment. I've been 'treated' on and off for symptoms of anxiety and depression since I was 17 although they've always avoided a diagnosis of 'depression', they've said, to avoid the stigma of having it on my records. For work. But I don't really get it from work as much, it's all personal/social life stuff.

I need to go back. It's worse now than it's ever been. I think that it's because I've realised just how much of an impact it's having on my life and I can't stop it on my own.

I feel like such a failure though. I know how people with MH probs are talked about by professionals who don't understand it (and there are many). I don't want to be talked about like that.

I found it very difficult to hear the gp read back my asd referral letter. It was like hearing someone else being talked about but I recognised it all.

The last time I went to the gp I said I felt like I couldn't manage being a grown up. And that is how I feel. The world feels big and scary all the time.

I do find I get obsessed about things too. I wonder sometimes if that's because it's something I can focus on and keep the other stuff out of my head. I find it difficult to keep the house tidy and organised because I can't unpick it all in my head to know where to start. I do. But it's hard.

I don't have anyone round to the house. Ever. No one else ever visits (except my exh) because I can't cope with the anxiety of having someone else in here. It's my safe place.

I find I can be more honest about it all now. If someone changes the conversation before I've finisbed, I find it difficult to leave that train of thought behind and move onto another to the point where I can't pick up the new conversation. So now I just tell people I need to finish it and do. But I have to make a joke out of a very integral part of myself when i do.

I'm reading about PTSD as suggested by weevil. I still don't understand. It goes on about childhood trauma and so on but I am struggling to equate my life with the words trauma, neglect, abandonment and so on. Was my childhood and young adulthood really that terrible? I really don't know what a normal one looks like but I am sure mine could have been much worse. I muddled through, I wasn't wailing about it or anything. Surely most people come across some sort of shit at some point in their life, but they still manage to connect with people and be fulfilled?

For example, this could almost be part of my story: "A meek, visibly fearful client of mine suffered devastating sexual seductions by trusted male figures on three occasions in her adult life. Over time we traced these back to a childhood betrayal by a trusted uncle, the only seemingly kind caretaker of her childhood. He preyed on her loneliness and parental abandonment and gradually took seemingly appropriate physical affection, one increment at a time, into contact that became increasingly sexual. Since her healthy angry elf-protective instinct and ability too say “no” was extinguished by the time she was in pre-school, she was unable to protest his sexual violations. On subsequent occasions in her life, a minister, a doctor and then a therapist exploited her via a reenactment of this original scenario. She was so lost in flashback all three times that she did not protest their exploitive betrayals, but only knew how to turn her anger inward and blame and shame herself."

So I get all that. I don't blame myself but I do feel embarrassed and ashamed etc etc. But even if I start doing what the textbooks suggest and get angry at anyone who has ever abused me or neglected me or whatever, it won't change anything. I will still be alone. I can't see how it matches up to how I feel now.

I guess (last post of talking to myself ha), I am wondering what good it would do to reopen old wounds? It's not suddenly going to make people start liking me.

I know I keep saying it but your current circumstances are the biggest indication of what happened in the past. It has nothing to do with how well or not you have coped with a crap start in life (especially as you are particularly resourceful and resilient), it has everything to do with what happened in the first place. What is happening now is an advertisement of what happened in the past. eg your revolting friends (they really are, ToGo. Frenemies indeed)

eg if someone has a back problem, which often develops over time, no-one is going to say to them 'what's wrong with you! so what a car hit your car from behind/you had a ski-ing accident when you were young, just get over yourself. You're an adult, put it behind you'. The back won't let you put it behind you, an injury took place which knocked everything out of kilter and the effects become apparent over time. So, if someone eg finds they have a numb foot that could be an indication there was a back injury somewhere along the line. Foolish to ignore it because these things get worse over time...

Same with revolting relationships: something happened that knocked things out of kilter and the result is a high level of poor quality relationships. You know as well as anyone that you have tried everything, been resourceful and brave - but you're still not seeing the results of your efforts; the same old same old keeps reappearing.

I like to think that health insists on being heard, tips up again and again and refuses to be ignored. Good to listen to it! Something happened, something MUST HAVE happened for this to be the end result. yy it's hard to get our heads around but what you describe about your current relational landscape does indicate that trauma, abuse, neglect happened somewhere along the line to throw the whole thing off balance.

A lot of times our parents didn't mean to hurt us and did their best (though not always, certainly ) - they probably got the same shit handed down to them and passed it on. ime you can separate the loss, grief, anger of recognising you had poor parenting with acceptance and forgiveness (though it's a fine balance and we can career from one to the other along the recovery continuum; hopefully settling, finally, on peace and acceptance that we were handed a shit deal - no wonder we struggled).

I appreciate I am presenting a simplistic view - there can be a number of reasons why people may struggle relationally and it is not necessarily because of poor parenting. But from what you've said and how you present, it does look like you fall into the category of disordered and damaging parenting somewhere along the line.

The challenge is to accept the evidence and pull the thread to see what's there. When I first went into therapy - bcs of shit relationships - I genuinely thought my family was fine. A few problems, certainly, but generally 'normal'. What an eye-opener therapy was. It made sense of a lot of things I feel I'm repeating myself here - have I already said that on this thread? the very phrase?

re back injuries: people often forget the original injury and are surprised to hear it was the root of current problems, especially as they have to dig around in their memory to remember it. They sometimes do remember the original injury/s but say 'oh that? it was nothing, just a scrape'. But it clearly wasn't 'nothing' because it has gone on to cause a lot of problems.

I use this analogy because the skeletal framework is finely tuned, just like our emotional/mental health. A severe knock can knock things off kilter, which only becomes apparent over time. Sometimes we 'get away with it' but that's luck more than anything imo, nothing to do with a gung ho approach.

Yes, I get what you say Springy, and it makes sense in a way that I hadn't thought of before. For example, my emotions can be a skeleton and my rational, practical side are the muscles. So my muscular system can be working fine, and get pretty strong even, but if the bones are fucked up the muscles alone will wear out, snap and stop working and then it will all fall apart. So it's like a musculoskeltal system, rather than two separte entities.

But you can't undo the car accident, or unfall down the ski slope 20 years ago. So I find "I had an accident, and it hurt my back, it was bad times and still hurts me now" really unproductive.

I hope this doesn't sound too combative ha. My counsellor has been trying to get this out of me too.

You go back and relive it - the pain, the loss, the fear, the betrayal - in a safe space; then reframe it with love, compassion, protection. Tis why therapy takes time.

And, in case you're wondering (and I know you will be), NO, YOU CAN'T DO THIS IN YOUR HEAD. It has to be lived, actually experienced. You can't do this stuff in your head. In fact, you have to turn your head off to do it.

Tis why therapy times time...

What you've seen so far, and keep seeing, are the ugly 'weeds' of what happened to you in the first instance. When you reframe it with love, compassion and protection for the little kid who was defenceless and violated, you start to see the 'flowers'.

I know that's cheesy - but what the heck. Life is fucking HARD when we've had all this shit to deal with.

Sometimes muscles group around injury to protect it - but that doesn't help the injury; in fact can make it worse. Muscles can develop to compensate for injury that are not helpful in the long run.

I think the point I'm making is that the results of injury can be undone with the correct therapy to realign the damaged system and get it running how it was designed to run. Sensitive, ongoing work, to undo not only the original injury but also compensatory muscular activity.