Can we discuss monogamy without a bunfight?

[LeaningTowerOfPizza]

I've namechanged because I'm not optimistic there won't be a bunfight!

Anyway: I read a thread here recently in which the OP divulged having feelings for someone outside their marriage and it got me thinking about my own marriage, values, upbringing and societal norms.

I've been happily married to my best friend for more than a decade. Neither of us has ever strayed or felt the need to but we've recently decided to open the marriage based on sexual desires. I'm wary of posting exactly what because I don't want a barrage of posts claiming I'm on my school holidays but I consider what we want to be perfectly normal. We're both happy with our choices and we both KNOW what the other would be doing [nothing has happened yet] which I feel is the main problem with societal attitudes towards sex outside marriage - deceit - though I'd like other views on this.

Some people will say sex is a need and some say it's a want, each to their own. Some others say you should be able to meet all sexual needs/wants/desires with your significant other, otherwise you're basically an unloving, uncaring hornbag who hasn't the will nor the desire to really make their marriage work. I think that's really unfair. I also think it's what leads some [some, not all!!] people to believe they have fallen for someone else when it's quite possible they are just lusting after something different. For instance, I'm bisexual. Dh is never going to meet that desire for me. I could happily go the rest of my life without being with a woman again but, given the chance, sure, I'd go for it. It doesn't mean I love Dh less or want to run away or that anything is wrong in my marriage.

I chose him, he chooses me but we're both happy to choose different if the opportunity presents itself.

I don't think we're fooling ourselves but I'll put myself out there for your opinions - do you think we are? Do you think it's possible to separate sex and love or - being emotional creatures, do you think it's playing with fire?

I would be devastated if DH suggested this. I would be hurt that I wasn't enough for him and so jealous if he had sex with someone else. I would leave him if he cheated, trust is the basis of our marriage.

If it works for others great but not for me. Perhaps we are lucky that our sex life is good for us both and has been for the twenty six years we have been married.

SolidGoldBrass yes exactly! There are loads of people for whom monogamy works brilliantly and is fulfilling and simple. There are also loads of people for whom it may not work perfectly as such, but it's the best option for all kinds of reasons.

The only thing I'd like to happen, from speaking openly about being poly (and we're out to everybody - families, co-workers, everybody - we don't bang on about it but I will occasionally drop into conversation 'oh, my husband's on a date tonight so I'm planning an Orange Is The New Black marathon while he's out' or similar) is for people to recognise that monogamy is a choice, not necessarily the only option. And for people to be able to say 'yes, this is why I value monogamy, this is why it works for me, and this is why it's such an important thing in my relationship', as well as for some people to say 'huh, okay, maybe there's a different way we could do this' (or even 'huh, we were already doing this thing, and maybe it's not as weird as we thought...').

PontyGirl the 'do you ever get jealous?' thing is an interesting question, because to answer it I want to back up a sec. I don't think jealousy in itself is necessarily a bad emotion, it's how you deal with it that matters. I think it's a 'second-level' emotion, in that there's generally something else underneath it, and if you can dig out whatever the something-else is, the jealousy is usually resolved. So yes, I do occasionally get jealous, and so do other partners, and for me on every occasion it's been down to not feeling fulfilled in myself about something - if I haven't been getting enough time with someone, for example, then I might have a little wobble about them spending time with other people doing things I'd like to do. But as long as you're able to be fairly self-examinatory (is that a word? it is now) about that sort of thing, and speak openly with your partners about fears and worries, you can usually uproot it pretty quickly. But mostly, no, it's really not something that comes up for us very often; certainly not for the last few years.

And obviously that's spoken from a very fortunate position of never having been in a relationship that's been based on deceit or malice or manipulation - lucky me - so those jealousy 'warning bells' are always easily-unpicked false alarms. In a bad relationship, obviously those emotions serve a different purpose.

beavington your second paragraph absolutely nails it. The joy of a new relationship is a really special thing - and being able to share that with someone else you love, or being able to be on the inside watching your partner fall head-over-heels for someone and sharing all their excitement and happiness and fizz with you... it's something I find just utterly utterly joyful.

I am certain it helps living in a large city though, yes. I have no idea as yet how it fits in with family life, but I know a few friends with small children who are poly, and it works for them! I'm pretty confident that (like any new mum) whatever assumptions I have about what my life will look like in a few months are about to be proved wrong I'm sure if I had an additional stable relationship at the moment, that would likely be a huge support in the early months, but I don't and it's certainly not something I'll be seeking out for a while!

Sorry for the massive ramble - like I say, I can only speak for how it works for me but I've tried to answer questions in the hope that it's an interesting read for a few people!

Good friends of ours are in a polyamorous relationship, they have been for years and they are very happy together. So I've seen first hand how well it can work if everyone has really brought in to it.

I can also understand how the physical act of sex is more important to one partner, and how some people can separate sex from love/intimacy, and how they might want to have sex with other people while still loving their spouse very much.

However, I'm with some of other posters that the actual idea of DP sleeping with someone else... Christ, no. I could not handle it.

Ditto imagining me being with someone else - I like to daydream as much as the next person but again, I know if I did anything I would feel that I was cheating.

But that's all personal reactions, nothing different from how people have different thoughts on marriage v cohabitation and all that.

One thing about open marriages, polyamory etc that intrigues or worries me is whether it is all about the novelty? You know, the excitement of a first kiss, the butterflies in your stomach, that moment where you work out whether you have chemistry in bed together. Which are all very lovely things, but for me personally, nowhere near more important than a relationship based on trust and friendship and respect. Not that I mean to suggest that anyone in an open marriage doesn't have trust, respect and friendship - just I couldn't run the risk of losing a long-term relationship (a true love, though I know that's a boaky phrase) for the brief thrill of a new first kiss.

I think that if two people are happy to consent to the person they love the most, trust the most, would give their all for to go off shagging other people then that's really nobody else's business.

I do think though that it's a bit naive and smug to think that just because your partner is out having sex with someone else with your knowledge that everything about that encounter is out in the open, and that actually being given permission to have sex with someone else opens up a whole new avenue for deception and emotional involvement. Because if you know that your partner is spending the weekend with someone else, then you might not give it the same kind of thought, because he is coming back to you. Except that you have no idea of what he is telling his ow about the time they spend together, the feelings they have for each other, the relationship he has with you.

There was a poster on here only last week who had got involved with someone while she was in an open relationship. the problem was that because it started out with just sex, by the time she was emotionally involved it was too late - iyswim. And in truth it is rarely just sex there are emotions involved in having sex especially for the party being left at home while their partner is out with someone else.

I couldn't personally do it, and I do wonder how equal many open relationships really are and how many people agree to them purely because they don't want to be left for someone else, but spend endless time sad at home while their partner is out fulfilling their sexual needs - the ones which they know they can't fulfill.

Poly relationships work fine as long as you're both committed to the rules you've agreed, and you're okay to keep checking in with each other and amending those rules as necessary.

My sister has been doing poly for about 5-6 years. She has her DH, and another primary male partner, plus a more casual female girlfriend. Her primary male partner has another primary female partner, and that female partner also has another male partner, but who lives in another city. My BiL doesn't have any other partners himself but is free to seek them if he wants to. (He did try seeing a couple of people, but realised he was just doing it for the sake of it.)

The four of them socialise as a quartet very regularly. I've been out with them numerous times and they are all very close knit and there is no jealousy or resentment or anything.

But there is a LOT of organisation needed and communication as well. I personally couldn't be bothered, but that's more about my introversion than anything else.

Monogamy definitely doesn't work for me and never has. My last LTR I told the guy "I'm not monogamous by nature" when we were about 3 months in - he looked all upset and said he wanted us to be exclusive and wouldn't consider carrying on with me otherwise. It was a dealbreaker for him. so I said okay fine, we'll be exclusive and I will let you know if I want to bang someone else. I had fallen for him so was willing to make that sacrifice. We moved in together after over a year. Guess what happened? He "cheated" on me three times. The fucking hypocrite.

So any future potential partners will be told "monogamy ain't in it, pal", no exceptions!

I can't do with the whole relationships thing though, I just like to have a friendly relationship with sex partners.

OP, have you had a read through The Ethical Slut?

I think it can work, IF you have informed mutual consent.

That really is the key. If both partners want it, discuss it, make it work, then you're fine. A bit like any sex really - If you've got mutual enthusiastic consent you're grand, if not, you're in trouble.

Where you get issues is where polygamy isn't really a mutual choice - certain religions for example who practice it, but oh! Only for the menz?.. no sorry ladies you can't have a couple of husbands. Oh no. No siree, that'd make you a slutty whore....

A friend of my sisters back home in the UK was married, couldn't have kids, husband brought a new, younger model in, religious marriage etc. cue absolute horror for her. She was beaten by his family and treated. Appallingly.

But two consenting adults going into it with eyes open, having discussed it? Fine by me.

If it's something you're both genuinely alright with then fine, the dynamics of your relationship are your own business.

I couldn't do it myself. The idea of being able to have fun elsewhere might be appealing in some ways but I would be jealous as fuck if my boyfriend did the same so for that reason it's a total non starter for me.

I think for a lot of people, more so men than women, monogamy doesn't work. Long term relationships get boring, the excitement fades and often some people look outside of the relationship to add the excitement of a new relationship while not wanting to leave the marriage.

Generally this isn't accepted because when you're emotionally involved with someone you normally get jealous if they're interested in someone else. So monogamy is an ideal and although a lot of people would like to be monogamous as it doesn't bring complications in reality it's too difficult for a lot of people hence all the affairs that happen.

so how do you deal with things like contraception failure if you're in a poly relationship? I would assume that everyone uses condoms to guard against STD's but even condoms aren't fail-safe. And if you fall pg then I can imagine that even the most trusting of partners must have some concerns as to whether the baby is his.

I find it interesting. It's not for me, I'm a one person kinda gal, but I don't judge anyone who does it.

I have a friend who is in a poly relationship. She lives with her husband and her husband's girlfriend, who is also her ex girlfriend. She has a long term long distance relationship with a boyfriend. Neither of them just go out and shag other people randomly, they discuss with each other. Respect and trust are paramount. I really admire both of them.

Not judging, I think people should be free to conduct their relationships how they chose.

But it is totally beyond my realm of understanding - mind you, I hate the initial dating stage of relationships anyway! And don't deal with casual sex very well.

I too find it interesting. I think you would need to be very confident in yourself and your main (?) relationship.

My husband and I have recently decided to open our marriage and I am seeing someone else. He is probably less bothered but knows the option is there for him. It's not an easy road to choose but after much soul searching I think it's part of who I am.
Good to know we're not alone :)

It's not for me, I don't think. Although I have been in an open relationship in the past and happy with it. I can't imagine myself doing it outside of that boozy teenage lifestyle. But I think it would be great if it was more normal and accepted. I think it would be nice if people who want to have multiple relationships and/or extramarital casual sex could feel free to be open about that and not feel that they need to either force that down and make themselves miserable in a marriage they find really hard to stay faithful to, or to lie to their partner and conceal affairs etc. Just means everybody can be more honest and upfront about what they actually want.

I also don't think that it would eliminate affairs. For some people the actual act of betrayal and/or the secrecy is the exciting part.

But overall although I am not interested in Polyamory for myself I think it could only be a good thing if it was more accepted.

I imagine that if an unplanned pregnancy occurs, the woman involved decides what the best thing to do might be - just as a woman in a monogamous relationship decides what to do with an unplanned pregnancy. She might choose to have a quick termination and keep it to herself; in a poly situation she might have a pretty good idea which of her partners contributed the relevant sperm or she might not.
No matter how sensible you are and how many agreements you set up, things can go wrong. Life has no guarantees. Being sensible and communicating well just mean you are better able to fix problems, not that you will never encounter them.

Hi, I'm jumping in briefly to say I haven't abandoned the discussion. I have to go away today and won't be back until tomorrow night.

I want to reply to some comments but I'm in too much of a rush to do so properly so it's better I leave it until tomorrow. There's lots of food for thought here and I've had some lovely, helpful PMs, thank you.

Dh and I discussed it some more this morning and a few things became evident. One being that we may actually be looking for more than a physical experience. For instance, as I mentioned in my first post, my being bisexual. I'd like to spend time with a woman doing everyday fun things. He'd like to go clubbing [I will but dislike it because I'm a non-drinker and I dance like a newborn foal] with someone he feels is more than a shag. Have fun but outside the bedroom. We have all our own fun things; camping, gigs, music etc but there are individual things that the other is not so keen to do. It's similar to our sex life. We have a great time, we're open-minded, try new things with and for eachother and we're quite uninhibited but there are things we both love but can't enjoy with eachother. The newness being one but there are other things.

I have a question I hope nobody minds me leaving here whilst I'm gone:

For those of you who have or are living this way, how was/is the reality compared to the expectation?

We're both as sure as we can be that we can handle any issues that arise but we're equally worried that we have a rose-tinted vision of the whole thing.

It would be interesting to see if there are statistics on open marriage.

LeaningTower you know, the one thing I wish I'd seen clearly set out before we opened our relationship a long time ago is this: however you solve problems now, you'll solve problems the same way in an open relationship. I remember reading all these terrible stories of how people had one threesome and things were never the same, or they or their partner used it as an excuse to lie and deceive, or whatever. But if you've got a few years under your belt together, you already know how you resolve conflicts (however imperfectly!) - you'll do the same with this. If you're able to face things down together, remembering you're on the same team, being both honest and kind to each other, not name-calling or manipulating, then that's what your relationship will continue to look like.

The one thing that changed for me is that I'd previously been confident that I thought polyamory (as opposed to a more casual open relationship) was a great idea but not something I was personally capable of; it seemed like a nice idea and something I'd like (and that was key; for us we didn't go into this prohibiting emotions) but I couldn't imagine myself ever falling in love with anyone other than DH. Then I met someone with whom I did fall utterly in love, and was amazed to discover the sheer capacity of my own heart, and the joy of being able to share that with my existing partner, too. That relationship ended a few years later, and that was terribly sad at the time, but he and I are still good friends who care a lot about each other. It's rare that I hit that depth of connection with anyone (the only comparable relationship, funnily enough, is my primary relationship), but I've had a few other reasonably significant relationships, mostly lasting a year or two; I'm happy to know that if an important connection with someone becomes evident, I can explore it as far as it leads.

I suffer with jealousy, so could not contemplate an open marriage in any way, shape or form. You would need to be very safe in your primary relationship, and very loving/caring/attentive/careful not to spread yourself too thinly...

the grass is always greener where it gets nurtured the most...

thank you for sharing your experience star, it really is incredibly interesting and you sound very happy which is fantastic.

Leaning tower I think you are very nieve to say an think you would like your dh to have a emotional relationship with her. Speaking from experience, that's just asking for heart ache. Dangerous game, I have played it an lost.

Viridius: If there are any, they would not be reliable. Because people don't have to declare how monogamous their relationships are to outsiders if they don't want to, and most surveys on sexual behaviour are unreliable because the respondents tell lies. Many people give answers that they think make them sound 'normal'; some think that their true attitudes or activities are freakish, immoral or even illegal and will therefore conceal them and some people (like me for instance) will give outrageous answers just to fuck up the survey.

star thank you for sharing your experiences its been really interesting id absolutely love to experience a new relationship again and i get sad to think that i wont. Ideally id like to relive it with my dp though as it doesnt seem poss to match that with anyone else.

pocket i wonder about your sisters set up what happens when they go out as a 4, who has sex with who? Does everyone automatically couple with their primary for the night? If your sis has a DH and a primary, does the primary feel like hes second best if theyve all gone out together?

I stlll think it would be beneficial to have a survey done about open marriage and marriage. The effectiveness of it would depend on what type of questions are asked. I guess there is no body that would have a motivation to carry this out, nor interest in spending time and money on it.
In my opinion, people are not primarily interested in expressing what is "normal", surely we are not a bunch of sheep?
I think people genuinely want to know why people choose the way they want to live, whatever form of marriage it is.

That doesn't make any sense, Hanna. Most monogamous people are serially monogamous ie they have multiple relationships over a lifetime. So with poly relationships it's just that those overlap rather than being one after the other.

Viridus I think that the idea that people are not interested in being "normal" is true for minor things but there is a set of behaviours, attitudes and preferences which are generally accepted and if your behaviour/attitude/preference falls outside of those, THEN the desire to hide it is much stronger. That's when the "normal" comes in. For example it is a lot more difficult for a man to admit that he likes cross dressing than it is for a woman to admit she sometimes buys clothes from men's stores. The former is "weird" and the latter is "quirky". Everyone likes to be a little bit different, but being too different is still undesirable for most people.

I find it difficult to see how if you want an emotional as well as physical connection, or if your partner does, you can be secure that your primary relationship can last. Because emotions are unpredictable. If you fall in love with someone there is no way you can predict where those emotions will end and whether or not you will find yourself wanting to be with the new partner over your existing one.

And what happens if you have children and are in more than one emotional relationship. How do you keep the kids out of all that or do people become monogamous once they have children?

I'd be interested to hear the views of a child who grew up in an open relationship and what their take was on their parents having multiple partners.