My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry

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I posted on here a while back asking the question "Would you cut your mother out of your life" because of a really hurtful thing she did to me which she refuses to apologise for. I think my position has always been that it would be the last resort - I think my question should really have read "would you risk your mother cutting you out of HER life?". Well I risked it and she has...

Sorry to go over old ground but she told me over a year ago that my SIL found it hard to be around my son who has special needs. I didn't confront my brother and SIL until recently because they are really unapproachable and part of me felt that I had to just live with it. It came out a few months ago in a bit of heated discussion with my brother about something else. I immediately apologised to my mum for the way I had delivered it to my brother but said I felt it did need to be addressed (I have to protect my son, he will pick up on people's feelings about him). My mum denied having said anything of the sort and she, my SIL and brother all called me a liar (SIL said some really nasty things) and said I had invented the whole conversation, and my mum got the rest of the family to gang up on me.

My mum has said very little to my face but has badmouthed me and manipulated behind the scenes including trying to get the one (older)brother who has stood by me against me against me, accusing me of splitting up the family, etc.

Me and my older brother sent her an email telling her that we don't like the way the family operates, the scapegoating, backstabbing, and manipulating that goes on. We also told her that we wanted her to acknolwedge how bad our childhood was (my stepdad was physically and emotionally abusive to us both for several years, my mum left us home alone when we were really small, etc). We told my mum that this has really affected our lives (Neither me or b have much inner confidence and I still have nightmares about the past. I am having counselling now).

My mum said nothing to me and b but showed my younger brother and sister the letter (even though we asked her not to and to talk to us about it instead)and my sister had a go at me, said my mum was really upset and had told her what had "really happened" and that we had made it all up, it wasn't that bad. I sent an email asking to be treated with more respect or be left alone. I heard nothing from any of them till now.

My mum recently started texting and contacting my older b, we are both certain she was doing her usual "divide and rule" bit, trying to get him on side so I am the one left out. He emailed her back a few days ago and said she must apologise to me for calling me a liar and take on board our concerns if she wants a relationship with either of us. I have to say, I never wanted to issue ultimatums, but could not live with the alternatives which would be to just not be myself or true to myself.

My mum has emailed him back and said it is too late, we have both hurt her to much and it is beyond redemption and that we need to sort our own lives out and leave her to get on with hers. She called me false because I had a close relationship with her and never said anything like this before. I accept that I did used to just say "the past is the past" and because I have always been too petrified of losing her to ever cross her, so have accepted blame, guilt, comments behind my back about me and DH, and have carried on being loving and compliant towards her till now. We did have a "close" relationship but on the basis that I agreed with everything she said.

I feel okay, actually. I suppose I have been slowly accepting this may be the outcome for months. But I can't quite believe that rather than discuss things, debate things, get things out into the open and (what is hardest for her - apologise)so we can move on to a new and better level in our dealings with her she is willing instead to lose two of her children. Just feel sad about that really...

Hi Smithfield

Re the counselling, Attila's suggestion is a good one as you then know they are suitably qualified and monitored but I just got mine from yell.com, completely arbitrary, just googled local therapists. He was the first one i rang, and we clicked instantly.

Have had counselling in the past and not got on well with them, though, one was person centred counselling and that was dreadful for me (therapist just said nothing through entire session!). I would say just ring around a few and go with someone who sounds like they get you.

Glad the christening went well, I can't believe your mum calls you fatty. That is completely inappropriate and rude. Family boundaries - non-existent? Hence the enmeshment. You can't disconnect because you don't yet know how to but it can be learned, and counselling will help. Your mum sounds like Ally's - would she say it was just a joke if you got upset?

You do seem to seek your sister's approval, as if you need her to love you and I am not sure why? Not a criticism but why is it that important that she likes your hair or your bathroom?

Hi Smithfield

Re the counselling, Attila's suggestion is a good one as you then know they are suitably qualified and monitored but I just got mine from yell.com, completely arbitrary, just googled local therapists. He was the first one i rang, and we clicked instantly.

Have had counselling in the past and not got on well with them, though, one was person centred counselling and that was dreadful for me (therapist just said nothing through entire session!). I would say just ring around a few and go with someone who sounds like they get you.

Glad the christening went well, I can't believe your mum calls you fatty. That is completely inappropriate and rude. Family boundaries - non-existent? Hence the enmeshment. You can't disconnect because you don't yet know how to but it can be learned, and counselling will help. Your mum sounds like Ally's - would she say it was just a joke if you got upset?

You do seem to seek your sister's approval, as if you need her to love you and I am not sure why? Not a criticism but why is it that important that she likes your hair or your bathroom?

Hi Pages- I think I will start to ring around- I mentioned I had some counselling a while back and sounds a bit like stuff you had in the past tbh, so put me off a bit.
BTW I have ordered the book Toxic Parents today on Amazon

Regarding my sister- I dont really know what thats about...its confusing me to. I think I was trying to explain how she interacts with me like my mum would iyswim??

Am still reading through the thread and it is really helping me; things like

Greensleeves-saying you had felt like you were camping out in your own life
Sakura- saying you had not achieved professionally whilst knowing you could have and were certainly qualified to do so
Ally- That you'd start things... then crash and burn
Sakura- again your mistrust of your mil

Sorry to go over old ground for you guys..but my goodness I relate to all of this. Im finding just reading through this is therapy.

Pages- Yes i guess there are similarities there with Ally's mum, my mum is incredibly critical, and overbearing. She often palms off her little digs and terms of endearment or that Im just being oversensitive. Whilst I was growing up though she was sometimes overtly cruel. I remeber brining her a book of horoscopes when I was young in tears, it had the negative side of my star-sign and said things like would become a down and out, self-indulgent...just really horrible stuff, and I said 'Is that me?' Why I would think it refferred to me at that age is anyones guess. And she said 'yes im afraid it is'.

Anyway will continue ploughing through thread as it is helping greatly.Think you were right early. How about publishing???

ps sorry for my dreadful sp- I am a total baby brain atm

Pages- just reading something you said last xmas and made me realise we too share a similarity in that our mothers (in my case father too) are controlling, but if you bulk against that control, they then reject you. Not only that but they encourage other family members to reject you also.
I was pondering on the sister approval thing and I think this is part of the reason. When I first got back and she and I were so close...for the first time ever I felt I had someone to collaborate with over what mum was like-feel that has been withdrawn again and Im not sure why.

ps sorry for hogging this thread

Hello everyone,
Here is a light story-I'm at the point where I can actually laugh at it.
I was away for holiday to mil for Thanksgiving. Everything went well because I am not emotionally invested in husband's family anymore. But. I find myself in circumstances that come out of the blueand it is like there is no way out. Except remain silentwhich I should have done--but being pg has made it more difficult to bite my tongue. Here is a very petty situation-just ridiculous. Mil works at a large retailer with mixed up schedule and was indeed very exhausted. But she makes a point to make food for her favorite child (my dh) to take back home (500 ++ mile road trip). When frozen, this works out. But this time she waited until the night before we left and made 2 large pans of ___ and there wasn't time to freeze it and we didn't have a cooler or any intention of spending precious travel time rounding one up. I mentioned to dh (after we left mil's house) simply as a point of a fact that it was going to spoil and we wouldn't be able to eat it. DH thought it best to drop it off at his sister's house (we had to pick up dd) and it would be appreciated because she still had a house full of people to feed. I suggested it ought to go into a trash dumpster, mil would never know. While acknowledging that his mom might be upset, DH thought it'd be a shame to waste
it so we dropped it off. Of course mil found out-dh has another very sweet sister who innocently said 'yum that sure was delicious'. Naturally it all hit the fan. Those 500++ miles are a blessing. We got a phone call from fil (who thought it was all funny, too). And of course it was my fault that we "dumped off" and "didn't want her food". But DH knows he has to be clear in setting the record straight, and let it be known it was his decision to drop it off. But I am sure that I will hear about it and I will simply say (over and over broken record style if necessary) "it was going to spoil".

So yes, I do still doubt myself, in whether or not I should speak...whether or not my assessment and solution are accurate or would seem like skewed thinking to others. I might have waited to the end of the trip to mention my opinion on spoiling-already spoiled, but then it would have been wasted.

Hello again
Pages and Sakura-thanks for your acknowledgment and support about my Middle Sister.

Smithfield-good luck, sincerely. It is hard to change. But when you get to the point where enough is enough and you just are not going to take it anymore...then change seems more of an option, more available, more of a positive action. And (my opinion) from what I've experienced and read-the mean ones will not change, so the change is within yourself. How much you care what they think, how much you respect them, even how much you love them...these are all things that changed in myself with regards to mil and I am now assessing and working on Middle Sister.

You are not alone. This is an invaluable thread-thanks again Pages.

A proverb that has always helped give me courage in not taking it anymore is:

Even a worm will turn.

In my proverb book the explanation is: 'Even the most humble will strike back if mistreated and abused beyond a certain point. Originally the proverb ran, "Tread on a worm's tail and it will turn." ...The proverb is found in varying forms: The worm will turn; Even a mouse will turn; It's a long worm that has no turning; The worm turned and bit the hand that fed it; The worm turned and ate the bird.'

If a lowly worm has courage to turn, then, yes, I can turn too.

I like the worm turning proverb, Toomany. I have often wondered why it was that I suddenly saw my family as they really were and decided I wouldn't take it any more. It was of course to do with my son, but it was more than that. I think it has something to do with having children of my own, and as Ally says, having them as a yardstick to measure how I believe children should be treated. I must have just been ready I think.

I think that re the spoiling of the food, your MIL would have seen something negative in what you did no matter what. This is how my mother is and how my family chose to respond to what I told them about my son - with negativity. A more generous reponse would have been "how thoughtful (which it was)and nice of Toomany to give the food to her SIL rather than wasting it" but your MIL has a mean streak like my mother, chooses to see the worst in people.

Smithfield you are not hogging the thread! That's what it's here for. I can understand the thing with your sister - she validated your feelings for a while and the family dynamics shifted so that you weren't the black sheep. Maybe your mother has (subtly) got to her and got her back into her camp. My point though is that you don't NEED any of them to know you are ok and loveable. I think Toxic Parents will really give you the validation you need.

Hi Toomanysb's-Thanks for that. I have just read your story regarding middle sister. I don't think it matters wether its a mum, dad, sister, brother, if they are having such a huge and negative impact on our life and you are lucky enough to have insight to see this, good for you should for seeking out a way of talking it through and recieving support from others experiencing the same.
Do you think you middle sister is taking over where your mother left off? Was your mum similar?

Im beginning to feel a bit like the worm that turned myself.

Pages, sakura and ally-I'm now 22 pages in to this thread, and my mind has shifted from 'no my circumstances aren't that bad, and no I couldn't cut them off, to 'yes' they damn well were that bad, and maybe this is the only way to regain control of my life.

It may seem daft but I dont think I ever fully made the link between how I have been reared and my depression. The ad's were great but in a way I think they disconnected me from the real me IYSWIM. I think up until now I have merely been distracting myself from the 'real' issues. The real issue and source of my depression being my dysfunctional family. Even when physically distanced from them they have continued to set up camp in my head.

I was the eldest and the one to rebel- I never knew why, i just felt compelled to get away. So I left home (the first time) at 18, Mum had said I couldnt go to uni unless I stayed at home. So in defiance I applied to nursing behind her back. Best solution for me it seemed as I could leave home (nurses quarters) but work. A year later I was back home as I'd collapsed several times having sufferred severe panic attacks.
I think part of my inner dialogue at this stage was so messed up by them that some part of me truly believed I couldnt physically function without them.
It became a circular thing- I'd try to step out into the big wide world, I'd fail, hence inner dialogue compounded.
One of you wrote on here about the little girl who went into the shop for the Ice-cream with her mum; she wants vanilla the mum says 'have chocolate', 'I'd like vanilla'...no you dont you want chocolate. That was me and still is. I have no sense of self, no self esteem, trapped in little girl mode looking back toward mummy and daddy and saying 'what is it I want again?'.

Still I am resilient and if nothing else stubborn. Last time I managed 6 whole years away! That was when I'd left for oz. Mum had typically refused to discuss my plans to go and treated me incredibly badly in the lead up to leaving. But I was having counselling by then so maybe that gave me the strangth to go through with it.
Maybe this time I will make the final break who knows.

I remember when my dh first met my family, we went out for a meal and after he said he was amazed how my parents treated my younger sis. She was flanked by them, didnt say two words all night and at then end they paid for her. She was 24! This was me...could have been me. Thank god I did rebel, albeit badly and somewhat unwittingly.

I am beginning to see the light and I think physical distance is not enough for me(although I never conciously knew this is what I was doing). I need to cut them out....at least for a length of time...I see that now.

Sakura- You poor thing- To have dealt with one toxic set of parents. Move overseas and find another duplicate set waiting for you!
I think this has happened to me somewhat. I thought I was breaking the mold marrying DH. We moved close to his family after moving back from overseas and truth be known I was drawn to the picture I had of them of this nurturing, loving family. Imagine my shock when 3 months in Bil and SIL refuse to speak to us for 6months. Why? because DH said he couldn't work for BIL anymore and went elsewhere. He went elsewhwere because he couldn't take being screamed at anymore or not getting paid, or being required to leave his family at 7 at night to be at bro's beck and call I think BIL is a replica of FIL. At this time we were living with PIL and when DH ried to stand up for himself and say NO, Im at least going to put my son to bed before going out sgain...he said 'Why? Why does it take two of you to put a child to bed?'

I feel guilt, immense guilt over this, as it was my neediness that brought us here in the first place. My insatiable need to find the unconditional love I never got from my parents.
We have distanced ourselves since then...and it has been working, but being pregnant has brought all that neediness back to the surface. Im exhausted and like another poster said earlier...you just want your mum....but that ain't gonna happen at least not in a nurturing healthy way!

So mold not really broken then. Guess If Im honest I am turning into the toxic one and hubby doing what h'e always done, playing second fiddle so as not to rock the boat. Just like he's always done with his dad and bro- with mum as the enabler.

I am a good mum to ds, despite my insecurities and one thing he has plenty of is love, he feels it, he hears it and hoepfully he knows it. He had his first (yes at 2.9 how lucky am I) public tantrum, kicking me, hitting me. It took all my inner strength not to snap, Like 'they' would of. After it passed I said 'you were naughty you did x y & z) I then said but I love wether you are naughty or good mummy always loves you.
That doesnt mean job done...how I interact with DH also has its place and Im determined to crack this. I dont want ds to see depressed mummy snarling at daddy, or pushing him away either.

Sakura- I also related to the arguing you witnessed between your mum and dad. The physical arguments my parents had, used to turn my stomach. Once it had gotten physical my mum seemed to step back out of the ring victoriously. She'd proceed (normally once dad had stormed out...saying I'm sick of the lot of you!) to sit and ring everyone. She'd start the coversation with a sigh and 'yes,he's hit me 'again''. I sound cold and hard I know...but I saw the constant goading (sp?) following him from room to room and then the ultimate satisfaction she seemed to get from a push or a shove or a slap. It was was like she became triumphant suddenly vindicated. She thrived on the drama.
As the eldest sakura- did you feel compelled to intervene as you got older or step in to sheild your younger siblings?

Anyway I've rambled enough-far too much, I apologise. But also I cannot tell you how much sharing your journies all of you on this thread has helped/ is going to help me with mine. I know its going to be a long and difficult one.
I wont have to worry for a little while as I know the pattern well. I wont be contacted by mother til the new year as she is going away, and as we didnt part on the best of terms she wont be calling before she goes.
Dad, beacuse I dared to challenge him wont be calling either. So giess I have breathing space til the new year and then I will think how i want to tackle this.

Thanks again guys

Hi Pages- just cross posted- Yes you've hit the nail on the head. I also have to acknowledge that my sis herself has issues with mum. When I got back she was treating her appallingly, and I mean APPALINGLY cos she had her where she wanted her. (financially dependant and living with her)

If I think about it she may not have been limiting her time with 'me'...but with mum (as mum was staying here).
I have been getting on better with mum, and Im cross with myself beacuse I've obviously been basking in the 'negative' attention I've been getting. Mum has lost a lot of power, through the divorce firstly then through younger sis moving in with dad and limiting her time with her, and then younger brother cutting her off altogether.

Think I've been too self absorbed and so not able to see things this way, and Im not too big to say that maybe when I get this way sis looks at me and sees my mother.

I also think there is some manipulation going on by dad. I encouraged sis to get some independance and when I left she had finally got a job. She not long after I left to come up here left the job to work for younger bro. She is defiantely still being controlled. I feel bad for her.

Hi
Smithfield-and all- here is some of my background:
My Mom had mental health challenges (I wasn't told much but I believe manic-depressive), and she received professional help as needed-my Dad took very good care of her. However, under the influence of meds (1970's style) (or alcohol) she simply wasn't available as a parent to me. She wasn't overtly abusive-just emotional neglect.

My father was a work-aholic and also deaf. Even though he had a hearing aid, simple, spontaneous conversation didn't happen very often. I was a good kid (could take 'no' for an answer at an early age), content in my own little bubble of life and thus didn't require/demand attention.

Therefore, I see myself as, nay-I am- a person who has simply been unguided. I've had to figure nearly everything out by myself (particularly socially) with all the attendant frustrations and humiliations which make up my playback reels.

Middle Sister has always, always, as far back as I can remember been a "MY way or the highway" type of person. Even in games as children-it had to be her rules or she didn't play...and often she didn't. She is still like that in spades. She majored in early childhood education in college and for the longest time treated everyone like they were 5 years old. It feels like that is coming back, too, somehow. I think her identity is wholly wrapped up in the notion of being SUPERIOR.

From the NPD site mentioned earlier in this thread, she rang nine out of nine bells (I read it out to Older Sis and she agreed on every point). I am working on getting away from thinking of her within the term 'matriarch' because that includes me (and my family) in who she is. She is narcissistic and is using us as doormats to validate her sense of superiority.

I think this distinction is a foundational building block for me to not be so emotionally invested in her anymore -or until she changes- ok- anymore. And to be strong to set the boundaries without feeling guilty about 'family duty'. That is her golden trump card for passing endless judgments.

I am currently reading Surviving a Borderline Parent (even though Mom was beyond borderline) to try to get some insight into myself, Middle Sister, and hopefully not be one myself. And will probably move on to Toxic Parents next.

Thanks for being there.
Pages-you are right about mil viewing me with only negative tinted glasses. Good metaphor, thanks.

smithfield, so many of the points you have made have resonated with me. FIrstly, the link between the way you were raised and your depression. I just assumed that people got depressed- grey weather, a Sunday morning hangover- that was the way life was. Not being able to get out of bed was a normal thing for me at the weekend. I also had horrendous panick attacks. I never sought treatment because as I say, I assumed that was life. Now touch wood, but since my confronation with my mother, I have in a sense 'claimed' my adult status, and honest to God, the depression has gone away. I have low-ish days, but then again I am a SAHM with a toddler, and my life is very groundhog day so its to be expected. But I really feel like I'm holding it together well, and I really believe this is because I have cut my mother out of my life.

The other thing you said was the way you were drawn into the nurturing picture in your head of your in-laws. THat is exactly what I did, so in a sense, I'm partly to blame for how it turned out. I mean, my MIL could never have fulfilled my expectations- because of course, I was looking for my mother in her. As you say, every woman, "needs her mum", Those are the truest words ever spoken. But Its just so sad if a mum spends her energy trying to destroy her daughter and make her miserable, and then the time comes when you finally realise that "your mum" is a figment of your imagination. None of this takes away what my MIL has done- she's a bully through and through and she pounced on my vulnerabilities because I wore them on my sleeve. NOw we've come to an understanding for the sake of my husband. WE had a meal last week for FIL's 70th, and it went absolutely fine because a) she knows she can only push me to a certain point and b) I have no emotional investment in her anymore so it was a very shallow exchange, but not hurtful at all because of that.

There were other things in your thread that I can relate to.

toomany, Your sister does sound narcisstic, as sad as that is. I'd like to say something like "oh, it was her upbringing- she can't be held responsible, so you should love her anyway" but the fact is that narcissists suck you dry until theres nothing left of you to give. I think you're right that to not emotionally invest in her is a good option. I'm doing that with my MIL and its working well, but perhaps it'll be a lot harder with a sister, and more painful. But if you can manage it, that would probably work. I couldn't do that with my mum for sure- she knows all of my buttons.

'looking at your own child and thinking "how could anyone hurt something so beautiful" because children just look like little angel gifts, and then thinking "well I must be a piece of * then if my parents didn' think the same"'

I am sorry for jumping in here but I just had to day that this makes me feel so I struggle with my feelings re my mother and I always come back to this in my head... 'I must have been and must be so,so awful that she hated me so much growing up'

I have been reading this thread on and off,I keep returning to it like a guilty pleasure because while it is a relief to read that other people have experienced worse I hate the fact that it brings it all up again in my head. I try every day to outrun my past,sometimes it catches up with me and I dream of all the ways in which I could punish myself for being so awful but most days I look at my children and think,I am so lucky to have them in my life.

Sorry again for jumping in,I think you are all such wise,sensible women and I admire the way you are able to deal with your experiences.

Flicky, I am so sorry that this thread has dragged up unhappy feelings for you. I feel so sad for you that you were treated so badly as a child that you are left with these residual feelings of worthlessness. I don't know if you have or feel you could try counselling but you need somehow to mentally make the logical (rather than emotional) connection between what happened to you and how you feel about yourself.

All children are born beautiful - you too were and are an "angel gift". You are "a child of the universe as much as the trees and the stars, you have a right to be here" (Desiderata) and it is your mother's own inadequacies and failings that led you to feel the way you often do about yourself.

As a child it was safer for you to believe it was something in you that made you unloveable. It's what children do to protect themselves because the alternatives -that our parents are not good, kind or loving enough parents - are too horrendous to contemplate. As children we are unable to survive without them, we need them to take care of us or we will die. It really is a matter of life or death. So if there is any failing it has to be in us.

As an adult you no longer need your parents (or their negative projections) to survive. The real challenge now is to be able to reverse this thinking and replace it with logic. For instance, I grew up feeling that I was ugly and clumsy because that's how my stepdad made me feel. And as my real dad had also gone away and had wanted alcohol more than he wanted me it must have been true.

As I got older I desparaetly craved love from men to prove my worth and I felt great when I had a man in my life, loving me, and and ugly and attractive when they abandoned me for someone else, or I couldn't meet anyone. Of course no man could ever stave off those feelings for ever, no matter how much he loved me. The insecurity would slowly creep back in after a while, and in the end I had to address it.

I would say that I am largely over those feelings now but occasionally they creep back up when I am tired or have said or done something I feel is stupid - I am very susceptible to feeling huge amounts of shame.

So, something I like to do when I start to feel that way again is to think about how many people through my life, including friends I have now, seem to like me, have found me charming, attractive, etc, and nice things they have said about me. It's like stacking up evidence in support of me. Act like your own advocate, defend yourself against that voice in your head, and prove it's not true. I don't know much about you, Flicky, but I bet you are a lovely mum for a start and your dc are lucky to have you.

We once had a team building exercise at work whereby the faciliatator started by asking us all to go round the room saying something positive about each person. It was really lovely to give and to hear appreciative things about others and myself. I couldn't believe some of the things that were said about me, how lovely thet were and what a great picture of me they painted!! I bet you have no idea how much you are appreciated by others. Could you try asking people who know you and love you what it is they like about you, and write it down and keep it as evidence?

Like you, Flicky, I have always been very easily persuaded that I am horrible, worthless, and unloveable, and that is why it is important to avoid people who do not support who you really are (ie a beautiful person). Of course we have faults because we are human, but these faults and failings are not the essence of us, they are just small faults and failings, like everyone elses. Our parents (who we have discovered often have personality disorders) magnify their own faults and failings and project them onto us and that is the fundamental reason why many of us on this thread have chosen to cut out our toxic parents. They will always reinforce the negative image of ourselves that they projected onto us as children and unless we are strong enough within ourselves to observe their behaviour in a detached way without absorbing it (which because of the way we were raised is a mammoth task and too much for most of us) we have to keep away, because their toxicity will cause us untold harm.

I am certain that there are spiritual and other advantages personality-wise for us in having been through what we have. I don't think much of the book I mentioned earlier on the thread by Muller so wouldn't recommend that really, but I read somewhere that "pain makes you interesting" and I really believe that to be true.

PAges, your post made so much sense-that children internalise the shame because its easier than thinking our parents must be flawed, which is too horrible to contemplate. In the continuum concept, Liedlof believes that babies are born with a certain set of expectations, and one of these is that they will be nurtured lovingly by their mother. When this doesn't happen in some cases, the child becomes neurotic/disordered because they have to believe the parent is on their side. It is the natural law of the continuum concept. When nature gets skewed, the organism i.e.the child must survive. If they allowed the horror of reality to sink in, they would undoubtedly commit suicide, or show their anger to their abusers, thereby encouraging more abuse.
I think I may have had traits of borderline, but I think that now I have insight into everything, they have almost dissappeared. What I mean is, say my mother has just given me a beating and raged at me, but I have to leave for school in 20 minutes, and I need to ask her for the bus fare (a true case), what should I do? a) rage back, get angry or ignore her, so I can't go to school and live a semblance of a normal life or b) act as if nothing has happened, suck up to her, and get the bus fare so I can go to school.
I think my childhood definitely taught me detachment.

I think its true that pain makes people interesting. They say that all art is born of pain. Others disagree because they think that art isn't based on 'sickness', but I think if you look at the lives of artists, its so true. I think pain causes you to reflect, to find coping mechanisms. Roald Dahl had some serious issues- not a nice family man, so I hear because he hadn't dealt with his pain. Van GOgh, Virginia Woolf Sylvia Plath, Pushkin- the list is endless of people who had messed up lives and committed suicide because of the pain they'd had to bear in their lives.

Hi all, welcome flicky, please post more, I understand the guilty pleasure! Its like picking a scab...

Smithfield, glad you are realising the enormity of your abuse, not just brushing it under the carpet again. It is hard to face it head on. But the easier path isn't always the long term best path to take...if that makes sense. I'm struggling with feeling grief at the moment, and I'm putting it off...and I know I have to face it sometime...just got to find the guts to face it head on. I'll get there, I will! If we just keep reading this thread and supporting and listening to each other and get more help to deal with it from councelling we will move on. After all, isn't that what life is all about? Learning from our past and our mistakes. Some people never learn lifes lessons. I also understand your getting away then like an elastic band flicking back to them! Ditto. I never dare cut them off out of a relationship as I didn't feel strong enough, but always fantasised one day of running away to france and just leaving a note. Always feared I would need them again, and my mother always gave out that line 'bloods thicker than water' etc! So felt you would forever be dependant upon them. But I'm an adult and I can survive without them. Your very strong emotionally to do this, to realise what has been going on, we all are, its not easy to face the truth head on. Just don't give up!

Okay...moving on now...the wine is making me all over emotional!

Toomanystuffedbears, that was not a good childhood. Intentional or unintentional that was emotional neglect, which is part of the definition of emotional abuse. Its so sad you had no one there for you as a child, no emotionally available mum no emotionally available dad, just alone. How about unloved as well as unguided? I got told by my mum regually that she loved me, didn't make it true tho, I've never felt loved by my mum dad or sister. Its not words that count, its actions. Did your mum and dad invest time in disciplining your sister? She sounds like my sister, they felt that she was just impossible to discipline so just didn't make an effort. She ticks 8 out of 9 boxes! For information...if a child does not get taught at age 4/5 that the world does not revolve around them, they continue to believe it does. So perhaps our sisters never learned from our parents due to lack of interest/care? Diverging from point again, with my own dd I have been having issues lately...we just have not been getting on, seeing eye to eye, she's just 19 mth old. I have been distracted (by my mothers recent behaviour ironically) so I have not been disciplining her. So spoke to therapist and dh and started it up again. One touch by her on a forbidden object and I said no and was there like a flash to reinforce what I said. Within 24 hours our relationship was nearly back to normal! So I equate fair discipline as love. If you care you watch what they do and stop them. And they know you are watching over them, therefore care what they are doing. Rambling now (wine is stronger than I thought...). So your sister did not have that? How about your older sister? How was she affected?

Pages, thats a good thought, magnifying their faults and failings onto us and doing it each time they see us...thanks for that...I'm struggling with my breaking contact at the moment (thanks to memorial!!). I'm just hanging on in there and waiting for my adult side to re-emerge...best write a letter (not to post!).

Sakura, I understood it is not just artists but comedians too and most actors/actresses in the spotlight...they need to be needed, or express their hurt through art. Got to say 'pain makes you interesting' made me laugh...bit cynically got to say!!

anyway, got to go, teas all ready...and this wine is FAR too strong...its the cooperative one...white sevinegone blanc or whatever

ally xxxxxxxx

I can relate to what you said Sakura, I too had borderline traits at one time, very much needed a drama in my life and was quite demanding and dependent in my relationships. I am very different these days.

I also "sucked up" to my mother. For me it was quite simply that I didn't dare ever reject her - she would just reject me even more, with knobs on, and I could never bear any amount of distance between us. I was aware that I hated my stepdad but I never ever had any negative feelings toward my mother. Her failure to protect me, coldness and lack of love and physical affection were all my fault for being unloveable when I was growing up, no question about it, and I just tried harder to make her love me, mostly by being clever, achieving at school and making her proud of me. Or just trying to be good, quiet, stay out of the way.

Ally, glad the wine is so cooperative! Your mother has given you a very strong "you need us" message, hasn't she? I think the key is allowing yourself to grieve, as you say.

Yes, I think we coped very similarly Pages- always doing well at school. I did rebel in my teenage years (turned to drink!), and she just watched back and let me do it. I think because if I showed these signs of neediness and vulnerability, she knew I'D need her. The thing that caused her to really hate me was when I met and married a man who would really look after me properly.

Yes ally, Billy Connelly survived child abuse, Angelina Jolie has cut her father out of her life - he's not nice- I saw a short documentary of her rise to fame. ANyway, her father is a very powerful man an he gave an interview all upset saying he hadn't seen his grandchild and he would always be there waiting for her if she ever wanted to get back in touch with him. I nearly puked. The interviewer was totally buying his crap. If he really was a sensitive father, as he was making himself out to be, would he be airing dirty laundry in public or doing his very best to paint a black picture of his daughter, so he looked like the innocent one.
Angelina Jolie said in response to her father's interview that she thinks a child's loving relationship with their father is a wonderful, beautiful think if you have that, but says that its something that she's accepted that she hasn't got.

We do have a lot of similarities in the way we dealt with our situation, Sakura - I too discovered alcohol and how getting blitzed could stop me feeling the pain. I remember you saying you too used sex as a painkiller.

My mother also sat back and watched. With her, it was because she liked to think of herself as permissive. She wanted me as an adult and not a child, it was all part of her moving out of "parent" and into my "best friend" slot.

Yes, thats a scary dynamic the way she wanted to be your best friend. I was reading about the "parental Child" and I think it applies to us in these cases. It doesn't actually mean the child caring for the adult as in doing the dishes for them (but it could)- it means the child emotionally cares for the adult and not the other way round, as it should be.

This is what I felt horror from when I was getting married- that I had been her rock, her emotional crutch throughout my childhood and without having a crutch of my own, and this was how she was repaying me!!

The idea of splitting, that you mentioned is really scary stuff-the way we acted out their anger for them. The brain is so complex

Does anyone feel more fragile now that Christmas is looming? I definitely feel that this is a time when my mother tries to deny my adult status more than usual, like Ally's mother bringing the toys to her door. She might feel around this time that its her "right" to get in touch with her child (because even though I'm supposed to take care of her emotional needs, and she's allowed to ignore mine, she gets the right to be the "grown up" when it suits her

What a ramble of random thoughts...

Oh I am so getting the xmas bug...freaking out last week and this week...think its the fall out from the 'memorial'. I'm reverting to child again. Constantly having a fast heart beat from stress, feeling shaky, a sick feeling, a constant nameless 'dread' like I've done something really bad and evil to my mother and that I'm going to be punished for it.

But 50% of the relationship is her responsibility and she has failed to take her part in all that she did to me as a child and all she has done to me as an adult. So has my dad. No matter what she is going through emotionally. There is nothing I can do about that, she choses to feel as she does, just as she chose to act as a bully all those years ago. I'm not going to get sucked in again by her emotional blackmail. She is just repeating her past pattern. I back off from something extremely hurtful she has done. She cries like a small child. I go back. She waits a bit (week or so) and then carries on as the impatient, snappy, irritable, angry, verbally agressive, no interest in my feelings or life 'mother' that she always has been. Her good moods snap into bad moods. Her happiness is only ever skin deep. She would do her usual parasitic act on me as does my dad of trying to live through me, not allowing a healthy separation and letting me set healthy boundries of what I consider appropriate behaviour in my parents.

There. Now going to snap out of my fear! Already feeling a bit better. And to be more in control. What do you guys reckon? Any post (lets hope its just post!) from my mother, instead of being tempted to read it (like Flicky said, guilty pleasures, I want to know she 'cares') I will bin it? Put in loft, but if I do that I will end up reading it. What if it has important information in? But why put important information in a card that may not be read?...

Going to make a cup of tea now and try to settle to something nice. Like some cake. And a book then when I'm calmer some yoga. She can't hurt me anymore if I chose to react differently to her 'ploys'.

Anyone any other coping strategies for xmas?

Hi ally-

No I'm afraid I cant offer any coping strategies. All new to me and will be first xmas with no contact. So not sure what to expect.
Been feeling a lot of anger, and even threw a wobbler at the weekend but at least I know (or at least Im aware) who I'm angry at now. No, not the laundry bucket that fell out of the cupboard, (and got launched accross the room , or my husband...or myself....well you know who.

I too get the odd panicky feeling, when Im least expecting it and having some really odd dreams as well.

Currently I'm trying to cope by reading avidly at the moment. having got through Toxic Parents , I'm now reading 'When you and your mother cant be friends', wondered if any of you had read this and what your thoughts were?
I have to say Im really relating to this book. I've also got my first appt with therapist this week, so we will see how that goes.

Overall I think the strategies I use to cope are fairly negative ones, eating (a lot), drinking (although not the latter atm whilst pg, just in case you were all . Maybe I should take up some yoga or swimming instead. I definately need another valve for that anger.

Did you guys find the anger came first? Ally do you know why you are finding the next step difficult? Are you afraid to let it out? Or are you being thrown out again by fact xmas is approaching and you may have to face some contact?

Hi all, yup Christmas is getting to me too. We've already had an advent calendar for ds which I gave away (don't worry, ds has one as we make a special trip to the shops so he can choose one he really likes), and I'm waiting for the card and present to arrive for him (there won't be anything for us I hope). I think last Christmas was easier for me. I'd only just broken away from my mother and I was still pretty elated and just relieved to be having a peaceful Christmas without all the criticism and friction and discomfort. This year is much more complicated. In the last month, since (briefly) seeing a therapist I've finally started to accept some unpleasant memories of my father's behaviour towards me as a child (memories which I've known were there since early childhood but have spent my whole life trying to ignore/deny). And my mother is expecting me to meet her for coffee before Christmas, which there's no way I can do as now I'm dealing with my problems with her and the realisation/acceptance that my father is an evil person. On the one hand I feel quite elated as I've accepted that my fear of him has basis in very specific incidents and now that I don't doubt myself anymore I feel stronger than I have done for years. On the other hand the realisation that (sorry, nasty stuff coming up now) my father molested me a number of times when I was very young, aggressively exhibited himself to me, and since stopping this in my teens has continued to leer at me, makes me feel sick, ashamed, and although I manage to keep a lid on it a lot of the time and read about and work on all the emotions it's bringing up when ds is at school so he doesn't see me upset, sometimes this all just hits me and I can't believe it's been bottled up for so long. But I can see the effect it's had on me in terms of my self-esteem, and problems with forming healthy relationships and suffering from depression and anger. I know I can work my way through this (reading a book by Beverley Engel at the moment which is really helping), and I already feel like a happier and more confident person just for acknowledging what happened, and I know I'm closer now to being able to finally cut certainly my father and most probably my mother permanently out of my life, but it leaves me with so many dilemmas, not least what to do about the fact that my sil is about to give birth and the scan shows the baby is a girl. I want to tell them never to leave her alone with my father because from what I've read so far people like him never change. But I know if I ever raise this issue with my brother or sister they will accuse me of lying (as I'm already the "bad" child who has deserted our supposedly perfect family). They'll see it as me trying to make trouble when in fact all that has happened is that my break from my parents has allowed me to acknowledge what happened to me as I'm no longer a part of that family unit and my brain doesn't need to protect me from memories which would have made it impossible to remain part of my birth family. Does any of this make any sense? The abuse I suffered was much less than many people do and sometimes I think perhaps I'm making a big deal out of nothing, and then I realise that's just what both my parents taught me to think.

So sorry, this is a bit off topic I guess, and is terribly rambling, but I hope you don't mind me getting it off my chest here. I had two sessions with the therapist I chose and at the first one I told her about the memories of my father that were surfacing so she had details of how he'd behaved towards me and yet at the second session she told me that we needed to work towards me being in a position where myself, DH and DS could spend time with my parents!!! After arguing about this with her for the last 10 minutes of my session I decided I wouldn't see her again as we definitely weren't "on the same page". I also think perhaps she was the wrong type of therapist for me - I was expecting to do, I guess, about 60-70% of the talking, but she did that much and I listened, and often it was about her other clients and their situations, which weren't directly relevant to mine. Perhaps she was trying to convince me of her credentials, I don't know. But one of the client stories she told me contained so much detail that, had I lived in the same village as her, I would probably have been able to identify the family she was talking about, which shocked me a bit. I also sort of expected that she would get a full "history" from me so she had a complete picture before starting to deal with specific issues, but she jumped straight into the second session talking about my relationship with my ds and the fact that he's a sensitive child which she'd obviously decided was a big issue - it wasn't what I went to talk to her about and yet I couldn't get her to talk about the problems with my parents. I guess it's a bit hit and miss and I have to accept it may take another try or two to find the right person for me to talk to. I've told dh about what I've remembered but haven't raised it again because I don't want this to be too prominent in our relationship. My father has polluted too much of my life already.

Thanks for reading. It's really helped to write all this down. And sorry I'm completely useless at tips for dealing with Christmas. I guess we just all keep coming on here and keeping each other going.

Hi Smithfield, just wanted to say I read "When you and your mother can't be friends" and found the first part of it particularly helpful. I read it about six months ago now and can't remember why but it felt like it ran out of steam a bit towards the end. It was a good addition to Toxic Parents, though, and I'm glad I read it.

bearsmom- Just read your post and wanted to send you a ((((hug))))- have to pick up ds, but i will be back later.
You are one brave lady facing something as huge as this from your childhood. This takes a massive amount of courage.
Has this recent remebrance of what actually happened with yor further thrown further significance on your relationship with your mum?
Sorry not sure what else to say and don't want to say the wrong thing in a hurry. I will sign off here but will be back.