He doesn't want to marry me!

[ineedaholeinone]

DP has been married before and so have I. We've been together very happily for 9 years. Our previous marriages were unhappy and until quite recently I didn't even think about us marrying.
However, recently I've changed my mind. He's kind, caring, generous and supportive in every way. He's the one and I'd like to marry him.
One night, after a lovely night out and some drinks I told him I'd like to marry. Actually I asked him to marry me. He shocked me by saying no.........he said we would at some point though! That was certainly just to appease me.
Well, I was really hurt ....and surprised. He's always been so loving.
We have a great life, a home together. I now want commitment. I've brought it up since and it's still no.
I'm hurt and feel our relationship has changed.

How do I handle this? I can't help thinking it's because he doesn't love me enough. He seldom says he loves me but, i suppose actions speak louder than words and he is very caring.
I'm hurt, my pride is wounded and it's saddened me.

OP, my feeling is that now you have put your desire to marry your DP out in the open there will inevitably be a change (however subtle) in the dynamic of your relationship. It also occurs to me that asking your DP to try and understand both your views and motivations would go a long way towards addressing that imbalance between you, because it remains a fact that it's something you yourself want.

Not to address the subject, at least in discussion, would seem to be selfish. Don't ever be ashamed of airing your feelings to your DP over this issue, you have every right to express your wishes. IMO marriage is still part of the way we live and should not be demoted as irrelevant or out-of-date.

What are his reasons - will he not discuss them and is shutting down discussion.?

I agree it can be a shock. My friend has been with her partner for 30 years and recently suggested they get married quietly (no guests) in a registry office (their London house is now worth well outside the unmarried couple IHT threshold and she thought this would be easy way to protect both their rights to continue living there if the other died, they have 5 children) He said NO categorically and won't discuss it and has suggested taking out Life Insurance to cover the excess IHT instead.

My friend is really upset by it - she never really wanted to marry but it has caused a shift in her that has really surprised her and she no longer feels really cherished or loved the same. I think the lack of discussion about the issue and lack of reassurance about how much she is loved is at the root of it. It is a very emotive issue. I think your DP needs to discuss how he feels about marriage and about your relationship and you need to decide if you can concur with that.

I think the no marriage discussion probably has occurred awhile ago. His stance hasn't changed but hers did. He can listen to her changed views but he doesn't have to explain himself further if he's been firm on it before.

I'm back. I'll address the financial issue first. Neither of us has closer relatives than cousins and that's me so noone else figures in any way. Before we met we were both well off and owned properties. We sold both houses and bought together. The legalities are watertight. Indeed, if we were ever to split up, each of us could afford to buy the other out or buy another property. I realise what a fortunate position I'm in in that respect. Inheritance tax is an issue for me (we'd be liable for quite a lot) but doesn't seem to bother DP at all.
That is one reason.....though certainly not the main one.....for wanting to marry. I'm not sure why after 9 years it's now become so important to me. Certainly, the realisation that I love him very much and we're not getting any younger is a factor. Someone hit the nail on the head by saying his rejection of marriage has shifted the balance of power. I'm so aware of this. For all those years I've felt "the more loved partner"and rightly or wrongly I enjoyed that position. I don't feel that any more. People jokingly tell him he's punching above his weight (lookswise ) and how lucky he is to have me. He just laughs, of course.
Although I'm sad I don't feel inclined to give up this extremely pleasant and otherwise very happy relationship and life.
I'll pick my moment and have another heart to heart. He's not unwilling to discuss though he'd rather not. He just comes back to his unhappy marriage.

One other thing- we have full Power of Attorney for each other. I'm pretty certain we couldnt be more sorted legally other than the inheritance tax issue. That bothers me though I'm not remotely concerned about any widow's allowances.

"He's not unwilling to discuss though he'd rather not. He just comes back to his unhappy marriage".

He should not close you down like he has; you have a right also to have your views aired even if he does not like them. I would remind him that you are not his ex wife and this does need to be talked about. Just because its difficult does not mean that it should not be talked about and he gets a pass not to. It would just make your more resentful overall of him.

I would also sit him in front of a Solicitor to go through the financial implications of IHT as well. He may well think that he will die before you anyway. Its all very well him saying that he does not care; I think he is burying his head in the sand here and just wants it all to go away. Well it is not.

I think his reasons for not wanting to marry or now marry you are many and varied. I do not think it has anything to do with you as a person but currently at least you are not on the same page and there has been an underlying shift in the power/control balance.

"I'm pretty certain we couldnt be more sorted legally other than the inheritance tax issue. That bothers me though I'm not remotely concerned about any widow's allowances".

I would still seek up to date legal advice on such matters for your own self because if he did die suddenly it is not beyond the realms of possibility that financial problems could well arise. You and he currently in the eyes of the law are two individuals unrelated to each other and will be treated as such as well.

Power of Attorney as well ceases on death, at the very least I would ensure that both wills are up to date and correct.

Attila - I tend to agree with you but we don't know whether he has actually closed the OP down, or if she already has aired her views. There is a danger in repeatedly going over the same ground because it can then potentially become an issue, or he may feel badgered about it as much as she feels saddened by it. The OP said she asked initially, he said no and said they would at some point. The OP has taken this an appeasement and feels it won't ever happen which isn't necessarily the case. The OP says she has bought it up again and he still said no. We don't know that he prevented her from saying her piece/airing her views, so he may well not have closed her down. She herself has said that although he'd rather not discuss it, he is not unwilling.

He's coming across pretty fairly, I think. However, I think if there is another discussion and both air their views (possibly yet again), I think the OP will have to accept that after three discussions, the subject needs to be dropped - she has to accept the situation and learn not to let it affect their relationship. And you never know, he may surprise her when she least expects it.

TBH in this situation it's the OP who's being unfair. Not wanting to be married is a perfectly valid mindset: his feelings and opinions matter just as much as hers do. Plenty of people reject marriage as an outdated patriarchal institution or a waste of time, and many of them have a good point.

It could also be that he got married before because his then DP wanted it and he went along with the idea that if you're 'not bothered' and your partner is desperate for a wedding, you should give in: that might make him dig his heels in and (again) that's not unreasonable.

Given that you are financially sorted and I get the impression you don't want to have children with him, it's worth asking yourself why you are suddenly desperate for a wedding ring. And if it does boil down to the fact that you have always felt smugly sure that he's the one who loves you the most, and that you are the 'prize' in the couple, and you have had a rude awakening then TBH that won't do you any harm and the two of you might settle down into a better relationship once you've got over having your ego dented.

I agree with SGB. I am absolutely adamant I don't want to get married again. And I would be totally thrown off course if I had a relationship with someone who also didn't want to get married then changed their mind.

I can understand your romantic reasons that you give and they sound lovely - but marriage is so much more than romance, as you both know as you've done it before! You need to be justifying it to him - and it seems like his mind was made up, like it was before. He hasn't hidden anything, he's always felt this way so tbh, I'm surprised that you are hurt by it.

There was also something you said about power that made me think you feel like you've been knocked off your throne a bit by him saying no. In which case, you need to have a good thing about why it's made you feel that way.

think not thing!

I would agree with you, we do not know how such conversations came to be closed but I do not think he has the luxury not to discuss it further in future. Of course its a difficult subject; these two people are not now singing from the same hymn sheet.

Not discussing it may create resentment and bitterness which may go onto poison their whole relationship and have OP wondering what on earth she has been doing this past nine years. Is she going to start wondering what she really means to him; if he could marry his ex wife then why not her?. I think his decision not to marry has nothing to do with OP at all; these issues he has with marriage are very much his to deal with - and to take responsibility for. His overall reluctance to address current IHT concerns would also trouble me.

Attila - the OP has been having a very happy and fulfilling relationship for 9 years in which BOTH parties had stated neither wanted to marry again. It is not for him to deal with his "issues" with marriage. He's dealt with them by saying, right from the word go, he doesn't want to get married again. She has changed her goalposts, therefore it's for her to work through her new found "issues".

ineedaholeinone,
there is nothing wrong with wanting to be married and you shouldn't be made to feel needy, old-fashioned or un-progressive because that is what you want.
However, what you have done now is basically "move the goal posts". You've changed your view about the very fundamentals of the relationship. Again, this is not wrong, people have the right to change their minds at any time, but your DP may feel resentful because of this change in your mind-set..
Sadly, I cannot see a way out of this. There is no compromise in this matter as whatever you do, one person will be unhappy.
So you can stay and continue to try and sell him the idea of marriage, or you can leave and find someone who has the same goals as you do.
I'm sorry.

Such interesting, divergent and helpful views. Solid gold said.........

"And if it does boil down to the fact that you have always felt smugly sure that he's the one who loves you the most, and that you are the 'prize' in the couple, and you have had a rude awakening."

I'm afraid you've summed me up rather too well for my liking.

But it's a scary thought that maybe you're not as loved as you thought you were. I'm struggling.

Sorry, OP, but that in a nutshell is YOUR issue. You have, for some reason, out of the blue, after 9 years, decided that because he doesn't wish to marry again, he doesn't love you as much as you thought. Which is probably total nonsense. He probably loves you precisely as much today as two years ago.

"But it's a scary thought that maybe you're not as loved as you thought you were."

Or you could think of it that you are equals, Partners in love and life. What's wrong with that!

Marriage isn't important to me but it is to a lot of folk, like you.

I would feel like you tbh, if everything legal is set in place then what difference would being married make, I don't understand why he is so against it and I would think he's not as committed as I thought.

Not sure how you get round it though.

Maybe he married his first wife for all the right reasons. He wanted the romantic wedding thing as much as she did. So not wanting to marry the OP and turning her down is a big thing. It must have been nerve racking doing the proposing too and then to have your proposal rejected. Hard. Lots of men do prefer to do the proposing though but usually after a few years, not nine. Not sure if I have missed it somewhere but you must have talked about marriage years ago? What was his take on it then.

OP, I see you are coming back to financial issues. You talk about Inheritance Tax, but so what. You don't pay it. Your distant relatives will bear it but they will still be better off because they will inherit something they never have to work for (for each £100k you are worth they will inherit over £60k). Most people won't inherit in their lives and many people will both not inherit and have to support their parents out of their own savings. The money is a red herring. Why make that so much hard work of it all?

Oh and I noticed this also immediately his rejection of marriage has shifted the balance of power

You can neutralise it. Why is marriage so important to you? Perhaps work out why that symbolism is so important in your heart and mind. Why does being unmarried not work for you?

You asked three questions last night. The third was a distraction. The first two were important. They came from the same place within you. Some, but by no means many posters, answered those two questions. They gave you ideas to start the process about how to change the way you feel about something.

You have had 9 amazing years together. If you get married it will be because you both want it. In the meantime, marriage won't get you to a better place, will it? Not if you are already there?

Women are not cows. There's no "getting the milk for free" bullshit in an adult relationship. SATC was a delightful piece of tv entertainment, but that is all.

Thank you for your very interesting reply Dione. Please tell do inform me at which point I actually said that women were cows. I did not; I merely made an analogy. When people have what they want already, as the OP's OH does - he is happy with the status quo - they are not motivated to change.

The anecdote about Helen Gurly Brown does not relate to a Sex in the City episode but to her actual life. She wanted to be married, her OH did not, so she made a tough choice and in doing so got what she wanted.

Perhaps more women - and men - should be willing to cut their losses if they're not getting what they want and need, rather than wasting their one precious life with someone with whom they have a fundamental and unresolvable difference.

Not that I believe the OP's situation is necessarily unresolvable - it will just take some compromise and attitudinal adjustment on the part of one or both parties.

Has he clearly explained why he said no?

I've been married before and don't wish to marry again. Being married doesn't keep people together, nor does it guarantee commitment. After nine years and shared responsibilities, surely he is committed to you?

I thought my ex was the one, so strongly I'd have bet anything that we'd be together always. That changed entirely and we separated after nine years of being together. The divorce has been a complete hassle because for three years he said thst he saw no point in divorcing, and also lives abroad. And thus I am now aware that feelings change, people change and circumstances change. Something these changes drive us apart. And if that happens, divorce is not a pleasant thing to experience. I have explained this to my boyfriend, specifically asking him to not propose at any point (he's quite romantic and sit if thing he would do) and because he sees is not about him but about the nature of people and relationships and life generally he actually agrees with me now.

Just saying no, if that is what your partner did, is not enough. He needs to explain so that you don't feel hurt or take it personally.

Perhaps more women - and men - should be willing to cut their losses if they're not getting what they want and need, rather than wasting their one precious life with someone with whom they have a fundamental and unresolvable difference.

There is nothing to disagree with here, but this still doesn't explain the 'cow / free milk' analogy.

If your problem is that you're with a man who thinks so little of you that he's just happy he's getting sex on tap and he refuses to commit further purely on that basis, then you're with a troglodyte and have a different problem than the OP. And yes, you should absolutely cut your losses and move on.

There are 100s of 1000s of instances of couples moving in together and going on to marry in this day and age.

Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free is utter bullshit, and totally offensive to all decent, normal, loving men out there.
If you're interested in tethering yourself to a total misogynist, with no respect for women, then by all means live by that ^^ rule.

Otherwise, if you're with a regular, nice, kind man - then don't worry about moving in with him first, because the fact that he can .. 'get the milk for free' hmm will be neither here nor there.

I'm actually very surprised that someone would take this metaphorical figure of speech so literally.

In what way does not being motivated to change because you already have what you want relate to misogyny? I am not talking about misogynists, I am talking about motivation- for men and women alike.

If I were to live with a man I would not be motivated to get married either, although I respect the fact that others feel differently for various reasons.
If that man refused to live with me unless we were married, then I would have to reconsider my motivation and level of commitment in a way that I would not have been challenged to do so previously.

Going without what I want would either lead to a change of heart or it wouldn't. But I and the other person would have clarity and either way we would be able to move ahead with our lives, together or apart.

There is nothing to disagree with here, but this still doesn't explain the 'cow / free milk' analogy.

I believe I have just answered your question in my last post.

If your problem is that you're with a man who thinks so little of you that he's just happy he's getting sex on tap and he refuses to commit further purely on that basis, then you're with a troglodyte and have a different problem than the OP.

You could not be more wrong DowagerCuntess. I have recently left an unsatisfactory and problematic relationship. I was the one who ended it, by the way.

And yes, you should absolutely cut your losses and move on.

Please see above.

There are 100s of 1000s of instances of couples moving in together and going on to marry in this day and age.

I didn't say there weren't, I just put forward an alternative theory.
But incidentally, there are many more who aren't marrying; the marriage rate is falling.