My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry

[Pages]

I posted on here a while back asking the question "Would you cut your mother out of your life" because of a really hurtful thing she did to me which she refuses to apologise for. I think my position has always been that it would be the last resort - I think my question should really have read "would you risk your mother cutting you out of HER life?". Well I risked it and she has...

Sorry to go over old ground but she told me over a year ago that my SIL found it hard to be around my son who has special needs. I didn't confront my brother and SIL until recently because they are really unapproachable and part of me felt that I had to just live with it. It came out a few months ago in a bit of heated discussion with my brother about something else. I immediately apologised to my mum for the way I had delivered it to my brother but said I felt it did need to be addressed (I have to protect my son, he will pick up on people's feelings about him). My mum denied having said anything of the sort and she, my SIL and brother all called me a liar (SIL said some really nasty things) and said I had invented the whole conversation, and my mum got the rest of the family to gang up on me.

My mum has said very little to my face but has badmouthed me and manipulated behind the scenes including trying to get the one (older)brother who has stood by me against me against me, accusing me of splitting up the family, etc.

Me and my older brother sent her an email telling her that we don't like the way the family operates, the scapegoating, backstabbing, and manipulating that goes on. We also told her that we wanted her to acknolwedge how bad our childhood was (my stepdad was physically and emotionally abusive to us both for several years, my mum left us home alone when we were really small, etc). We told my mum that this has really affected our lives (Neither me or b have much inner confidence and I still have nightmares about the past. I am having counselling now).

My mum said nothing to me and b but showed my younger brother and sister the letter (even though we asked her not to and to talk to us about it instead)and my sister had a go at me, said my mum was really upset and had told her what had "really happened" and that we had made it all up, it wasn't that bad. I sent an email asking to be treated with more respect or be left alone. I heard nothing from any of them till now.

My mum recently started texting and contacting my older b, we are both certain she was doing her usual "divide and rule" bit, trying to get him on side so I am the one left out. He emailed her back a few days ago and said she must apologise to me for calling me a liar and take on board our concerns if she wants a relationship with either of us. I have to say, I never wanted to issue ultimatums, but could not live with the alternatives which would be to just not be myself or true to myself.

My mum has emailed him back and said it is too late, we have both hurt her to much and it is beyond redemption and that we need to sort our own lives out and leave her to get on with hers. She called me false because I had a close relationship with her and never said anything like this before. I accept that I did used to just say "the past is the past" and because I have always been too petrified of losing her to ever cross her, so have accepted blame, guilt, comments behind my back about me and DH, and have carried on being loving and compliant towards her till now. We did have a "close" relationship but on the basis that I agreed with everything she said.

I feel okay, actually. I suppose I have been slowly accepting this may be the outcome for months. But I can't quite believe that rather than discuss things, debate things, get things out into the open and (what is hardest for her - apologise)so we can move on to a new and better level in our dealings with her she is willing instead to lose two of her children. Just feel sad about that really...

Good morning, afternoon, evening all: it may take all day to post and all day for it to be read. I was ready to severely edit, but decided not to...big scab. Is this the longest post? I have gone on and on like Miss Bates in Emma!

I will admit that I (dh,too) have a personal policy of not looking for problems, which has helped our marriage endure, no doubt. So in digging into this...I feel like I'm jumping into a dark hole and just hope I'll be able to get out again without finding myself dripping in hatred for Middle Sister.

But Middle Sister's behavior is so unacceptable that I need to build my wall for me as well as for my family. It is time. No reservation, no qualification, no more 'go with the flow' (ie: her flow ).

Thank you for the prompt, Ally. Your question "Was Middle Sister ever corrected?" was right on target-the perfect question. I feel I ought to fill in with more back ground about childhood- sorry it turned out to be a long freight train full. I am still working on the answer (it's dark in this hole ).

My parents treated us (3 daughters) equally, and we all believe it. Now I have the urge to question that.

Older Sis was adopted. Parents never brought it up past telling us (or did we find out from mean cousins?) and we never threw it up into her face as children (maybe once or twice 'joked' about it as adults but in kind hearted way). Mean cousins would though, very hurtful. After rejection by social clique (mercy! small town politics!-part of the overall web of circumstances), Older Sis turned into a rock and roll hippy flower child of the '70's which griped my conservative parents no end. She rode horses (Dad bought one when she was 13) and she taught me how to ride when I was 10. Boys were around alot, and she did get into trouble with drugs and law (no jail). She was the one to stay out all night once or twice, partied through the first semester of college 24/7 (Dad put a stop to that-no more college) and she finally ran away the following spring to return a few months later pg. Parents got her a termination (I've never spoken to her about it but she has expressed remorse at never having children). BUT she straightened out, got married and became a nurse, and she is well respected as a pro-active patient advocate for the elderly. She works in a nursing home, not an easy job.

Middle Sister is two years younger, a goody two shoes, church and school choirs. She probably did/does have middle child issues (I'll try to look into that angle of it). She developed a weight problem in adolescence that has continued to the present. She was not athletic before her weight problem and definitely not afterward. She got on a horse once, it ran away with her, she would not ride again (may have ridden once on a vacation, but generally does not ride). Even though she was a part of a social group from choir, she never had a boyfriend. She liked -perhaps was in love with- one of the neighborhood guys, but he laughed at her because of her weight. I don't think she ever got over it because she still has never had a boyfriend. She socializes, in college and presently, in groups including guys, but no relationship. In college, she drank a great deal with the sorority-a point of pride to drink guys under the table. She has a masters degree in education, but is a project manager in the telecom industry and has miraculously survived 9 -or more- corporate buyouts with out ever getting laid off.

I am 16 months younger than Middle Sister. I was a 'tom-boy'-loved sports. I recently realized that I was simply born an athlete back when that wasn't the best thing to be born as for a girl-early '60's. I liked the guys in the neighborhood (I wasn't the only girl in the neighborhood that played outside) and could keep up in the games, but I wasn't promiscuous with them (too young at that point). They wouldn't see me that way, I didn't care-oblivious to it-didn't bother me. By high school, my athletics turned to swimming, horseback riding (I rode Older Sister's horse after she lost interest/left) and martial arts -none related to school-and I was still able to maintain top grades in school. I also had a boyfriend from martial arts class for two years, then refused sex and got dumped-true heart break. I was engaged to be married in college, but broke it off as I recognized it was emotionally abusive and I wanted to 'skip the divorce'. I have a masters degree in and a professional license to practice architecture. Got married, and chose to be a full time SAHM (another discussion) have 2dc and one on the way.

So how could parents treat three so completely different girls equally? I think they had a strategy of responding to problems, especially since Older Sister was not shy in creating them. Middle Sister was an 'angel'. So far, the only circumstance I can think of her being 'corrected' was that she was fussed at for not doing her share of the chores. Parents probably lectured her about her weight, but didn't insist on a diet/exercise program, although she was on the swim team for a while. Not a greatly competitive team, but... Mom must have insisted she swim. If they ever said anything to her about her
self-centeredness and they probably did, it was an argument and she probably ended up in her room for a while, but no change. If she ever did volunteer work, it wasn't significant enough for me to remember it. She probably did some with the sorority, but that was probably more identified with the party afterward. If she was forced to do something at someone else's idea or direction as a child, she'd grudgingly do it with a great and dramatic negative attitude.

However, I caught hell simply by association with my Older Sister. We rode horses together, therefor it was presumed that I was destined to suffer influence from her and make bad decisions. I was accused of doing drugs and of being promiscuous -unfair and not true.

I spent time with my Dad on weekends, being his shop or 'farm' assistant in what ever project he was working on. I helped haul a lot of fire wood when he added a wood stove onto the furnace system. I don't remember Middle Sister helping Dad much. She was closer to Mom and spent more time with her than with Dad. I was the opposite. I can't say Middle Sister and I were close growing up, not like I was with Older Sister-through the horses.
I think because I was a tom-boy/athlete, my mother was dismissive towards me in terms of bothering to give much motherly advice, or ballet and piano lessons (I try to be fair: other sisters didn't exactly excel so why waste the resource on the third? Perhaps I was spared the wrath of the clique mean girls and should not hold this in resentment , or Mom's medical bills may have strained the budget at that time -forgiveness.)
She did tell me to wear a dress or skirt twice a week to school, which I did. Hated it because of teasing/harassment, but did it anyway. The teasing stopped after awhile. So, I changed. I remember cooking with Mom and learning to sew some basic things and gardening. So I realize I wasn't ignored across the board- off and on, she taught me stuff that she could and those were loving actions. She wasn't able to teach me social things though. That was the neglect I now feel. While other needs were met, the social piece of the pie is massively significant and so obvious when absent. But enough pieces of the pie were there, in combination with the now known as therapeutic swimming, horseback riding and martial arts activities (where I got my self-esteem), I believe I survived better than would be expected.
In terms of Middle Sister, guidance about self-centeredness was neglected or ineffective perhaps because it was a social skill as well, Mom just couldn't do it.

Sorry this has gone on so long and I realize that if Middle Sister found this and read it, the information here would be telling. Chances are small, non-existent.
However, part of my wall is not to be concerned if 'her toes get stepped on', that card is worn out.

Time for a coffee break lunch. Thanks for your patience.

Thanks Smithfield . I'm not feeling very brave today, very shaky and feeling sick. Don't know what I'd do without this thread.

Accepting these memories is definitely throwing a new light on my relationship with my mother though I'm struggling to make total sense of things at the moment. She's always been very controlling, manipulative and critical, rarely praised me as a child and when she did it was resentfully and usually because someone outside the family was around so she had to be seen to be being nice. She also in many ways never "connected" with us, like some part of a normal emotional makeup was missing. But like Pages for a long time my mother and I were very close (too close). Then I met dh, who loves me for who I am, and had ds, and I started to examine my relationship with her and her parenting of me and started to wonder how she could have said and done the things to me that she did. And when my father's affair came to light and she wouldn't let me make my own decision about when I would see him again (and more to the point when I'd let my ds see him, which was really the issue, not me seeing my father), that was the final straw for me after all the years of emotional cruelty. But of course when I was "in" the family I didn't see it as abnormal behaviour. I thought all mothers were like her and all fathers were like him. I've tried to work out what makes them both as they are. My father was sent to boarding school at 7, which can't have been a good experience, and my mother's mother was desperate for both her daughters to marry well-off men and to keep them at any cost. And my mum and my aunt have both done that, the cost being that both of them have put up with affairs for a significant part of their marriages. So both my parents are damaged people and they've lacked the emotional maturity and insight into themselves to do anything other than perpetuate patterns from their past (and my father is a classic narcissist so of course he could never imagine that anything he does could be anything but right and he has no regard at all for the impact of his actions on others, we're all just bit part players in his grand life). Do I sound calm about this? I'm aware I may be sounding analytical and reasonable and I'm worried I'm keeping it all too much under control (I just can't let my guard down in front of ds, I crumbled in front of him the afternoon after my second session with the therapist and just couldn't stop crying and he was so upset and I felt awful about losing control ). The book I'm reading has a section at the on safe physical expression of anger and I should probably get to that bit quickly, but there's only so much of the book I can read at each sitting as it's emotionally and physically exhausting.

I do wonder if my mother noticed/suspected about any of what went on when I was young (and I have this tape of her voice in my head from when I was very young where she's saying "you wicked girl", and I can't remember what I'd said or done, but her tone is one of absolute hatred). I was characterised by my mother early on as a liar (which I don't think I am) and taught to disbelieve my own instincts, and told I was lazy (when actually my problem is that I never stop and have quite bad workaholic tendencies. I've recently managed to cut back on work, perhaps because I've realised I can't use work as a way of running away from this forever because it's been having an adverse effect on my health and on dh and ds too). The therapist I saw said that in her opinion there is no way my mother can not have suspected that my father was having an affair given that it went on for 20 years (at least). She felt that my mother chose to ignore the signs because keeping her marriage intact was more important than anything else, and there could be some truth in that. She was determined to stick with him whatever he did, and I do believe that she would have ignored/explained away anything suspicious he had done in relation to me.

Hi
Ally- the terrible twos are a challenge. Something that worked for me most of the time was:
Every time I said 'no', I would try to say why in as few words as possible, and more importantly, to give an acceptable alternative to do instead of the 'no'.
Like: Please don't play in the street. It is dangerous because of traffic. Play in the yard instead. Thanks.
Or: Please don't say [that]. [That] can hurt feelings. Try saying [this] instead. Thanks.
I try to throw in the please and thank you when ever possible, too .
Close supervision at this time helps so much to do just as you described: nip it in the bud. Try not to be hovering and controlling though - although it is about controlling the toddler so she can learn to control herself.
Too many 'no's in quick succession would be frustrating for anyone at any age. If the acceptable alternative doesn't work, then it would signal time to change activity or location or detach from the negative circumstance altogether. Try again some other time.
Just as a suggestion, if forbidden object is very precious, you might consider packing it away for a few years or it may just be a continuous source of tension.

Hi
Ally- the terrible twos are a challenge. Something that worked for me most of the time was:
Every time I said 'no', I would try to say why in as few words as possible, and more importantly, to give an acceptable alternative to do instead of the 'no'.
Like: Please don't play in the street. It is dangerous because of traffic. Play in the yard instead. Thanks.
Or: Please don't say [that]. [That] can hurt feelings. Try saying [this] instead. Thanks.
I try to throw in the please and thank you when ever possible, too .
Close supervision at this time helps so much to do just as you described: nip it in the bud. Try not to be hovering and controlling though - although it is about controlling the toddler so she can learn to control herself.
Too many 'no's in quick succession would be frustrating for anyone at any age. If the acceptable alternative doesn't work, then it would signal time to change activity or location or detach from the negative circumstance altogether. Try again some other time.
Just as a suggestion, if forbidden object is very precious, you might consider packing it away for a few years or it may just be a continuous source of tension.

bearsmom-Firstly I really think you need and 'deserve' some support going through this. It sounds like the therapist you chose was pretty rubbish imo, but I guess there are good and bad in any profession and therapy is no exception.
Would you think of looking for someone else sooner. I can understand the sheer force of emotion you must be feeling right now, so you must find a safe outlet.
Orobably a daft question but are there any RL friends you would trust enought to talk to about this? Your husband? I know you say you have discussed but dont want it to be the focal point of the realtionship but maybe you could talk to him in the meantime?
I also think you should just use this thread as much as you can as well in the interim. keep posting.

Secondly it struck me what you said about the cost to your mother of staying in the marriage;

'my mother's mother was desperate for both her daughters to marry well-off men and to keep them at any cost. And my mum and my aunt have both done that, the cost being that both of them have put up with affairs for a significant part of their marriages.'

I'd say the greatest cost was to you not to her and yet I dont want to go any further than that as I dont feel I have any right to incite your anger especially as you are so vulnerable right now.

Ally90 - you're so on the button with "the only sane person in the madhouse"!

My mother remains to this day a respected and well known member of the religious community, one half of an enduring marriage, with many many 'friends' to her name (none of whom know her).

Yet my clearest memory of her is her running the length of the room to give me a really good kick, with all her bodyweight. This and other things as she slipped in and out of major, and I mean major, depressions.

My gorgeous son has taught me that it wasn't my fault. That my mum has a personality disorder that I can't cure, can't be responsible for. That nothing a child could ever do could justify her behaviour.

Good luck everyone, let's help each other to stay sane in that madhouse!

Hi Smithfield, thanks for your kind words. I've found another therapist nearby and am going to book an appointment with her for after Christmas. I know I should probably talk to someone sooner, but I'm going to try and shut it all out just over Christmas as I'm sick of my parents dominating my every waking thought. I'll keep checking into this thread and am going to try and write my journal every day because that definitely helps to diffuse things and clears my head a bit. It's interesting, in the past few months I've been suffering from a lot of what I'd call misdirected anger, in that I was getting angry at really stupid things (was it on this thread that someone mentioned getting angry because a laundry basket fell over? that sort of thing), not directly at ds or dh but sometimes in their presence, and since I've begun to accept what has happened to me that misdirected anger has gone and I'm no longer getting angry at stupid things. I'm still angry, but I know why and who is to blame.

I couldn't talk to any of my RL friends about this, I think it's just too massive an issue to bring into a friendship. I have a good friend who I've talked to about my problems with my mother and father as a result of his affair, and she understands because she's estranged from her dad but I couldn't burden her with this. She has enough stuff of her own to deal with.

About the cost of my mother staying in the marriage, you're absolutely right, and I'm not at all angry, but grateful to you for pointing it out. I've got so stuck in the mental pattern of feeling like I don't have any right to complain about my childhood because my basic needs for food and shelter were met that I've never really allowed myself to think about what a totally unhealthy environment it was for a child to grow up in. The phrase "but they took me to stately homes" has come up several times on the thread and always brings a wry smile to my face. We were taken to stately homes too, and it was indeed held up as an example of what "caring" parents we had. I was so totally convinced by all the lies my parents told me, it's not proving easy to "reality check" everything, but so much that's been said on this thread helps me to realise that their point of view is the distorted one, not mine.

There have been so many things covered in the last few posts.
bearsmom, its so sad to read about the way your father was towards you- I have no experience of this, but I think we all here understand the feeling of being utterly betrayed by our mothers as you were. And yes, I think she probably knew. The "you wicked girl" comment really upset me, because I recognised at once what you said when you heard a feeling of absolute hatred in your mother's voice.
I think that we try to bury how bad our mothers actually were, because we so desperately want to believe that we were loved. In the daytime, I'm just a person who has a bad relationship with her mum, but sometimes if I'm alone in the dark, I'll get a flashback of a scene or an emotion and it brings the horror of how terrifying it was to be at the mercy of someone with borderline/narcisstic personality disorder (my mother may have bits of both- who knows)

I think this admition of how bad it was is the "abyss" that we keep talking about. When we face our mothers and our family its really like jumping into an abyss and like we're losing ourselves. Its horrifying because we've been taught to fear them, and that they're god and that terrible things are going to happen to us if we "disobey" them. I haven't seen my mother now for 2 years and it is becoming easier. I'm not thinking of her as an omnipotent sourceress who can wave her wand and crumble my life like she had the power to when I was living at home. I'm trying to think of her more as a sad, miserable, soon-to-be old woman and it puts it into perspective. In the past I was just a child, but as we age, we get more power- more money, our place in society. The tables are turning in the sense that I realise now that if she ever took me to court, for example, like she threatened to- to get access to my daughter- perhaps take her away from me , there is a lot in my favour. Whereas as a child, she would often threaten me with the authorities- not sure in what circumstances now, just a general feeling that she had the weight of the law on her side so could do whatever the hell she liked to us. Its awful to talk in terms of power and control, but my God, I've had to put away my floaty images of a loving mother, and realise that "the narcissist is dangerous as Sam VAknin says.

"my brain doesn't need to protect me from memories which would have made it impossible to remain part of my birth family. "

This sentence is perfect, because it is exactly the reason why getting away from our mothers is so vital in our recovery.

"The abuse I suffered was much less than many people do and sometimes I think perhaps I'm making a big deal out of nothing,"

Ahem- every single one of us on here thinks like this. We're all reading each other's stories thinking "Oh my GOd- this woman was really abused. I'm just an imposter"

Also, I think this came up earlier in the thread, but my MIL is like your mother. She was raised to keep her husband at any cost (FIL is having an on-going affair that we're not supposed to refer to) She misfired when she started bullying me after the birth of DD because she assumed I was cut from the same cloth as her. Her other DIL is a carbon copy of her- they live together and DIL and the eldest son are going to get the entire inheritence in return for this. Great , she's welcome to it. Just keep all your madness away from me and my little family!

toomany, the first thing that jumped out at me from your post was that your parents "got" your sister a termination. I mean, there was no discussion, it seems. That was the only option for her. I think that must have been so terrible for her. .

Also I can't remember who said it, but this line is what we all need to bear in mind:

"My gorgeous son has taught me that it wasn't my fault"

I think this every day. children are first of all born happy- we know this because at 3 months all they do is smile at everyone. Then now DD is 14 months, and to see the look of pride and pleasure on her face if she's done something that she'll know we like is just amazing because it shows me that children basically all adore their parents and want to please them and be accepted by them. THe least a parent can do in return is to accept the child. Our mothers must have been so so damaged and flawed to have treated us the way they did when we were tiny and vulnerable. I mean, thats the gift isn't it? You suffer 9 months of pregnancy, then childbirth then the sleepless newborn nights, and then at some point you realise that a child is a little gift that you've been allowed to keep for a while. How on earth can people abuse the child, or not care if they hurt the child, or reject them? Well as I say, if anything, it shows us how mad our mothers actually were/are

Hi
Bearsmom- hugs and holding your hand. You have made a start-and starting is often the hardest part. I know that is a generalization but I think it is true. Find the strength to stand your ground. Your foundation is changing and the physical stress on you (from anxiety to even lowered immunity to common ailments) can be profound-but it is temporary. If you get writer's cramp from journaling try a hobby to give mind and body a rest. Mine is quilting, and that gives personal satisfaction from producing a tangible object.

I'm printing out the thread.

Sakura- "...the narcissist is dangerous...". This has been creeping into the back of my head as to what Middle Sister might try to do. Then I get an immediate feeling of 'oh, I'm being paranoid', or 'don't be ridiculous'. She hasn't done anything physically dangerous before, but she is changing (mid-life crisis?) and her sense of entitlement is growing.

Message withdrawn

Don't hate yourself Danae, I know it is easier said that done.

As the children get older you find yourself saying/doing things you swore you would never do, and it is not until you have done or said them that you realise.

I have been there myself, but I always apologise, explain that it is not okay for mummy to behave like that and that I love them more than I can explain.

It is a bit of a vicious circle that our parents have passed on to us, but I am determined to break it, and I can see that it is already working, my children are not scared of me or my husband, and I was even sent on time out by my daughter once for being bad.

The fact that you realised that you did something wrong that scared your daughter is a big step.

Danae, reality check!!

You are NOT YOUR MOTHER. You copy her mannerisms like I do my mother, and like you, mine come out in moments of stress. I too get stressed when my dd doesn't nap when/as long as expected. I get frustrated and angry when I can't get a break. Its NORMAL to be stressed when on call 24/7!

It was not okay to do as you did today. Do you shout at her often? Or just today? I'm asking so you can get some perspective, a general overview. Don't use this to spiral out of control/feeling sick/giving up. Don't use it as a stick to beat yourself with. You've had enough of that in your life and you can do without it. How will you improve if you hurt yourself all the time?

You need to have someone to call but you sound completely alone which is not a good place to be. What about Homestart, are you in the UK?

Please don't let this spiral. Remind yourself of things.

You are not your mother
You can acknowledge you are wrong and HUG your dd to apologise.
You have a loving dh (guessing your father wasn't if he let your mum treat you like that?)
You are getting therapy

Your okay danae, don't let go of that. Take a deep breath. Take a magazine into living room and let dd play with her toys. Think of warm beaches and the sea lapping onto the shore...calm calm calm....

Now post again when your dh is home and let it all out on here.

xxxxxxxxx

Hi MM!

How you doing?

See Danae...within 1 hour 2 people have just said your okay

Sorry recovering from prolapsed disc so can only sit for about 10 minutes at a time, and ally90 has said it so much better by the time I got back to sitting down again.

Hi Ally, fine apart from my back. So many things I would love to write about her but I can't as you can see from above.

Parents are rearing their ugly heads again and so is my big sister.

Oh ouch! Poor you...!

I won't go asking any involved questions then ;)

Well it is Christmas...of course they will this is the emotional blackmailing family time of year! When we should all be 'together' making our lives a misery enjoying ourselves.

Message withdrawn

danae- just wanted to say i understand where your coming from. We have been here 18months now, still no friends, but then its difficult to have energy to make them when you are dealing with being a mum, working, (and pregnant!).

I understand though how this isolation gets to you and I am sure even if we had ourselves some 'decent' role-models and a 'soft place' to fall there would be days like these.

There is so much more to you than the odd slip up try and remember that. I think you are probably replaying your mothers insult (cos thats all it was!)over and over in your head.
'my mother said i'd be a useless mother'. then when something like this happens...you tell yourself 'see she was right!'

Dont let her win Danae-!

Message withdrawn

It is hard being alone. At some point, I realized that I felt more lonely when with a group of people and solitude was only being alone and not necessarily lonely. I live in an over populated suburban area that is a bedroom community for a larger city and still feel isolated because everyone is so busy with everything it is hard to meet people let alone get to know them.

Danae, Try packing all your mother's words into the basket of a hot air balloon, then lift your arms to the sky and give it a push to launch it. Watch it all just float away on a good stiff breeze never to return again. Unlimited balloons available .

Your dd is probably young enough to not remember these times...there is time for you to make new policies for yourself without the guilt, hate yourself, shame, embarrassment riding your back forever. Under stressful circumstances, I always check myself for a split second to remind myself that I want to treat the situation, circumstance, or person in the manner that I would want to be treated. Kind of like the "golden rule". It has helped me redirect the fatigue driven frustration/anger/exhaustion into just a little more endurance. And a little more. And a little more, etc.

Take things one thing at a time, literally. Take days one day at a time. If that doesn't work, then go to a half day at a time. Or two hours. Or 30 min. Or five minutes...I've been to the point where I just check to see if the second hand is still moving. "Temporary" is a good word.

Please don't hurt yourself anymore. Just stop it. Find an alternative action that isn't destructive- push ups, sit ups. I don't know- I am guessing- but Please stop.
You will be ok. Please know that everyone struggles with infants/toddlers. It is just the nature of the territory.

Just skimmed through the last few days' posts as not much time but just wanted to say danae and others that little ones are hard work and the sheer fact that you realise that shouting/being impatient, etc is not your child's fault is a huge step away from the kind of burden that we all grew up with.

I think it really is the experience of having dc of our own that has made us realise exactly how much love it is possible to feel for one little person, and therefore how lacking in these feelings our own mothers must have been.

What Sakura wrote in her last post just made me laugh because my mother told me before I had my dc that it is only when you have children of your own that you really appreciate your own parents!! It is in fact the opposite that has happened with me - I now realise that something fundamental was missing in the way my mother did and does feel about me.

I took DS2 out shoppping at the weekend and let him play with a snowstorm toy from the display while we shopped. He dropped it 10 mins later, and broke it and I immediately checked his hands and asked him if he was ok, my only concern was if he had cut himself (he hadn't) and so I picked the glass up quickly, and told the staff, and then we carried on shopping and laughing together, and I just thought to myself how lovely it was to just be able to "get over it" as they say - it was my mistake, as i shouldn't have let him play with it, but no harm was done. If I had picked up and broken a toy like that when I was a child, not only would it have been MY fault (not my parents for not watching me), but there would have been hell to pay about how clumsy, stupid, can't leave things alone, etc I was.

Do any of you ever think how nice it is not to be part of the "drama" anymore?

Danae, our daughters are around the same age. I sometimes feel so close to being unhinged too. Sometimes she wants to show me affection, and I'll be so over-stimulated and drained from what seems like her constant need for attention that I'll angrily brush her hand away- a total rejection of her. I don't think she's noticed yet at 14 months, but I'm aware that this is something I'll have to keep tabs on. Somedays I feel like I'm really losing it. Thankfully nearby I have a nursery that has a facility that charges me a set amount (about 7 pound) to drop her off for about 4 hours if I need a break. I haven't used it yet, but its really good to know that if I can't cope one day that there is somewhere to take her. IS there anything similar near you. Can you register her in a nursery and just tell them you don't need it full time, but you work now and again, so need to drop her off occasionally. We don't have our mothers to help us, so we are essentially rasing them on our own and it is very, very hard.

SOmetimes I get so overwhelmed by simple things, like for example, I teach 2 sisters one hour a week at their home. Last week, we were playing a game and the youngest was peeking when she shouldn't have been. I told her not to in what I thought was a mock angry voice. I was speaking Japanese which I am not very good at! It must have come out wrong and she started sobbing. HEr dad came in an I apologized so much. He laughed and said it was okay- took her out, and she came back in to continue with the lesson after about 10 mins. Now I have been thinking about this all week with a real self-loathing. I'm dreading the class again tonight, to face the sisters and have them think I'm a nasty person. Its a really overwhelming feeling of no control and that I'm a completely crap, flawed person who can't even handle the tiny bit of work that she does do. (I'm way under-employed for my qualifications)

But then I think if we step back for a bit and put these things into perspective, then maybe it can help? Like think, hang on, its just a class- whats the worst that can happen? Its easier said than done because our childhood emotions are so overwhelming that we feel that we are shit. But thats not true. I think its the same when we are with our kids. I think we'll have to practice some method of being able to look at the situation from the outside, thinking, 'One year from now, this problem will seem so insignificant'

Pages, the snowstorm example is exactly like my parents. I think thats why I feel incredibly over-responsible for things that aren't my fault (like if people aren't enjoying themselves at a party or something), because I was made to feel that things were my fault, when looking back they couldn't have been. I think our parents sometimes realised how stupied they were and preferred to project that onto their child than admit it. Its a horrible feeling of shame, isn'T it. Sometimes I do it with DD, and I have to watch it. For example, I'll tell her not to stand on her high chair. Then she'll keep doing it and inevitable fall and I immediately think 'Well, I told you not to!', but the natural reaction should be 'Oh, are you okay?! I'm getting better though.

I've done other things too, like scream at her face when she was about 4 months old because she just kept crying and I could't get ready to leave teh house. So many other things...

Pages, I got shouted at, told off in front of sister and friend of my mother because I had crossed the road without her. She 'cared' apparently. Actually humiliated me, made me feel stupid (I had been really careful), and felt like it was all my fault. When actually she should have been watching me all the time. The fact I was also at the other side of the road for a good couple of minutes moving foot to foot, excitedly waiting for her to notice how clever I had been... bit like the time her and my sister left me behind in Tesco's and not noticed.

I still do things with my dd that my mother did with me...i get the self loathing and I'm a terrible mother thoughts and hating myself for ever hurting her. Just been thro about 2 months of cocking things up, felt like forever. But it was just 2 months, not our entire relationship and unlike my mum I change, I make it work, I read my dd's reactions and try something different...okay been trying for 2 months but it seems to be coming together again now.

So, how are you today Danae? Did you sleep or did you wear a hair shirt all night? something I've been wearing at night for last couple of weeks

It is just one moment in your relationship with your dd, you put it right and hugged her. You clearly feel guilt at what you did, my therapist says it should be an 'appropriate' amount of guilt. Sounds like you had a bit more than that. Use this as a learning tool. Think back, how did you feel? Tired? Angry? Frustrated? Stressed? At what point in future do you think you need to just say to dd 'can you just wait there? Mummy needs to go to toilet' or whatever so you can have a silent scream (as I do occastionally...okay daily!!) use the minute to understand what your angry at and that your dd is not to blame. Then focus on her and her needs for 10/20 mins...then try to distract her with a toy or two so you can get a minute more to yourself to put thoughts in place.

Anyway, best go, I'm going to get round to replying to all the posts this aft or tomorrow...need quite a bit of tiem, its gone all busy!

xxx