My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry

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I posted on here a while back asking the question "Would you cut your mother out of your life" because of a really hurtful thing she did to me which she refuses to apologise for. I think my position has always been that it would be the last resort - I think my question should really have read "would you risk your mother cutting you out of HER life?". Well I risked it and she has...

Sorry to go over old ground but she told me over a year ago that my SIL found it hard to be around my son who has special needs. I didn't confront my brother and SIL until recently because they are really unapproachable and part of me felt that I had to just live with it. It came out a few months ago in a bit of heated discussion with my brother about something else. I immediately apologised to my mum for the way I had delivered it to my brother but said I felt it did need to be addressed (I have to protect my son, he will pick up on people's feelings about him). My mum denied having said anything of the sort and she, my SIL and brother all called me a liar (SIL said some really nasty things) and said I had invented the whole conversation, and my mum got the rest of the family to gang up on me.

My mum has said very little to my face but has badmouthed me and manipulated behind the scenes including trying to get the one (older)brother who has stood by me against me against me, accusing me of splitting up the family, etc.

Me and my older brother sent her an email telling her that we don't like the way the family operates, the scapegoating, backstabbing, and manipulating that goes on. We also told her that we wanted her to acknolwedge how bad our childhood was (my stepdad was physically and emotionally abusive to us both for several years, my mum left us home alone when we were really small, etc). We told my mum that this has really affected our lives (Neither me or b have much inner confidence and I still have nightmares about the past. I am having counselling now).

My mum said nothing to me and b but showed my younger brother and sister the letter (even though we asked her not to and to talk to us about it instead)and my sister had a go at me, said my mum was really upset and had told her what had "really happened" and that we had made it all up, it wasn't that bad. I sent an email asking to be treated with more respect or be left alone. I heard nothing from any of them till now.

My mum recently started texting and contacting my older b, we are both certain she was doing her usual "divide and rule" bit, trying to get him on side so I am the one left out. He emailed her back a few days ago and said she must apologise to me for calling me a liar and take on board our concerns if she wants a relationship with either of us. I have to say, I never wanted to issue ultimatums, but could not live with the alternatives which would be to just not be myself or true to myself.

My mum has emailed him back and said it is too late, we have both hurt her to much and it is beyond redemption and that we need to sort our own lives out and leave her to get on with hers. She called me false because I had a close relationship with her and never said anything like this before. I accept that I did used to just say "the past is the past" and because I have always been too petrified of losing her to ever cross her, so have accepted blame, guilt, comments behind my back about me and DH, and have carried on being loving and compliant towards her till now. We did have a "close" relationship but on the basis that I agreed with everything she said.

I feel okay, actually. I suppose I have been slowly accepting this may be the outcome for months. But I can't quite believe that rather than discuss things, debate things, get things out into the open and (what is hardest for her - apologise)so we can move on to a new and better level in our dealings with her she is willing instead to lose two of her children. Just feel sad about that really...

Maybe I should have put next to the when I wrote it.

Sorry xxx

Pages, been hoping you would post.
I'm still thinking about what I said & still feeling

No, I havent heard of the Women who love too much, Pages, but it sounds interesting. I also didnT know what "co-dependancy" was untill last week when I checked it out on google after seeing it on here. Im still not exactly sure what a co-dependant relationship means. DOes it mean that someone is incapable of separating their own feelings with the feelings of the other person i.e I need him to make me feel good about myself, and without that reinforcement, I canT feel good? Or is it more to do with constructing a relationship where you are totally dependant on the other person? I felt that me and my ex were fused, as though we were the same person. My feelings were his feelings and visa versa. He always seemed to know what I was thinking. WIth DH, I feel that we are two separate and distince people. (SOmetimes I get annoyed that he doesnt know what Im thinking all the time, like my ex seemed to, but he tells me `How can I guess what you are thinking? JUst tell me!, and his argument seems to make sense)

I also know where youre coming from about the slavething, Pages. I always felt like the victim with my ex, and he did have a lot of pretty bad points. But maybe it was me who was the abuser, because I wanted him to love me NO MATTER WHAT. I wanted him to sayI love you regardless of your faults I felt it was a real deep and true love (and to this day I often miss him). I wonder how it could have been if wed have gone to relate or if Id have sorted myself out sooner because I miss his good points terribly. But I may never have got out of the trap and may have even subjected my own kids to a repeat of my childhood (!) So I think everything happens for a reason. DH would NEVER put up with that kind of crap from me. Sometimes a little voice inside says "Well, he cant love you then", but then I think, no he just expects me to behave like a normal, rational human being and doesn`T see that I need to be "rescued" or "saved".

OH, and Musiclover, I know what you mean about Pages. Pages, the way you write and the things you say mean that you come accross as being very with it and together as a person. I imagine you being a lawyer or some other kind of proffessional person. It just sounds funny to hear you confess that you used to drink too much and all that. Im not shocked one little bit because IM sure my behaviour was worse than yours, regarding the anger, sex=love problem and all the rest.

Charlieq; Just been glancing down the thread (my god its moved on!) Your mother has been in therpy for 15 to 20 years and she's worked on forgiving YOU!!!!! Not loving you... I'm gobsmacked. And she's still cold to you? I'm just so shocked. I have a book I'm reading and recommend, v famous 'A road less travelled' by Dr S Peck. It makes you realise just how hard therpy is, its from his perspective and experience as a psychoanylsist. Makes you realise how some people can do therpy but not enter fully into it, but reluctantly. Its given me a kick up the behind, I find it very hard to talk about my past with my therpist but this in turn is affecting my relationship with my husband and baby. Affecting as in I'm starting to repeat some of my mothers behaviour patterns. I'm talking the talk but not walking the walk (so 80's!). I can look brave and like an angel doing therpy, however if I don't enter more fully into it and more importantly take risks in my personal life to do things differently its all pretty pointless. I'm making loads of excuses for not changing my behaviour notably my husbands inability to take anything like critisim which he admits to. So I change nothing and say nothing to him and excuse it and make it all his fault. I should be taking on more responsibility for my own behaviour and keep trying with him. He is not my mother and he has shown he can change and listen. I need to persevere more. I don't want my dd growing up and thinking the way to deal with problems is to just sit on it until it 'goes away'. However the book isn't all that good for breaking off family ties...he did contradict himself, love everyone, but you can only love so many people totally and to love someone you can't 'extend' yourself to is doing them a grave misservice. I see me, my dd and my dh as far as I can and want to extend myself! Rambling now. Just a train of thoughts now!

Gotta go, chins up all. Don't let the witches get you down

Will come back to this later for a better read through but Musiclover, stop worrying, I am not offended, I was the one to LOL when I read your response. I guess that is the whole point about my mother's control over me being so complete that I was my compliant self 90% of the time - just had to get steaming drunk to let rip and have a good tantrum!!

Now I am feeling bad that you have been feeling bad . What are we like, eh?

Sakura, there are so many similar things in our pasts. I stil dream about my ex sometimes, the relationship was a very significant one for me, we too were very fused, and I was absolutely crazy about him in the beginning but it was me in the end who got restless. But it still took a long time to get over him, even though I felt I had to move on, if that makes any sense.

I think it is precisely because of the fact that it was a symbiotic relationship and me and DH are much more "separate", but this relationship with DH is the more healthy one. Also, me and DH have the same common goals and are spiritually more suited.

Yes, co-dependency is very much everything you describe, that fusing, merging of personalities, in some ways "two hearts beating as one" the way all the romantic poets, etc say it should be. And I should have thought given our histories most of us on this thread have or had a tendency towards it. I will dig out the co-dependancy checklist later, but you sound like you have found your "anti-script" Sakura, so you have obviously changed enough to have gone for a more healthy relationship this time, even if a bit of you misses the "passion". I would strongly recommend "Women who love to much", it really did change everything for me.

Although I still do get drunk and shout sometimes! But I don't take drugs, sleep around or get into fights anymore... (Yes I do have a professional job, btw, don't want to give too much away here in case anyone in RL identifies me) And, I think I am quite enjoying you all being shocked!

Ok, here's the co-dependency checklist from "Toxic Parents" and I think if you tick more than 3 you may be in a co-dependent relationship:

1. Solving his problems or relieving his pain is the most important thing in my life -no matter what the emotional cost to me
2. My good feelings depend on approval from him
3. I protect him from the consequences of his behaviour, I lie and cover up for him and never let others say anything bad about him
4. I try very hard to get him to do things my way
5. I don't pat any attention to how I feel or what I want. I only care how he feels and what he wants
6. I will do anything to avoid getting rejected by him
7. I will do anything to avoid making him angry at me
8. I experience much more passion in a relationship that is stormy and full of drama
9. I am a perfectionist and I blame myself for everything that goes wrong

10. I feel angry, unappreciated and used a lot of the time 11. I pretend that everything is fine when it isn't 12. The struggle to get him to love me dominates my life

Funny though, I read it and thought "No" to every question, but when I read it through again and substituted "him" for "her" I realised that every one of them apart from 8. applied to how I felt about my mother. I wouldn't have dared be stormy with her. Well, I did, and what happened next is the subject of this thread!!!

PS thanks Attila, I had a look last night, very interesting.

Oh, and another thing ( Sakura, how great that your DH DOESN'T want to rescue you. I have thought lots of times since I have been going through all this with my mother how easy it would be to let DH become my "rescuer", wrap me up in cotton wool and not have to face the world, but I was only saying to my counsellor today that although he does provide support and often says things like "It's you me and the dc from now on, and that's that," he isn't trying to replace my mother and try and "save" me and to a large extent I am talking to you guys about how I feel rather than him because this is all about me learning to stand on my own two feet and not be dependent on anyone else's approval, IYSWIM.

So what I am trying to say is it is precisely because your DH loves you that he doesn't need to "rescue" you and make you dependent on you. He sounds great!

Oh, and I used to think that exactly about the reading of the mind thing, ie if you had to spell it out for him the magic was somehow lost. I now really enjoy my sepraetness with DH and the fact that he doesn't think the same as me about everything. Well, if he did, he would be me, wouldn't he?

Where are you all? I am starting to feel like Hamlet..

To be or not to be..... co-dependant. Interesting list, I'm possibly matching a few, best go through again thinking of 'her' like you. I certainly have spent 30 years putting her emotional needs first... so there is one. Best go, gotta get to Boots!

I'm here, but not for long really. Have to go to work today, & was working last night too.

Thanks Pages, glad you forgave me
I'm now feeling ok about it all, not now. What are we like eh?

Yes the co-dependance list def applied to how I felt about my mother.

Well, I saw my dad on thurs night! The first time in months! My Grandad (his dad) is in hospital, he had a fall last weekend & I just procedure, they are assessing him, as he si diabetic & not good on his feet at all. Myself & the rest of the family have been worried sick. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, my dad has just never 'give a shit' about anyone apart from himself. Himself & the booze comes first before anything & anyone.
But.. he was up at the hospital on thurs eve with his girlfriend. I said hiya to her & my grandad & just couldn't bring myself to speak to him, so I ignored his presence all the time I was there. I have to say it hurt me to do it, but on principle & for my grandad's sake I just couldn't speak.
His girlfriend asked about my kids(not him).
I dont even think he will understand why I chose not to speak to him & he made no attempt to ask either. Nor did I want to go into it if he did, as it was not the time or place.
Me & DH spoke about it last night & he suggested that I ring him & explain to him why I'm not & tell him how I feel without any argument. So when I feel up to it I may just do that.

Must dash though ladies, as I got to get ready fot work

Glad you ok about it all now Pages, you have put my mind at rest. Glad you have got the gumption inside you too, even if it did take you to be drunk to do it. Anymore shocking stories for us I'm sure I've got a few that would you too, but wont go into it now

Oh by the way, this is my new name for Valentines
Do you like it?

Might just keep it actually

Sounds like the name of a band...

Just had contact with my dad today too! Must be the day for it. Was expecting contact from mother and was ready for disguised handwriting again (sounds so corny, the rest of you have face to face contact and confrontations!) anyway got a letter, suspected strongly it was from them, partially opened it, saw the inland revenue headline and thought 'silly me!'...umm not silly, it was from them. £1500 gifted to my dd, they are the 'trustees of dd'. Trustees my arse. She will get tax relief on the amount, IF I sign the form. However it has been my constant answer to any contact from them by mail as silence. Now I feel blackmailed into contacting by this form, even if its a signature, they will have the 'inch' and take it a mile. So decided it, I will not reply. We are already saving up to send our dd to private school, which does not come cheaply and I have already started saving up money for her Child trust fund. If they wish to give her the money on her 18th birthday without tax relief that so be it. I'm torn tbh and I think they will know they are twisting me by doing this. They know I like to do the right thing and signing the form in one way would be doing what I would like to do for dd, being fair and putting her above my disagreement with my family. However if I DO sign form and make contact, that will allow them to follow it up. They have proved over and over again they could not take 'no' for an answer from me all my life and since I told them I wished no contact (to my dad and mum at first it was 'for the time being until I am ready) they still contacted me, with the ususal emotional blackmail, which does not go down well after a lifetime of it. Now they use my own dd against me. I suppose they think its a win/win situation. If I don't sign I'm in the wrong by not putting dd first. If I do they have finally got me to contact them, thereby a foot in the door.

Financially we are well off. And I am putting money aside (in her own acct) for dd that we cannot touch. So what is more important, a happy family or one who goes after a few extra quid to satisfy the out of contact gps that I'm not a bad person? Or put my dd above our family unit's happiness (and if we are happy she is, if I cry, so does she, how do you separate a baby and mother so completely?) so she can have a bit of extra money on 18th bday? She will be recieving it thro post from them anyway, no doubt so she will still get it, just slightly less.

Feel better now. Seeing it in another light as well now, its a new tact, financial blackmail/emotional blackmail. Well done them!

What on earth do I do when they will start sending her mail when she's old enough to know its for her? I don't want her reading their crap and getting twisted by them.

May do as dh suggested, a restraining order from the courts.

When dd is old enough and has the mental strength to cope with manipulative people like them she will be able to decide for herself to go see them (with dh). I just don't want them getting to her before then.

Why can't they go and screw up someone elses life? Already managed 2, now trying for a 3rd...

Well that was a conversation stopper! Doesn't really ask for comment, did wonder if I should have just thought it after I posted!

Saw a mate yesterday, she has made me have a think about the separation. I feel very uncomfortable with myself still over the decision to break all contact. Not backtracking entirely...thinking I would like to bring them to therpy individually so that I could see if they would stop defending themselves and making excuses and actually listen. But I'm going to be doing a lot of working through my anger first in therpy. At the moment I don't feel like I've tried to work through the problems. I do not feel that they will listen, but I want to try. I want to look my dd in the eye and said I DID try everything to make it work. (even tho at the mo I admit I don't want it too work!).

Still feel absolute revulsion towards my mother tho...wonder if that will ever go?

Sorry you havn't had a reply Ally.
Ive been working all weekend

What an awful situation for you to be in.

I'm not really an expert on a situation like this, I'm sure Pages will be more helpful here, she has great advise on this.
But..I would think that you're probably better to work through your problems first before tackling the situation with your parents. I'm sure this would be too much to cope with at one time. So first things first I'd say.
Carry on getting help for yourself & then think about what you want to do about your parents. The one big problem is though, would your parents go to therapy, if not, would this be another blow to your feelings. If they did go, & carried on being in denial, (which sounds imminent), your feelings would be far worse than they are now.

I have no idea if your feelings of revulsion will dissapear towards your mother, but they may eventually lesson. My have come & gone towards my own mother over the years. They feel worse when im feeling at my worse. If that makes sense.

Im sure once your DD is old enough to understand life a little more, then you can explain the situation to her. At the moment, I see it that she will not suffer from not having any contact with your parents. Easy for me to say this, but if you can put it to one side & just try & forget about the money they have given etc. Do not sign anything yet, as you have said this is blackmail to get into yours & DD's life. I think your DD is much better off without any contact/money from them & also like you have said you dont need it as you're financially ok.

Please try & not worry about what your DD will think about you for not accepting it,& not having grandperents in her life. I'm positive she will not hold it against you. You are a good mother, & as lonely as it is without your family in your life, you now have your DH & DD & your life is with them.

Good Luck, hope you choose to make the right the decision.

Sorry, Ally, did read and thought I'd have a little think on your situation before responding and see if anyone else had any good advice, and then my computer crashed!

I really am not sure on this one, I have to say, but I really do think that you have to do whatever feels right for you right now, it does seem like some form of emotional blackmail is going on and if they really love your DD they will make sure she is provided for whatever happens, so if you don't feel like sigining it don't.

I am afraid my home life has taken a complicated turn, nothing bad at all, but I may not have regular access to the internet for a couple of months so am not abandoning this thread but will have to check in when I can...

Love to you all and be strong

Message withdrawn

Oh dear Pages, hope everything is ok.

((hugs))

Hi Ally,
I think its really snidey what they have done with the "gift". They cannot accept that you want no contact, and they are waiting it out. THey want to pull the card out when your dd is older and say Look what we tried to do for you, but your mum wouldnt let us. I had this problem. THe same as you, my mum knows Im likely to do the right thing and keep the "gifts" that she sends directly to DD. But I had a long think and decided the throw them all away. I dont want them hanging around my flat, because they werenT given out of love, they were given as another attempt to control and manipulate. As if to say, "I donT need you, I can go directly to your DD". I decided that as long as I can look myself in the mirror and believe that I made the best decision I could at the time, then that is enough for me. If DD asks me about it, or criticises me for it in the future (shes only 5 months now), then Ill just explain that even if it looks like I was doing the wrong thing, I thought carefully about what I was doing, and thought that it was for the best at the time. Hope this helps you with what you decide to do. I personally wouldnt offer to take them to therapy. They have been snidey with this gift and you are going to reward them by resuming contact. Theyll think then that you donT ever mean what you say, and that a bit of "pushing" and they can get you where they want you again. I just realised I sound quite bitter by saying that, but you really can`T believe that these people are using the same moral code that you are. They are on their own planet, and would never extend the same kindness to you.

e: Thank you, no dd won't know difference but I feel pressured as she's 10 months, my first memories were from 2 years so I feel like I have to rush thro therpy to be sure I've done the right thing by both of us, so she could have memories of her grandparents from an early age, if that is what came of therpy. In the letter my mother wrote, she did suggest we went to 'relate', this was in the first paragraph, it was obvious someone had helped her write it. She sounded reasonable, unfortuately the 9 pages after it were just a long 'la la la I can't hear you'. From the letter, reading between the lines and what I got from my dad was I'm just a nasty spiteful, rude and ungrateful child. Not really a good starting point. They clearly see all the fault on my side, they materially gave me all they did not have so therefore how could I be unhappy as a child. Shame the love was missing otherwise I could have had a pretty idillic childhood.

Pages: That's not good, we need you! And I flatter us, you need us too! Hope all is okay. Still good advice tho.

Sakura: Yes, I could already hear what they would say to my dd if she decides to meet them. I don't completely trust them not to feed them 'we sent presents, and cheques and cards and postcards' etc. I will not say anything worse to my dd than 'They were not very good to me, however if you wish to contact them you could well have a good relationship with them.' See what you mean about the reward. That is the big risk. I'm having massive problems now convincing them that they will not get ANY feedback whatsoever from me or dh. But if I do ever go back to mother that will ruin my chances of ever getting them to leave us alone.

Oh and the presents, when in contact with mother I asked for one present only, knowing her addiction to charity shops and loving baby stuff. I broke contact, a year tomorrow (should have a party ;) so when my dad came round the first time I got 2 cards addressed to dd (funny, I didn't know that babies had the coordination let alone the strength to open cards...maybe mother knows different?) Then I got 2 big bags of awful charity shop stuff (none in my taste, she knows our tastes are not the same) loads of stuff I didn't want. Got a bag of presents, got a star named after dd (without our permission, but hey what's knew, they never ask for permission to do things) and then I started to get sporadic presents, then the postcards to dd (didn't know they could read at a few months old...) postcards to me and dh, presents for dh.....each time I was spitting feathers, ended up (while still spitting feathers) putting them in bin bags in loft with all cards and and letters, and my correspondence I had with mother. And there they will stay till I know I'm doing the right thing by dd, at the moment I'm not sure enough to chuck them, but I get mad when I think of them up there and the fact my mother and father have never had any respect for me, even as a child.

Such an unhealthy relationship, its as if they want to remain children to be looked after, at the same time they want me and my sister to remain dependant on them so we don't go away, but only dependant on them as far as it suits them. Ask for one thing too many and they start getting nasty.

They are on their own planet, they have acquaintences, no friends, they isolate themselves from society. They do have a different moral standards to me. If my dd asked me to leave her alone, I would do so. Because to continue in contact would be unempathtic, and thinking of my needs not hers.

Okay going to finish novel now, thank you all for listening.

xxxxhugsxxxxx

Everything fine guys, as usual don't want to give anything too much away about my RL in case I'm identified but it is nothing major, and all good stuff not bad, but means I may have limited access to internet for a few weeks. Will check in as and when I can, hope all works out okay for you Dior. x