My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry

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I posted on here a while back asking the question "Would you cut your mother out of your life" because of a really hurtful thing she did to me which she refuses to apologise for. I think my position has always been that it would be the last resort - I think my question should really have read "would you risk your mother cutting you out of HER life?". Well I risked it and she has...

Sorry to go over old ground but she told me over a year ago that my SIL found it hard to be around my son who has special needs. I didn't confront my brother and SIL until recently because they are really unapproachable and part of me felt that I had to just live with it. It came out a few months ago in a bit of heated discussion with my brother about something else. I immediately apologised to my mum for the way I had delivered it to my brother but said I felt it did need to be addressed (I have to protect my son, he will pick up on people's feelings about him). My mum denied having said anything of the sort and she, my SIL and brother all called me a liar (SIL said some really nasty things) and said I had invented the whole conversation, and my mum got the rest of the family to gang up on me.

My mum has said very little to my face but has badmouthed me and manipulated behind the scenes including trying to get the one (older)brother who has stood by me against me against me, accusing me of splitting up the family, etc.

Me and my older brother sent her an email telling her that we don't like the way the family operates, the scapegoating, backstabbing, and manipulating that goes on. We also told her that we wanted her to acknolwedge how bad our childhood was (my stepdad was physically and emotionally abusive to us both for several years, my mum left us home alone when we were really small, etc). We told my mum that this has really affected our lives (Neither me or b have much inner confidence and I still have nightmares about the past. I am having counselling now).

My mum said nothing to me and b but showed my younger brother and sister the letter (even though we asked her not to and to talk to us about it instead)and my sister had a go at me, said my mum was really upset and had told her what had "really happened" and that we had made it all up, it wasn't that bad. I sent an email asking to be treated with more respect or be left alone. I heard nothing from any of them till now.

My mum recently started texting and contacting my older b, we are both certain she was doing her usual "divide and rule" bit, trying to get him on side so I am the one left out. He emailed her back a few days ago and said she must apologise to me for calling me a liar and take on board our concerns if she wants a relationship with either of us. I have to say, I never wanted to issue ultimatums, but could not live with the alternatives which would be to just not be myself or true to myself.

My mum has emailed him back and said it is too late, we have both hurt her to much and it is beyond redemption and that we need to sort our own lives out and leave her to get on with hers. She called me false because I had a close relationship with her and never said anything like this before. I accept that I did used to just say "the past is the past" and because I have always been too petrified of losing her to ever cross her, so have accepted blame, guilt, comments behind my back about me and DH, and have carried on being loving and compliant towards her till now. We did have a "close" relationship but on the basis that I agreed with everything she said.

I feel okay, actually. I suppose I have been slowly accepting this may be the outcome for months. But I can't quite believe that rather than discuss things, debate things, get things out into the open and (what is hardest for her - apologise)so we can move on to a new and better level in our dealings with her she is willing instead to lose two of her children. Just feel sad about that really...

Sandcastles - I don't think I would have any guilt if I was you either. I really don't think your mum has been any kind of a mum to you at all. It doesn't sound like you, mummymonster and harrisey have had no kind of a mother at all.

Snowleopard, thanks and good point about the being false thing. I think my mum expects perfection from me where I have got anything but from her...that is exactly why I have hated family gatherings for years and I didn't even understand why. Clearly I had all these feelings but because they had never been acceptable to my mum or siblings I was trying to keep a lid on them. It makes a lot of sense.

PS Sorry for poor grammar - shouldn't try and do mumsnet and roast dinners at the same time!

Am feeling so much happier - thanks for all of your kind words.

Pages, how are things today?

Pages - hadn't seen this before, but we had "talked" on previous occasions.

I don't have a toxic relationship with my own mother, but I have seen first and the damage that toxic relationships can have - and how, despite the best of intentions, it can impact acorss the generations.

I'm glad to hear that yuo are still being strong and are getting counselling. That will really help ensure that it doesn't tansfer across the generations, even inadvertantly (eg an over exaggerated concern about not interfering leading to a barrier to getting grandparents involved)

One wee thought occurred to me: you say your mum is complaining that you'd said "the past is the past". Well, the present is rooted in the past - as I am sure that you are finding out in your counselling sessions.

But you are doing the rightt hing in not getting back to her. She would just see that as validating her onw "justification" of waht happened. I foyu think of it, her "complaint" only validated your brother and your letter. The past is the past, so she is implicitly acknowledging it, so why not just be honest about what happened. Do you see what I mean (not sure I'm being very articulate).

But as someone esle said, if any of your other relatives do "take sides" without having heard both sides, then are they worth it? The truth will out - even if it is only in your, your brother's and yur dh's heads. The people who care about you.

You're sounding stronger all the time. It must feel like a weight is lifting off your shoulders. Your friends will see the difference in you - the new, more self assured you - if they haven't already seen it!

Hi there, thanks I am okay Sandcastles, and Prettybird I do remember you from the previous thread - I think your mum had a bad time as a child and you have a history of bad mother daughter relationships going back some generations so that your mum is a bit underinvolved or afraid to get involved with your life? I think I get what you are saying - but can you explain a bit more about the past being rooted in the present?

It feels like there is a weird kind of parallel going on at the moment in my world - I am aware that I am moving forward with my life and subtle changes are happening and the liberation I feel from my family is amazing, yet there is the old family script still going on at the same time. While I am busy the family guilt doesn't touch me (and it certainly isn't keeping me awake at night!). But whenever I am on my own and every time I start to feel joyful, really in touch with my feelings and happy to be alive (sounds daft I know!) the guilt kicks in like Greensleeves describes. It is almost as if there is a voice saying "It's all very well you feeling happy but it is at your mother's expense. She is miserable because of you" and I can feel the blame and scorn of my mother and brother in particular (the one whose wife started all this) and "hear" them talking about me.

Sometimes it just feels a bit surreal - the fact that I have believed a certain way and "played the game" for all these years and suddenly woken up to the truth about my family. They are still playing "aren't we a happy family, or we would be if it weren't for Pages" and I am looking at old photos and diaries and thinking that it was all a lie. But it's almost as if I am now having to rewrite every event, every gathering, all the conversations (even the nice ones with my mum) in the light of what I now know.

I guess as Sakura says it will continue to be difficult for a while yet but when I think back to how it was in the summer and it all first kicked off and I could barely function - it consumed every part of my day (and some nights) for several weeks - I realise how much things have moved on and how much the general feeling of freedom is worth the guilt pangs. I also have to remind myself of how devastated I was at being called a liar and blamed for something my mum and SIL had said about my child - and that the letter to my my mum came later, after weeks of her manipulating the others and still blaming me for splitting the family up, etc. She could have apologised at any time in those intervening weeks but chose instead to continue to blame me. So we wrote her a letter and tell her a few home truths and now, suddenly, it has become all about that letter. (My sister said the rest of them wanted to make it up with me and b until that point). Funny how the rest of the family could get past any ill treatment of me with no trouble but will not hear a bad word against my mum... even my SIL was defended to the hilt by everyone. It just show how low I rank in the pecking order.

Never mind, in my own little family I am way up at the top - equally with my 3 boys of course!!!! Funny, I don't feel the need to be top dog like my mum did. I wonder why our mothers had such a need to control everyone and be so ultra-important?

Pages - you've remembered right. Becasue of waht my mother's parents were like, and the things they did to try to manipulate them, my parents are terrified of "interfering": to the extent that we have to positively seek them out for help with ds and we (ie dh and me) think that as a result they are missing out a bit on ds growing up.

We do seem them regularly (once we week), but for evening supper on a school night, so they don't really get a chance to play with ds. if we ever ask, they are happy to look after him - but they never offer. And given my own upbringing, I find it extremely difficult (almost imposible) to ask for help (which I have told them, once I owrked it as a result of some counselling), so we never do ask - and they never offer.

What Imeant about the present being rooted in the past is that the way you react to things is a result of the different influences in your earlier life - and especially your childhood. SO for example, the fact that you are still feeling guilt and torn - even though you know that you've done the right thing, is becasue you were "trained" by your mum to put her needs first.

I'm not saying my mum did that - I am still close to her and she and dad have done the best that they can - but for example in my case, my inability to ask for help has its roots in my early childhood when apparrntly my brother (18 months younger) was a very demaninf baby/toddler, so I learnt to be the "good" older sister, not too much trouble to my mum and to be a "coper" (even when I'm not necessarily coping). It was actually in talking about my teens that I worked this out with my counsellor - and I only realised it went back as far as my early childhood when I talked to my mum and she said that my brother had demanded most of her attention, and because I was "good", she was able to give it to him.

It is possibe to overcome this early conditioning - but very difficult. In my case, it's just a case of recognising it and learning to ask for help - but also telling thoe close to me that I do find it very difficult to ask for help, so that they should not be shy of offering it. So it's a different type of coping mechanism. Althoug in my parents' case, they've been told and they still don't spontaneoulsy offer help or support - but there again, they've been conditioned too!

Hope that clarifies it a bit for you.

Your counselling should really help.

Have you decided what you are doing about contact between grqandchildren/grandparents. If I recall correctly, that was one of the things you were worried about if you cut off contact - the impact on your kids. Have they noticed anything?

Hi Pages, glad you are ok.

I just need to reassure you, although you are still haunted by certain things, these feelings WILL pass. One day you will think ?wow, I haven?t thought about so & so for a while? so don?t worry about how you are feeling, go with it & it will eventually leave you.

Just to point out a few things?

?It's all very well you feeling happy but it is at your mother's expense. She is miserable because of you and I can feel the blame and scorn of my mother and brother in particular (the one whose wife started all this) and "hear" them talking about me?

You know that?s not true, right? She is ?miserable? because what she did/didn?t do is now haunting her in the shape of a lost daughter. You & your letter just brought it out in the open. You didn?t cause her to be the way she was, you caused her to look at it. She didn?t like what she saw, therefore she is miserable.

I wrote ?miserable? as I really don?t think that she IS miserable. She doesn?t sound capable of this feeling. Don?t let her supposed misery taint what is now a wonderful time for you. That is what she will want, then she has won & I know you don?t want THAT!

People only blame others when they really can?t take responsibility for their actions. It is easier for your family to blame you, bacause to be able to deal with it being their problem; they need to acknowledge that there was a problem. I don't really think they can do this. But this just makes you stronger; you acknowledged there was a problem, dealt with your part in it (the covering up, not mentioning it, pretending all was well ?playing the game?) you can move on, which is why YOU are not miserable (well, not as much anyway)

Let them scorn!! You, your dh & db KNOW the truth & nothing is stronger than that!

My dad used to tell me that if people were talking about you, it is because you were worth talking about & must be interesting & their lives were dull (nothing better to do type thing). He told me never to worry about it. Only worry when they stop talking about you.

Of course it became all about THAT letter! Because it was easier for her to believe that letter was the cause of all the bad feeling, rather than her actions, iyswim.

People also feel they have to tell their side to as many people as they can, as they are over analysing & trying to ?prove? they were right all along! When in fact they weren?t. They want people to say how bad YOU are, because it justifies their behaviour. My mother was the same. Of course she left out the fact that she did all those things, never told her family she stole from her daughter, because if she had?it would have been a very different story. She tried telling dh?s aunt some stuff about me & she just said ?sandcastles & I have a great relationship, there is nothing you can tell me that I don?t already know? (she was right) She hated it?one less person on her side!

You are doing so well. I wish I had MN when I was going thru it all, way back then. But I ma glad to be able to share it, if it means others can feel better about their situation.

Thanks, I am not miserable at all - far from it. I know the guilt feelings are conditioning from the past and will pass in time and no, I don't believe that I am responsible for my mum's unhappiness. She has driven away anyone in her life who has ever got close enough to her to hold a mirror up to her and the way she is with people and she is still convinced it is them and not her.

I started reading "Toxic Parents" again last night and found myself feeling furious again that she let me go through what I went through as a child AND made me feel as if it was my fault, and she hasnt even got the decency to say she is sorry. I am actually starting to pity my siblings that they are still caught up in her trap.

Last night I told DH the true extent of what my stepdad put me through, the ritual daily humiliation, verbal and physical abuse (and sexual harrassment though not actual abuse)and DH kept saying "you've got to tell your brothers and sisters - you've got to tell them what it was really like" but what is the point? As I pointed out to him, if they didn't even want to hear the 5 or 6 lines we wrote to my mum about the past they don't want to hear it full stop. I know what happened and so does my brother and so does my mum, even though she won't admit it to herself.

As for all the manipulation and stuff that she is doing in the present day I realise that it is too late in the day for her to change. If she hasn't by now, she is not likely to and it is therefore probably right that it is beyond redemption. I think she is too self-righteous (fragile ego) to ever admit that she has been wrong - she would rather lose two of her children - and yes, her grandchildren it seems. My brother said we would never stop her seeing them and she responded by telling us to leave her to get on with her life, so I assume she means she doesn't want contact with them either.

My kids don't even know who she is so it will be no loss to them in the short term. I don't know how much it will matter to them as they get older but as I said once before neither me or DH knew our gps and it didn't matter to us. I didn't initially like the idea of them not having her in their life but it is her decision.

Thanks for the support. You are right when you say whatever I have said to her in the letter it is nothing to what she has done to me (and is no more than she deserves to read after what she has done) - and I could have forgiven all of it if she would just say she is sorry and that she made a mistake. What kind of a mother would rather lose two children and four grandchildren?

PS I realise of course that it is all part of her toxicity that she won't hear it, apologise or empathise - so I am not waiting for that apology, I know it isn't ever going to come, and I am reaping the benefits of not having just patched this up and glossed it over (as I have done in the past) in so many other ways.

I was just making the point that I could and still would forgive her if she apologised and I felt that she was open to change. It would take a lot of working through but I would be up for it if a better and deeper relationship were a possibility at the end. But she is the one who is categorically saying that it is beyond redemption.

That sounds like a good healthy attitidue Pages. You really are moving forward.

You seem to have grapsed that you can't make your mum change - she has to want to herself - and by all accounts, that is not something she is prepared or ready to do - and is unlikely ever to do so.

You gave her the cance to think , reflect and understadn the consequences when you and yuor dd gave her that letter. She has chosen not to - so you have done what you can.

Your children will unsderstand - and much better that yuo don't expose them to the possible (probable) toxic relationship. ANd espciecially much beter that they have a hapy, confident mum who isn't being undermined by that toxic relationship, Hopefully, they will remember the lving relationship offered by your MIL.

Look forward to Christmas. Ths time it is amongst people who love you for who you are.

Not much time, baby wanting my attention! All you guys are helping me so much, relating to it all. I have been reading it over the past few days and not had time to reply but I feel so much less guilty all of a sudden in fact no guilt at times! Good to hear that you can stop thinking about the past eventually...I look forward to it!

Hugs to you all

xxxxx

So glad this thread is helping you Ally - it is really helping me. I woke up today feeling fantastic and - no guilt! Read something last night in "Toxic Parents" that really helped.

Also the points you made helped Prettybird - conclusions that I had come to before and needed to remind myself about, including me teaching my children self respect by refusing to allow myself to be undermined by my family.

Also what you said about the letter me and my brother wrote to my mum helped - it is true that it was not written to her from a place of malice - the intention was to show her how her behaviour is affecting the whole family and to try and improve things for us all including her. There were parts that were harsh, and some bits did come from a place of anger, but the intention overrall was not simply to hurt - but to heal us all. Of course it was going to hurt her but that doesn't mean it was cruel.

Two things really struck me last night from reading "that book" - one is where it said about your parents denial system having an effect on your self-esteem - by their insistence that it "wasn't that bad" or "didn't happen" (which my mum did and is still doing) they undercut your ability to perceive reality, and that is definitely something that has happened to me and the reason why I have always needed so much reassurance from others about whether what I think is "normal" or correct. I have been told in the past that I need to trust and know my own truths but it has always been really difficult for me not to ask 10 people after I have been upset by someone if it is ok for me to feel that way. Now I realise why - it is because my mum has always told me what I am allowed to think and feel and denied anything she doesn't want to believe herself. Now I realise where it has come from it is something I really believe I can change and I feel so excited about it!

The other thing I realised is how codependent my relationship with my mum was and how I put her needs above mine, how to feel good I depended on approval from her, how I would do anything to avoid getting rejected by her. The book describes how in order for children to develop a sense of their own self-worth they need their parents to validate their needs and feelings. If the parents put their own needs first and ignore their children's the child learns to define themselves in terms of their parents feelings instead of their own. I realise that is exactly what I have been doing all my life - if I made my mum feel good, I was good. If I made her feel bad, I was bad. Which completely explains my willingness to tell her she was a good mother and that the past didn't affect me anymore. I don't know whether I really deep down believed that at the time - I think I really thought I was over it all - but I was definitely trying to make her feel better and ignore any feelings I may have had about the past.

But now I understand that, it almost goes without saying that if my mum feels bad I will start to feel bad - but I am now going to just let her feel bad. In a way, if her feeling good is contingent on me feeling good and I don't feel good about what has happened then it comes down to a choice of her or me, and I choose me!!! So instead of feeling guilty now I should be proud of myself for putting myself (and thereby my dc) first and risking that(inevitable)rejection!

I felt the need to write this all down in the hope that it helps some of you too.

(Oh, by the way, my mum dismissed the book as pop psychology written to cash in on the blame culture... I must let the author know so she can add that to the list of typical toxic parent reactions to confrontation!!!!!

PS my mum reads pop psychology - she introduced me to "Women who Love too much", and I am sure the author did financially very well out of that but of course there was nothing in that book that reflected badly on her...)

Sorry should have said "contingent on me making her feel good" in 4th para from the bottom.

pages, your mother has a fantastic ability to pick out the bits of psychology that suit her the best doesn't she!!

sounds like you are doing fab xx

I know! (Said in a Monica-from-Friends voice)

which book did u read? sounds good. i had same rela with my mum re feelings!

It's called "Toxic Parents" by Dr Susan Forward. All major bookshops should stock it. I am reading it for the second time and it is hugely relevant to my situation - I also like the fact that (apart from seeing my upbringing on every other page and at last being able to see my own reality in black and white) she is original and goes against the grain in recommending that you confront your parents - I wasn't initially sure about this but am now at a loss to see how one member of a family can change the family dynamic and interdependant relationships unless everyone confronts it. It also feels more authentic than going to counselling and crying your eyes out because you were treated like crap as a child and then smiling and saying "lovely to see you" next time you see them all. I for one have realised that having confronted my mum (despite the pain of letting her go) has freed me up beyond belief to take care of myself properly, probably for the first time in my life. Hope you too find it helpful too, Ally.

PS Funny, it never struck me till today that while my mum got into co-dependant and on occasion abusive relationships with men, I never did. I have always been strong in my relationships with men. But I didn't realise until today that I was in a co-dependant abusive relationship with my mum...

Pages, sounds like you are doing very well.

I wish I had heard of that book when I was going through it all! It could have helped. I might still get it, if not just to see what you mean.

I'm glad that you told your dh, it really does help to air these things.

I was wondering the other day, why is it that so many of us have 'toxic' parents? What was it that the generation before ours felt that to bury abuse, emotional or physical was OK? That they thought they had a 'right' to a happy & peaceful life, but we didn't? Why didn't our feelings matter, unless they were being used to validate theirs? Why did we suffer (and contune to) because they are too selfish to put us above them? I remember wanting someting from my mum, but she was busy..we ended up argueing. I yelled that 'I didn't ask to be born, you know' & she replied 'no, but I didn't ask for you to born either'

I think it is something I will understand!

Sandcastles- your post on wednesday was brilliant. I took a lot of advice from that, so even though I am further down the road than Pages, I still have a lot to learn about this process and keep having to be strong, because it seems to never just go away- it just gets easier to get used to. 5 steps forward, 4 steps back. But then again, my realization only came about a year ago when I was getting married, so its still very fresh for me too.

FOx, its interesting that you live on a different continent to your family. I do too- perhaps not a coincidence? In some ways the distance helps me to get on with my life, but in other ways, I`ve learned that your problems follow you wherever you go. In my case, I have to be very conscious to not take out my hurt on my family ( and now my 9 week old DD )

Also, sorry to rant on your thread, PAges, but I have to mention something that happened this week that really upset me. Me, DH and DD are going back home for Christmas, so I sent my mum a letter, offering her a chance to meet my dd in a public place, (because its neutral and so she cant kick off). She phoned my DH on his mobile at work (got the number from my toxic dad but thats another story), ranting about how she was threatened by me in the letter, and going on about grandparents rights and how shell get to see her grandchild on her terms at any cost, even if it means coming to my country. At first, I felt like the scared little girl again, desparate to appease her and calm her down because I didnt want her to spoil the happiness Ive created for myself here. But then I started thinking about how she really doesnt give a damn about my DD, and just wants to make sure she can keep making me miserable, and being the bully. AGain I had to remind myself, that I was not doing anything wrong. at first for half a second I thought about giving in and going to her house to play happy families, but now I realise she should be treated like a child because thats how shes acting. I cant let her believe that a temper tantrum gets her what she wants, in fact it will get her the opposite. so Im not meeting her to show her the baby when we go back, and I feel very relieved about that (so does my dh). I feel very strongly that Im protecting my family by not letting her influence pervade my life.
sorry- thanks for letting me get that off ny chest...

Sakura, congrats on your new DD and at your mum. Don't apologise for sharing this - it is so helpful to see that even further down the line you need to be prepared for these sort of outbursts. I can't believe that your mum would after all this time risk losing a golden opportunity to see her grandchild rather than relinquish the freakish control she has to have over you (everyone?) - her behaviour is not just unmaternal, it is bordering on psychotic imo. I would not wish my dc to be exposed to anything like this.

I fully expect and anticipate my mum to "up the ante" in respect of my situation but I am working now on the restoring of the balance of power in our relationship so I don't revert to the scared little girl you describe anymore and hope not to when the time comes. But I can see with your mum you have to be really strong not to. I think seeing your mum as a child is a good thing, she is not in a position anymore where she is bigger than you and you need her in order to survive so now you can see that being frightened of her is tantamount to being frightened of a 6 year old. You have made the right decision Sakura not to meet her. If she can react like that over a letter making what was actually a generous overture to her then what might she do in person? And even if you are able to see her for what she is and not be frightened of her your dc may well be. Well done for standing up to her.

PS Sandcastles your advice on Wednesday was indeed really good and very helpful. And Fox, your story is a very sad one, really feel for you.

Sakura, Glad you found some use in my post. It helps to share for me too, as ht elast encounter I had with my mother was in a post office 2 days before we emigrated to Oz, where she totally blanked me. So, it's a bit fresh & sore at the mo, but easy for me to 'put it away' as it's hwta I have lived with. I aslo think my family get a bit 'bored' of hearing it.

Please DO NOT go knocking on your mum's door, you will be right where she wants you 'sakura came running back' etc. Well done for being the better person, by sending that letter. As I had said, I did that too, but all I got was (via my sister) 'she knows where I am'.

You know, as hard as it is to hear & I am sorry if you find this upsetting. She really doesn't seem to care about her grandchild. She reacted very badly to that letter, it was all about HER. I think had she cared, she would have taken the oppertunity & meet her GC. Instead she decided to attck YOU for offering to build bridges. Very sad.

"At first, I felt like the scared little girl again, desparate to appease her and calm her down because I didnt want her to spoil the happiness Ive created for myself here" That is exactly what she wants, she can't stand that you can live your life & be happy without her!

Good Luck & I'm sure Pages won't mind you ranting here. It's like our own little therapy corner. We just need to think of a name!

PS A week after telling us to leave her alone and let her get on with her life my mother has sent Xmas cards and presents to my older brother (nothing to me). He has told me he will not respond. I know that she is taking this out on me and trying to get him back because she blames me for all this (even though the letter was from us both). Her actions are so transparent, it's pathetic. Fortunately my older b has put up with this treatment from her for the last 20 years so knows her game.

I am feeling so fab today, I can't tell you. I am feeling so free of it all, it is almost like looking in on another family and laughing at it. So excited about Xmas and so "loved up" with my darling DS's and lovely DH.

Hope you are feeling ok Sakura.

Thanks so much for the support. I'm so glad this thread is helping others and not just me.