My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry

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I posted on here a while back asking the question "Would you cut your mother out of your life" because of a really hurtful thing she did to me which she refuses to apologise for. I think my position has always been that it would be the last resort - I think my question should really have read "would you risk your mother cutting you out of HER life?". Well I risked it and she has...

Sorry to go over old ground but she told me over a year ago that my SIL found it hard to be around my son who has special needs. I didn't confront my brother and SIL until recently because they are really unapproachable and part of me felt that I had to just live with it. It came out a few months ago in a bit of heated discussion with my brother about something else. I immediately apologised to my mum for the way I had delivered it to my brother but said I felt it did need to be addressed (I have to protect my son, he will pick up on people's feelings about him). My mum denied having said anything of the sort and she, my SIL and brother all called me a liar (SIL said some really nasty things) and said I had invented the whole conversation, and my mum got the rest of the family to gang up on me.

My mum has said very little to my face but has badmouthed me and manipulated behind the scenes including trying to get the one (older)brother who has stood by me against me against me, accusing me of splitting up the family, etc.

Me and my older brother sent her an email telling her that we don't like the way the family operates, the scapegoating, backstabbing, and manipulating that goes on. We also told her that we wanted her to acknolwedge how bad our childhood was (my stepdad was physically and emotionally abusive to us both for several years, my mum left us home alone when we were really small, etc). We told my mum that this has really affected our lives (Neither me or b have much inner confidence and I still have nightmares about the past. I am having counselling now).

My mum said nothing to me and b but showed my younger brother and sister the letter (even though we asked her not to and to talk to us about it instead)and my sister had a go at me, said my mum was really upset and had told her what had "really happened" and that we had made it all up, it wasn't that bad. I sent an email asking to be treated with more respect or be left alone. I heard nothing from any of them till now.

My mum recently started texting and contacting my older b, we are both certain she was doing her usual "divide and rule" bit, trying to get him on side so I am the one left out. He emailed her back a few days ago and said she must apologise to me for calling me a liar and take on board our concerns if she wants a relationship with either of us. I have to say, I never wanted to issue ultimatums, but could not live with the alternatives which would be to just not be myself or true to myself.

My mum has emailed him back and said it is too late, we have both hurt her to much and it is beyond redemption and that we need to sort our own lives out and leave her to get on with hers. She called me false because I had a close relationship with her and never said anything like this before. I accept that I did used to just say "the past is the past" and because I have always been too petrified of losing her to ever cross her, so have accepted blame, guilt, comments behind my back about me and DH, and have carried on being loving and compliant towards her till now. We did have a "close" relationship but on the basis that I agreed with everything she said.

I feel okay, actually. I suppose I have been slowly accepting this may be the outcome for months. But I can't quite believe that rather than discuss things, debate things, get things out into the open and (what is hardest for her - apologise)so we can move on to a new and better level in our dealings with her she is willing instead to lose two of her children. Just feel sad about that really...

Sakura, wise words in your post yesterday, thank you. You're right, she probably knew. One useful thing the therapist I saw briefly did say to me was that for my mother to admit to even one tiny thing that she had done wrong as a mother would mean blowing open the facade she's built of our "perfect" family and her "wonderful" marriage and of course she'll never do that. It would destroy her life and I have no interest in doing that, I just want her not to be in mine.

Toomany - thanks for the hugs . "Your foundation is changing" SO true! It's an ongoing and very strange (but good) feeling trying to work out who I am, what I believe and how I want to live, and just living my life for myself, dh and ds, rather than mentally beating myself up all the time about how I don't come up to scratch in my mother's eyes and wondering what it would take to get her love and approval. It's liberating to have moved away from that.

Danae, good to have you back and I hope you are doing okay today. Have you read any books recommended on the thread, especially Toxic Parents? It might really help. I hope the LLL have managed to recommend another toddler group for you to go to. I'm v. that you were asked to leave, bf is so natural. We went to a toddler group for a while where one of the women was still bf her 3yr-old daughter and it wasn't a problem. In fact I'd say it was sensible for young children to understand this is completely natural. But that's a whole other thread. I too felt very isolated in ds's first few years and it's taken me a long time to make friends with other mothers (we moved when he was 2.5). There are lots of virtual hugs and support to be had here so please keep posting if it helps. Others have said this but it bears repeating - you are not your mother. Try to ignore your mother's comment, you are already a far better mother than she ever was. Our mothers do not know what they're talking about. After the miscarriage I had last year, when I was still in touch with my mother, she told me I had a "faulty" body and that was why I'd miscarried. She's also told me at various times since ds was born that I was useless at breastfeeding and should give up, and that I wasn't coping with ds and would never manage to cope with another child. That final comment haunts me as so far I haven't been able to have another and my time is running out really, but I keep reminding myself that I wouldn't put up with such cruel comments from anyone else, so I don't need to from her, and I shouldn't give them any credance.

Danae, do you get any chance to have time away from dd? I'm just wondering if there are any facilities around you with a creche you could take advantage of. Where I live there's a lovely small council-run leisure centre with a creche, and lots of the mums with babies book them into the creche for an hour or so and go to the gym or swim or do an exercise class just to have time for themselves. Or is there anything like tumble tots or a baby music class in your area? I guess Homestart might know. I hope they can help.

You will be able to cut out the "mother in your head" but my experience it is a lot easier once you have cut her out of your life, be it temporarily or permanently. That distance from them is incredibly important. Just knowing that you have taken that step, and started creating boundaries between you and her will make you feel stronger, though I think we all falter at times. Since cutting my mother out (she is in a "holding pattern" at the moment, but I know in the new year I need to address things with her) I have at times felt desperately depressed, but more often I've felt happier than I have done in years, I like myself so much more, I laugh more, and now that I'm really starting to resolve my feelings and trust myself I'm noticing that my relationship with dh keeps getting better and ds is far happier, so we all win. It might seem like you're at the bottom of a large mountain with a daunting climb ahead of you but you really can do it, for yourself, your dh and dd.

Hi just wanted to re-affirm what bearsmom just said about cutting them out. Im only at the beginning of this process, and Im thinking the same way...of placing them in a holding pattern for now.

For the last 7 months I seemed to have plunged back into depression, and thought...well ok Im not on the AD's so here we go again.

And yet, Since finding this thread,re-connecting with, or maybe even realising for the first time that maybe the way I feel is because of my mother. It is the first time I had thought of cutting her out of my life. Since that decision was made.....I am astonished how the depression has lifted. I have suffered with this for years and my depression has never 'just' melted away like this.

The reason 'has' to be that I have decided to have no contact, surely.

Ps Bearsmom-you sound a lot better today?

Message withdrawn

Thanks Smithfield, I'm feeling a lot better today. I went out for a meal last night with lots of mums from ds's school and it was a great way to take my mind off everything and remind me what a lovely life we're managing to build here (and it's totally separate from my mother who knows hardly anything about it and has never been -and will never come - to our house). We moved out of the city 2.5 years ago and have been here a year and it's taken some time to start to feel part of the place, but now I do and it feels good.

Hi Danae, it's so good to hear you sounding so much better today.

"It's like my ovaries listen to her at a cellular level even when my mind is filtering her nastiness out. (Does that sound bonkers?)" That's exactly how I feel, so to me it doesn't sound bonkers at all . The things they say to us strike us very deeply. And if it helps at all, I was 38 when I had ds, so eggs keep going long after 34!

I guess what I meant by "holding pattern" was that my mother is, to all intents and purposes, out of my life in that I don't contact her and if forced to respond to contact from her (which in the last year has only been by email or gifts for ds), I don't give her any information at all about our lives, what we're up to, how we are etc. She emailed me about a month ago asking to meet up and I emailed back a short response saying I would meet at her some point but was too busy at the moment. I know that anything I tell my sister or brother or sil goes straight back to my mother, but at least she's having to get information about us (which she feeds on) in a roundabout way, rather than having the satisfaction of getting it from me. And I want to stay in touch with my brother and sister so it's a price I have to pay.

I know that next year I'm going to have to face up to things and explain to her that I want things to continue as they are because I just don't want to be involved with her and my father and I definitely don't want ds anywhere near their poison. I guess I'll see them at the occasional family wedding or funeral, and I do wonder how I'd feel if my mother became seriously ill because there's a part of me that still feels compassion for her and wouldn't want her to suffer but I'll deal with that when it happens. I know just what you mean about holding off for fear of "damaging" your mother and I think I would have found it hard to break from her had it not been for my mc last year and her behaviour towards me before and after it. But my anger was so great that I just did what instinctively felt right and I'm so glad I did. We can't feel responsible for our mothers, our priority has to be our own, our children's and our partners' well-being first and foremost. One ironic thing about my mother is that in my twenties, when I showed no signs of wanting to settle down or have a family she told me that when a woman marries, her husband becomes her first priority and her parents and siblings must take a back seat, and yet when I met dh my mother desperately resisted him "taking me away from my (birth) family".

Do you think you can "blinker" yourself to your mother's feelings, and focus solely on what is best for you and dd and dh? I'm sure you'll feel the calm that has been described here descend on you if you're able to take the control away from her and distance her from your everyday life for a while (and how long that is is totally up to you, not her). Lots of very good stuff has been said during the thread about leaving our mothers to take responsibility for their own feelings and not allowing them to project things onto us, but it's such a huge thread now I can't point you to exactly where they are.

Hope the day continues well.

Hi everyone, I have finally found a spare two hours () to catch up with the last few pages properly.

Just wanted to say Bearsmom that I am so sorry for the abuse you suffered as a child and your mother's failure to protect you. I could relate to so much of what you said - although my stepfather never physically abused me, I still don't believe it was for want of trying (he dressed up his "leering" and trying to get into my bedroom, calling me "Lolita" etc, as a joke but it was no joke to me). Your father is lucky that as an adult you tolerated him as long as you did - I certainly wouldn't want to even be in the same town let alone the same room as him now if I were you, let alone let him near my DC (whatever sex they were).

As for your mother, like you I in the past made excuses for her failure to protect me, and I think the "closeness" between me and her, her trying to be my best friend, etc was in part something she manufactured to keep me singing from the family songsheet and to stop me blowing the whole thing open and discovering for myself the truth about how bad it all really was. I know she feels I have "betrayed" her. She actually said that. She has always relied on my loyalty. Like you, I have realised that being loyal to her is incompatible with being loyal to myself.

As for the anger (I think it was you who asked did this come first?) yes, anger was the overriding emotion I experienced when the storm first broke for me and it went on for a long time (months and months). Funny thing is, though, I learned to enjoy it and feel its power. I had always believed anger to be an unpleasant emotion (because it just always bubbled inside you and couldn't get directed anywhere) so I avoided it, but I have learned to enjoy it now.

I do on the whole mostly feel pretty impassive these days where my mother's concenrned (I had even wondered whether I was in denial or something because I just don't seem to feel anything for her - at all!) but I still feel angry occasionally and use the energy by going for a good walk or doing some excercise or, like you, writing it down in a journal or just allowing myself to feel it.

I think the main thing to remember is that allowing yourself to feel all these emotions, including all the dreadful pain, is what helps them pass and although it feels like you will be crying forever right now, you won't. This will pass, after time, and especially if you can express it through counselling or on here. I was so pleased to hear some of you say that your depression has "melted away" - that is so fantastic. (And logical, really, as depression is I believe thought to be a mask for real feelings).

I have always been a bit of a "Polyanna" and have never really suffered from depression but I am experiencing a real freedom and excitement about the future that I didn't really fully experience until I cut my mother out of my life. My relationship with DH has changed beyond all measure, as I no longer react and "seek" problems that aren't there (the old drama), I can accept criticism or can be snapped at by DH without dissolving in tears.

It is a process though and even though you may not realise it subtle shifts are afoot even now. This time last year I was experiencing panic symptoms that some of you describe, fluttering heart, etc and it occupied my every thought. Watching my mother's behaviour at our last meeting really opened my eyes to how toxic she is, and far removed from her I am now mentally. It was like watching the wicked witch of the west melting. I now think she is a sad, lonely and - yes - even pitiable old woman. (I will leave someone else to pity her in person though!)

Danae, you clearly need more time to yourself and/or time in the company of adults. I think those of you who are SAHM's are admirable and I know I couldn't do it. I urge you to consider part time child care for your LO, even if a couple of mornings a week. You may well get financial help - not sure if you are in the UK - but worth it anyway surely, against the cost to your sanity. I don't think this is so much to do with you being like your mother as you just needing a bit of "you" time.

Sakura, re the lessons with the Japanese children - I can so relate to the "shame" feelings (which are way out of proportion with anything you did)and I still get these. I still get the "negative introject" or "internal crititcal parent" popping up and I think reminding yourself that you are not stupid or different to anyone else, but just human helps.

Our parents were so black and white that we were either doing something well or we were "awful". Don't know if you know the rhyme about the girl "who had a little curl right in teh middle of her forehead. When she was good she was very very good but when she was bad she was horrid". My mother used to say this to me and it occurred to me recently what a narcissitic tool this is for parents. Maybe the little girl wasn't either very good or very bad, maybe she was just human!

PS I meant that my stepfather never physically sexually abused me, not that he wasn't violent to me - he was.

Not got 2 hours spare today! But OMG!!! That rhyme 'there once was a little girl...'etc...my MIL quoted that about her grandchild just this week to me!! Telepathic again Pages...

Said grandchild is a nightmare to her family, but in her favour so is her mother and grandmother she has no chance of growing up normal. She's lovely with me and school can't praise her highly enough .

Gosh what a great thread. I'm only checking in every so often (about to pop out number two, so not capable of much!), but it's a breath of sanity.

Just spent the day with my parents (love my dad, put up with spending time with my mum as they seem to be joined at the hip). So depressed throughout the day, even in the lead up to the day, and then felt the depression melt away as we drove away from their place.

When I'm in the same room as my mum and she's trying to maintain this air of us being part of a happy stable family, I feel pent up rage at how she treated me as a child, and at how her depressions still affect the whole family. I feel like standing up like at the end of that film Festen, and exposing her (unlike Festen there was no sexual abuse, but physical and emotional).

But then I don't - why not? Why would it be so hard to say something true and honest for once, to break the veneer of the perfect family? Why do I still feel I am part of a secret pact to maintain the illusion that mommy is perfect and everything is ok? Is it I wonder that I realise no good will come of it, that I am freer in my mind by keeping quiet? That I feel that I "win" most emphatically by simply having a healthy loving home life of my own that is completely separate from her?

Lovemybabes, I think that's it - you have to be prepared for the consequences of the confrontation and maybe for you a) your life is working well and you are happy - the anger at your mother containable and confined to the occasions when you are in the same room as her and b) your relationship with your dad is not worth risking by blowing the whole thing apart.

I think if the past had remained the past that's where it would have stayed for me too. I wouldn't necessarily have seen the point in dragging up old hurts and wounds had it not been for the fact that my mother is still toxic. In confronting my mother I was entirely prepared for the loss of all my siblings if necessary (though lucky to have my older brother on side) because the alternatives were to carry on carrying the family pain and shame for them, and I wasn't prepared to do that anymore.

PS Here's to staying sane! I actually think my mother is losing the plot a bit, as did her mother before her, and possibly that's the fallout from living a lie all her life...

Hi just in at hearing the rhyme 'there was a little girl, whio had a little girl'

Haven't heard that since I 'was' a little girl. Didn/t think anyone else knew about it?

*curl

Hello all,
My kids (13 & 15 yrs) ask me, "What are you reading?"
"But We Took You to Stately Homes!"

I would like to recommend a book. I do not know if it has been mentioned in the thread yet or not...and Pages, this is not directed at you or your comments about allowing ourselves to feel-even anger (which is so true)...the book is

Anger Management: 6 Critical Steps to a Calmer Life, by Peter Favaro, PhD
The little ditty on the cover:
"Identify What's Setting You Off and Why; Find the Calm While Navigating the (Inevitable) Storm; Relinquish Toxic Anger in Your Life-For Good"

I read it to learn about the anger in others and it helped explain their methods of operation and why those methods may seem logical to the angry person. My Older Sister recommended it as her dh was/is in need of some guidance in this area-and thankfully he is improving.

In several places it describes Middle Sister's interactions with people so specifically accurate that it kind of sent shivers up my spine. She is a 'predatory angry' person, according to my unprofessional estimation of the circumstances. (But why do I feel the need to qualify it? That IS what she is.)

The book makes the distinction between the frustrated angry person: self-destructive tendency (self-isolating); and the predatory angry person: other-[person] destructive (elevate themselves by persecuting others).

Yes, I see me and my solitude, but I don't presume to make other people "pay for it".

Back to the predatory anger...some points covered, which explains how they operate, are:
Lack of empathy
Desensitized to other's feelings
Revenge motivation
Strong sense of entitlement

I skipped Middle Sister's Cookie Bake on the 2nd (I've been to the last 2 or 3 but don't always go). She called me for directions for icing cookies. But first she tells me that I am the best baker and the Queen of Icing (like I'm someone at the office she needs to butter up before asking a favor? or what- oh, build me up to her picture of perfection?) to which I said "No, no, no, I am not". I felt the little tense nano-second of terseness- "Well-anyway...". I kindly helped her the best that I could and she said she'd call back and tell me how everything went. But she hasn't called back yet. Is that my punishment? I'll take it .

The past few weeks, I had the glimmer of hope that she had a clue to backing off of being so bossy and pushy...but just now, I believe that the dawning ice age is her pro-active (but with passive-aggressive tactic) management of me-she'll teach me a lesson. Christmas is going to be 'interesting' .

I have several things I want to post to many of you. But I need to watch my over saturation of these deeply felt subjects-especially over the holidays.

This is my 10th year as an 'orphan' (Mom passed on in '80 and Dad in '98-they were a little older when I was born). I would like to offer encouragement to those of you without parent contact-for whatever reason-to please try to enjoy the holidays for yourself. Find or pick out your favorite things to enjoy: the decorations, the cooking, the sales! , the music-my favorite. And try to take the most delight as you can in setting your own traditions-it is sooo cool: you can do what you want! Drop the guilt, the 'should do this', 'should serve and eat that', 'should follow this schedule', etc. It is not selfish to enjoy the holidays.

To those of you in grieving for a loved one, , ... it is a melancholy time. It is ok to cry of course, and missing someone is powerfully painful and probably will never really ever go away completely, imho. I hope that you are far enough along in the process to give the grief its due (even as a scheduled appointment-light a candle or some acknowledging action), then try your best to allow yourself some pleasure.

I hope this can be helpful to someone, and thank you for helping me so much.

PS
I did let Middle Sister know that I wouldn't be there for the cookie bake, nor would my dc-prior commitments.

Thanks for the book reccomendation, Toomany. I think I need that for myself. I don't know why-maybe because its winter, but I'm having to watch myself. I feel like I might fall apart at any moment. Our appartment is getting messier, I'm sleeping later with DD (until 9:30 today and about 10:30 by the time I did her breakfast and got her out of pyjamas), and we're not going to our mother and toddler groups in the morning because I can't get there on time. Me and DH are bickering more, and (the biggest sign) I'm logging onto this thread more frequently.
But its okay I think.
Pages, I was thinking about something you wrote- about "carrying the family pain", and then not being willing to do that anymore. Do you think this is why our mothers are so resistant to our independance and separating- because they might have to start shouldering some of the pain?
I don't think its only pain. Its shame too. I want to hand back the deep sense of shame that I feel for just existing. I remember as a child that in the morning before school my mother would give me a beating and say some terrible things, (or my father may have done so at the weekend), and I remember trying to stifle my tears so I didn't go to school with red eyes because of the shame that someone might suspect I was being abused. I felt that if anyone found out, they would know what a freak I really was . The shame was inccredible.

I want to hand that back to them. My God, the shame belongs to them, not to me!! I feel sorry for them that they might have to face up to the shame for the people they are, but again, that is their shame to face, not mine to carry for them. And as long as I kept acting as though nothing was wrong, I was relieving them of their burden by carrying a sense of self-loathing that should rightly be carried by them. I think thats why our parents loathe to see us happy- it tells them that maybe we were okay after all, and if there's nothing wrong with us, then perhaps they are the ones with the problem after all. I think this is why my parents have always openly tried to sabotage my chances at happiness over the years. If I am miserable and can'T cope with life its because I was born like that, and they were right all along. But if I seem to be thriving without them- well, what does that say?

Hi Sakura-

I think it is because they see us as an extension of themselves, or as their possession rather than individuals in our own right. Also I believe they just dont have the capacity to operate in any other way. I mean if they saw us as individuals with seperate Identities, needs, wants and emotions, how would they ever relate to that? They dont have the capacity to empathise with any other emotion, need feeling or want other than their own!

I was reading that the main hurdle for 'us' is that in a family with a 'normal' climate a child hits thier teens and begins on the path to individuation....WE were not allowed to do that beacause that was threatening to our parents. Therefore our childhood is incomplete. The process is incomplete, and we become 'adult children'. Again refferring back to a normal household, the teen would set off on that precarious path of independence and invariable stumble and fall along the way. The parent would pick them up, dust them off, give them a gentle re-assuring squeeze and gently push on their way.
Not so in our households. My mother became progressively worse as I ventured toward my teens. Any movement toward that path of independance and I would be hung, drawn and quatered.

So as 'adult children' maybe sakura, we both continue to beat ourselves for gaining any sort of ground in the independence stakes. Yep I have oftrn felt myself crumble the same way as you.

I think what we need to do is be strong for ourselves, we need to 'grow ourselves up' and complete the process. We need to become our own nurturing parents. So if we do stumble along the way to independence, we mustn't beat ourselves up. Instead we must dust ourselves off, tell ourselves...you know what that's ok...then gently nudge ourselves back on the path.

So for you sakura....when you say you didnt get up til 9.30. Tell yourself...So what, maybe I need the rest. When you dont make it to toddler group....You say...So what! Maybe I just didnt fancy the company today. Its nearly xmas I need to wind down anyway, there's always next term.

They beat you before school because they were crap parents...... This is as much a message to myself as it is to you.

Oh, thank you Smithfield for that lovely post. It makes sense about the individuation- thats why they go loopy at milestones- weddings, birth of a baby etc. My mother said about my wedding: "Why doesn't she wait a few years until I can afford it? Why is she doing this to me?" Totally seeing me as a dependant child who would need her permission and financial help to get married!

What can we do to become more independant? I feel that I have created a childlike situation for myself because I live in a country where I barely speak the language so I have to totally rely on DH to sort out bills and paperwork etc. I wonder if I've manufactured my life like this. I have a big debt after doing 2 degrees and its only recently I've felt I have the guts to look at the situation and fathom a way of paying it off. Before that I just pretended it wasn't there. My mother always loomed over me as though she was the "saviour" of my out of control financial situation instead of calmly teaching me about money, savings and investment.
There are many other childlike things that I do, so I was wondering if there were any books on this subject. The thought of wills, pensions etc scares me. I really am a child in this respect. But then again, maybe its just because I have never been shown how to deal with these things. Maybe other parents teach their kids about money and life.

Sakura, so about the beating before school thing, what a huge burden you carried. I too am amazed at the lengths I went to to keep up the semblance of normality. I remember how "normal" we were to the outside world and some of the things my mother and stepdad did to paint themselves in a positive light. No-one would have known, and to be fair, for me that WAS normality, but like you I had a deep sense of shame, which is easily triggered to this day. I was vaguely aware that my other friends didn't have home lives like mine but it was just one of those things - we didn't talk about it. Well, one of the last things my mother said to me recently was "I think you had a good upbringing" so where would I have started?!!!

I entirely agree with what Smithfield said (what an excellent post!)- my counsellor too said that narcissists see their children in 2D, extensions of themselves. But I do think you are right Sakura, that pushing us to carry all the emotions so that we can be "the bad/emotional/over-sensitive (read "wrong") one" and they can be the good/normal ones is part of the family dynamic. My mother has always been emotionally cold, as has my younger brother (although I think he has anger problems)- crying is a real sign of weakness to both of them. And I think you are right that now we are refusing to carry it for them, they must have to face up to it in some sense. As my counsellor said, the family system is deep rooted and if something changes it has an effect on everyone else.

And yes, that is interesting about weddings etc as the symbols of our independence having a negative effect on our parents. The whole thing actually kicked off (before the comment about DS1 and his SN coming out) because my sister got married and I was accused by my mother and younger brother of being selfish and self-centered by trying to organise a secret celebration for her .

I can't help re the "growing up" thing other than to say that I really do feel grown up now - always was finanically, careerwise, etc, but emotionally I was stuck at about age 6, let alone a teenager! - and the only thing I can put this down to is the counselling (and the confrontation of my mother of course). I really don't feel like I need a mother anymore, and am not really emotionally (or financially) dependent on DH either.

I do still struggle with the "extended" shame feelings but I think there are stages with that and I think I am at the "midsight" stage, where I am able to recognise it, identify it and tell myself that it is an "old" feeling. Telling myself that I am not stupid/wrong etc but just human seems to help a lot...Having said that, if anyone does know any good books about "shame" and how to hand it back, I too would be interested.

Sakura, don't be hard on yourself. I think it is the time of year, definitely, being holed up indoors because of the weather, and the lack of daylight (is this the same in Japan?)sends you a bit stir crazy. We are never out of our PJs or done with breakfast before lunchtime at weekends, and I think what you said about "Groundhog Day" is true for many of us. Just remember this too will pass - as does everything - as the DC grow. Sounds to me like something is shifting for you - maybe some changes are afoot?

PS Hope that didn't sound patronising. Knowing other people feel the same things as I do (i.e on this thread) has also been invaluable to me in "growing up" so I don't want to set myself apart!! Just meant that I feel very much as if I am the mother now, and my mother is a little girl.

Thanks PAges, not patronising at all. I really hope to God that this movement we're making affects the rest of the family. I'm thinking of my brothers here, who have so many problems because of the way my parents are(depression, social phobia, alcoholism, aggression, inability to commit to one person-- its just endless, and so sad, because I know they are all gorgeous, lovely boys who have been damaged) I hope that if I rock the boat, changes will happen in their lives, but I suspect the burden I was carrying has shifted to them. SO it just depends if they're pushed enough to snap, like I was- the worm will turn!

When I read your posts about your mother, again I feel like I'm lucky that my mother was so overt in her weird behaviour because that makes it so much easier for me. Yours has done some pretty crazy stuff, all in a secret covert way,Mine also said "You had a good upbringing" "I've done the best I can" etc etc.- there are so many toxic phrases out there, aren't there, to be used by these toxic people. Like the "little curl" song that my grandmother used to sing all the time. When I hear the things your mother saiys, I know it could be my mother talking.

Winters not as bad in the region that I live as it is at home. I can still get out each day, and we get some blue sky, which I am grateful for. It helps a lot--but I do miss the cosiness of a British winter and there's no Xmas here- its just a normal, working day

My mother is such a bitch. I have known it for years, but have only now come to realise it.

hi pages just poped in to say hi and hope the wicked witch isnt getting you down at the mo

Hi all, I've only recently discovered this thread but so wish I had found it sooner, my story is the same as all of yours but different only in the detail IYKWIM. I am going to try and draft a condensed version of my story and post it later, if i told you all of it it would be a book in itself.

I started printing the thread on the weekend thinking i would post once i had read it all, but once i had finished printing all 200 A4 pages of it i realised it would probably take me months to read it all as i only really have about an hour a day in the evenings once the DC's are in bed to read in peace. But I intend to read each and every post as so far I have identified with something in nearly each and every post i have managed to read so far. There are so many words of wisdom, so much pain and sadness but also so much hope for a different future both for ourselves and our DC's and just knowing this thread exists has given me a boost.

For the time being I thought I would just introduce myself and tell you a little bit of my story and where I am on the journey that all those on this thread are on.

Ok, well I'm 37, married with 2 DC's, a DD age 4 and DS age 19 months. I cut off all contact with my parents in July 2006 and since then have been on an emotional rollercoaster or in an emotional washing machine, sometimes it's on the spin cycle, sometimes it's gently washing, sometimes it's wringing, but so far it hasn't stopped and to be honest I don't know if it ever will.

I guess I had the 'realisation' as Sakura perfectly describes it in around January this year. Before the realisation I had for years always been tense when around my family, I was unable to be myself with them and always became tense, angry, rude and snappy and I never quite knew why but at the same time deep down somewhere I did know why; sounds strange I know but that's the way it was for me. Anyway, in hindsight i now think that having DD 4 years ago was a trigger point for me in causing some of the deeply suppressed childhood memories to start making their way to the surface but at that point the memories remained suppressed. I then had my gorgeous DS in May 2006 and I think, again in hindsight, that this was the final trigger that caused the suppressed feelingsto burst into my consciousness and as so many others have said, something inside me just snapped and all my feelings came rushing up like a volcanoe and I just knew that I had to cut off my parents and that is what i did in July 2006.

Even after cutting off all contact my suppressed memories were still not clear and not fully in my consciousness but it was as if they were gradually filtering back, randomly and it was in January this year that a picture started forming I suppose, the memories and feelings came into focus and I realised that I had been abused as a child and that my so called family were highly dysfunctional.

Once I had the realisation it was as if I knew what I was dealing with and I too came across the book Toxic Parents and read it from cover to cover in the one night! I devoured any books on the subject and found anything by Alice Miller to be amazingly insightful and spot on, which is not surprising considering she too was abused as a child; Alice Miller is now a psychotherapist and well known and respected authority on the subject of child abuse and I would highly recommend her books and website.

I have been seeing a counsellor since June and he has helped me a immensely, in fact I don't think I would have got through the last 6 months without him. I am so grateful to every single person who has posted on this thread and especially Pages who started it. I have felt very alone in all of this and it is good, but sad, to know I'm not the only one and there are others out there who understand what I'm going through.
Now, a bit about my family. I think now that my dad is a psychopath in the clinical sense, he fits all the criteria perfectly, he is also a bully and narcissist. He was verbally, physically, emotionally and psychologically abusive towards me since around the age of 11 and also towards my mum and 2 younger sisters, although I feel i bore the brunt of his abuse as compared to my 2 sisters, the youngest of whom was his favourite so although he did abuse her it was not as severe as what he did to me. Like many of your mothers mine was a coward, she was scared of my dad and too weak and pathetic and ultimately too selfish to stand up to him not even for the sake of her children. She portrays herself as a victim and I think she sees herself almost as another one of the children in the family instead of one of the adults. I was never close to her, I feel she totally abandoned me in favour of my two younger sisters who were clearly her favourites and growing up the 3 of them were always together and much closer than i was with any of them. So all in all I grew up always feeling completely lost and alone, like an outsider, as if i was the odd one out and as though i didn't belong. I had no-one to turn to about my dad's abuse, certainly not my mum who just buried her head in the sand and tried to pretend it wasn't happening because she was too scared to face up to it. In fact I remember I used to stand up for her instead of her standing up for me, and I was only around 11 years old at the time.

What has hurt me most about this whole thing is that I have fallen out with my sisters because they are completely unaware that our family is dysfunctional and that in fact all 3 of us are victims (although I feel i am a survivor not a victim). So they are angry with me for upsetting my parents who now no longer see my children since i cut off contact and I'm sure my mum is playing her victim role to the hilt and feeling sorry for herself that she is missing out on her grandchildren and also portraying me as the ungrateful child as they too 'took us to loads of stately homes!' (or their equivalent!). I am back on talking terms with my sisters, but with one of them our parents are a taboo subject and we don' talk about it and with the other one, she has said she wants to talk but we haven't yet had the opportunity to do so.

I have also had health problems as a result of all the stress and pressure caused by all this and a month ago I felt completely and utterly drained and burnt out. My mind always seems to be racing and processing all my new thoughts and feelings and I am also looking after our 2 DC's alone and I think it all just got too much and i felt ready to just collapse.

Anyway, I think I'm starting to ramble so will sign off here. Just one more thing, there is an excellent website and helpline run by the charity NAPAC, National Association for People Abused as Children and i would urge you all to take a look at the website.

Take care and love to you all,
x

Pages...we're rapidly running out of thread space...I think they run to 1000 posts...we're on 951 now...

Can the next one be entitled 'But we took you to stately homes' a thread for adult children of abusive families...

Or shall we just have a competition...

Hi oneplusone, found myself nodding my head alot to your post...and I like the washing machine analogy, very appropriate, think I've gone thro the fast spin recently..especially at night, have I met another fellow insomniac? The being different around family, I get totally. I never smiled a genuine smile around them esp not in pics, I just look strained. And my mother and sister were in cahoots all the time, always them against me. Very lonely and isolating. Are you alone as in no dp/dh around?
Really glad you found us here, its never too late to get more support, tho I wish I found this thread in feb 06 when I broke contact with my mother, 8 mths pg. Looking back with fresh eyes again on the situation I realise it was the thought of reliving my abuse every day with my mother and father sat nodding their heads and laughing at things 'i did' over and over again, day after day, week after week with my dd in the same room.

Smithfield (replying to your post of 4th dec 15:06) In 'divorce a parent' they suggest first year is year of anniversary's and its the hardest year. However, althought in some ways I found it a very bleak time, xmas was okay, just relieved I didn't have to do the emotional juggling I had to do each year. This year I fear is slightly different. I think I've got FOG about my mother at the moment (from borderline personality disorder - Fear Obligation Guilt). Fighting it off as best I can tho! Hope your xmas goes alright, like someone posted, make it your own with your own little traditions.

Okay, now got to go again, dd awake early! And no tea in house...pizza again then!

Back some time in future!

xxx