My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry

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I posted on here a while back asking the question "Would you cut your mother out of your life" because of a really hurtful thing she did to me which she refuses to apologise for. I think my position has always been that it would be the last resort - I think my question should really have read "would you risk your mother cutting you out of HER life?". Well I risked it and she has...

Sorry to go over old ground but she told me over a year ago that my SIL found it hard to be around my son who has special needs. I didn't confront my brother and SIL until recently because they are really unapproachable and part of me felt that I had to just live with it. It came out a few months ago in a bit of heated discussion with my brother about something else. I immediately apologised to my mum for the way I had delivered it to my brother but said I felt it did need to be addressed (I have to protect my son, he will pick up on people's feelings about him). My mum denied having said anything of the sort and she, my SIL and brother all called me a liar (SIL said some really nasty things) and said I had invented the whole conversation, and my mum got the rest of the family to gang up on me.

My mum has said very little to my face but has badmouthed me and manipulated behind the scenes including trying to get the one (older)brother who has stood by me against me against me, accusing me of splitting up the family, etc.

Me and my older brother sent her an email telling her that we don't like the way the family operates, the scapegoating, backstabbing, and manipulating that goes on. We also told her that we wanted her to acknolwedge how bad our childhood was (my stepdad was physically and emotionally abusive to us both for several years, my mum left us home alone when we were really small, etc). We told my mum that this has really affected our lives (Neither me or b have much inner confidence and I still have nightmares about the past. I am having counselling now).

My mum said nothing to me and b but showed my younger brother and sister the letter (even though we asked her not to and to talk to us about it instead)and my sister had a go at me, said my mum was really upset and had told her what had "really happened" and that we had made it all up, it wasn't that bad. I sent an email asking to be treated with more respect or be left alone. I heard nothing from any of them till now.

My mum recently started texting and contacting my older b, we are both certain she was doing her usual "divide and rule" bit, trying to get him on side so I am the one left out. He emailed her back a few days ago and said she must apologise to me for calling me a liar and take on board our concerns if she wants a relationship with either of us. I have to say, I never wanted to issue ultimatums, but could not live with the alternatives which would be to just not be myself or true to myself.

My mum has emailed him back and said it is too late, we have both hurt her to much and it is beyond redemption and that we need to sort our own lives out and leave her to get on with hers. She called me false because I had a close relationship with her and never said anything like this before. I accept that I did used to just say "the past is the past" and because I have always been too petrified of losing her to ever cross her, so have accepted blame, guilt, comments behind my back about me and DH, and have carried on being loving and compliant towards her till now. We did have a "close" relationship but on the basis that I agreed with everything she said.

I feel okay, actually. I suppose I have been slowly accepting this may be the outcome for months. But I can't quite believe that rather than discuss things, debate things, get things out into the open and (what is hardest for her - apologise)so we can move on to a new and better level in our dealings with her she is willing instead to lose two of her children. Just feel sad about that really...

The difference is though, CharlieQ, that we are having a good look at ourselves and getting therapy (in whatever shape or form!) in order to excorcise our demons. My mother, like yours, still thinks that everything that happened to her was twice as bad with knobs on. She once told me that if she'd had half the love that I'd had she would have been happy. So if my dc get half of that again is that ok then? Of course it's bloody not. Like I said once before, the buck has to stop somewhere and I am determined that it stops here with me, so that my boys can have the rich and happy childhood (and lives) that they deserve. That we should have had.

Our mothers should take it up with their own parents/get therapy/do whatever they need to but we are their children - comparing their pain to ours is IMO highly inappropriate.

I have the same fantasy as you Ally (my mother crying for me instead of crying for herself) but I don't think it's ever going to happen. I honestly don't think she has the capacity to empathise with me because all her own hurt is still getting in the way. When I asked my counsellor how she could see me crying and in pain as a child and turn away, mock me or go cold on me, my counsellor said she saw you in 2D instead of 3D. He said imagine your DS1 and DS2 both being upset because they want the same toy and expecting DS1 to give it to DS2 and comfort him. Not gonna happen.

I think this is how narcissists become narcissists. They never got or learned how to get their needs met when young, so they are permanently stuck in the world where their own needs are everything and everyone else is, as Sakura says, a bit player on their stage with them cast in the major role.

interesting Pages. My mum also used to go totally cold on me or shout at me when I showed weakness or cried. However, she didn't do that to my younger sister.

She now blames this different treatment on her 'terrible postnatal depression' after me. She once told me 'you represented to me everything that was bad and your sister everything that was good'. She expected me just to live with that explanation, and forgive her. I still can't. I think it stinks that she could set up these shallow '2d' representations of young, vulnerable children who both needed her.

Did I mention that she's a therapist- she has spent 15-20 years now in therapy herself and is certainly a different person, all the rages etc are gone, but she still has the coldness. Her relationship with me has not been part of her therapy (EXCEPT in terms of her 'forgiving' me for my teenage hatred of her and for still being 'difficult' ). So while I don't at all condone the behaviour of any mother on here- they have to be responsible for what they have to done to their child and adult daughters- it also makes me wonder how deeply scarred these women must be, to inflict this sort of emotional pain and absolutely not be able to recognise it.

in terms of mistreatment by her own mother btw, my mother has told some pretty dark tales of being put in foster care at times, told she was 'evil', etc. My gran was a religious fanatic who suffered a lot of pnd herself by the sound of it and got no support at all from my grandfather, at one point she collapsed totally and had to be hospitalised which was when all the children got fostered, cos he wouldn't look after them.

All the children, and particularly the 2 daughters, are now rather strange, insensitive people, but my mother is acknowledged to be the 'worst' of them, is the only one to have needed psychiatric treatment and has produced 2 clinically depressed daughters! So there is certainly something to do with not getting basic needs met, also perhaps a predisposition in certain people to hysterical/narcissistic behaviour? who knows.

I liked your last post, Pages. I do think it helps to imagine our mums as deeply damaged people, rather than bad. Thats how I cope with mine, as I said, by just "knowing" that she`s insane. Not by thinking that she really must hate me. She is one of seven kids, and my grandad doted on her. She is from a working class family (very poor, really), but she had a horse (!) and was the only one who managed to get into grammar school. So in one sense I thought this narcissism could have been brought about by extra special treatment in the family. BUT I know my grandad had a foul and insane temper, because I was on the receiving end of it once (very traumatic, I still remember it clearly). But from what I know, she was exempt from his temper in their family.

WHat bothers me more though, is the relationship she had with her mum. My Nan was a lovely nan, but I really wonder to what extent my mum got her needs met by her mother. There is nothing I can place my finger on, but there was obviously something not right there. Maybe my nan was jealous that my mum was the golden girl in my grandfathers eyes, and took it out on her in more snidey ways. I have no idea really. As I said, it does help to think like this. It does still worry me though, about my relationship with DD. As I said, I thought that if I go the basics covered i.e didnt beat her up, or scream etc, then that would be enough. But its not, is it? You need to go deeper. I know I love DD, I just hope I dont repeat any old patterns. I know Im emotionally needy, probably, but Id never want her to feel this. And I d never want to compete with her for the same toy (like in that analogy, PAges) or for the share of attention. (AGain, maybe what my Nan was doing with my mum). I suppose at the end of the day, its about admitting we have no control over our children.
The book LEtting go as children grow, by Deborah JAckson, is brilliant IMO. It takes you through the newborn stage, to the teenage years and onward into adulthood. Its about not defining and controlling your children, or being too involved in their lives. But just sitting back, accepting them for who they are, and being there for them when they need you. Its like a bible to me. Its not a self-help book, more a method of child-rearing. It deals with control issues that mothers have.

Some very interesting posts on here recently. Even more, is the realisation of being a parent & knowing that it is the hardest job in the world. Getting the 'happy medium'! We don't learn about it at school, & even if we did I don't think we would be mentally developed enough to take it on board.

It's hard not to worry Sakura, about our own relationships with our DC's, but, we have at least all realised a pattern we have seen with our own parents/grandparents & are willing to not let it carry on with our own children.

Like Charlieq says it's being able to recognise it, & we are recognising why our parents behaved like they did, not that we condone it, but at least we recognise it & that makes us more determined to not let the legacy go on further.

I'd say we are lucky in the way that we have, as we could very easily have slipped into the same pattern because it is 'all we know'.

What I do know is, it wasn't just my mother that suffered because of her childhood, my auntie did too. I have always been able to talk to her about how my mother treated me. Although she is very bitter towards my Nan, she went onto have just one child & made sure he never had the same upbringing as what she did. She would do anything for her son (my cousin)& only ever wanted the best for him. He had a 'normal' childhood, with love & affection, & I do remember my own mother complaining about my auntie, (when I was a child) saying, that my cousin was spoilt & short of a good hiding (as she used to say). But that was my mum's perception on it, because she following 'what she knew'.
My cousin has grown up into a lovely man & has recently become a father himself. He loves his mum & dad, & has a great relationship with both of them. One thing I do know is, he has no emotional/pschological problems about his childhood.

Hi there, interesting what you say about whether narcissism can come about from being too spoilt (Sakura's mum and Musiclover's cousin) as have just finished reading the book by Alice Miller (The Roots of Violence in Child rearing) and she addresses this and concludes that it is not possible to breed a narcissist by giving them too much love and attention, this will create the opposite (ML's cousin and hopefully our children) but that "spoiling a child" is a form of abuse as it generally happens because the parents can't or won't be bothered with taking the time to impose boundaries and so it is not a loving act.

Sakura I do understand your concerns but you are so aware that I can't see how you could "act out" your past on your DD. The "acting out" comes from the unconscious, according to Alice Miller, and she cites some vey extreme examples, one being Hitler, in her analysis of how the past can be reenacted (Hitler didn't have any children so he took it out on the Jews)but she concludes very firmly that if you are able to voice your anguish and anger about what happened to you as a child there won't be any need to repeat it. So we are all doing the right thing right here!!!!!!

YEs, its an interesting point about boundaries. The problem isn`t the fact that my mum was given a horse , which could have been given out of love. ITs the fact that there were no boundaries there that stated:

"NO, you canT have a horse because, not only can we not afford to get the other kids one too, but they will even have to go without, so that we can afford to buy this for you. But let me give you a cuddle instead, and see if we can sort out a few riding lessons" That would have been boundary, wouldnt it? And as you said, boundaries are offered out of love.

I really hope that Alice Miller is right. THe thing is, I always kind of knew my mum was a nutcase. I told every boyfriend I had, and was always looking to be rescued. I had a lot of anger, and with one boyfriend, who I was with for 4 years, I was even acting out my parents terrible relationship because it was <strong>normality</strong> for me, but not only that- it felt right, and it felt like love. I read that "damaged" people (lets say like we are) search for other emotionally damaged people to couple with. Healthy people may appear much less interesting to us. I thought my behaviour was because I was a passionate person (!!!) I didnT realise I was acting out an age old script.
But it took the sheer hell of the wedding scenario for me to finally want to put a stop to it and want to change. Maybe if she hadn`T have pushed me until I "snapped", I might have acted out her mistakes again. I do think we on this thread have a lot of self awareness, but I do think we also really have to want to change. I mean, sometimes I think a "good fight" brings me a sense of catharsis and temporary peace of mind, or a "good drink" does the same. I have to change all of these habits and see them as wrong, and its very very difficult.

OMG!
I have only just read Sakura's last post out of all of this thread and it seems to be very very personally salient

"I was even acting out my parents terrible relationship because it was normality for me, but not only that- it felt right, and it felt like love. ....... I thought my behaviour was because I was a passionate person (!!!) I didnT realise I was acting out an age old script.

That was me! It took a move of 12000 miles away from her and 10 years of marriage to realise this.

It can be got over, and the selfawareness is key.

Sorry, I know I sound a bit negative. Its just that when I was in the UK, things didnT go as well as Id hoped with my dad. We carried on the "act of normality, but one day I got really angry because he was <span class="italic">still</span> denying my hurt from my childhood. He even said ask your brothers- they know its not true I really thought Id got somewhere with him, but perhaps the old script is just too powerful for him to deal with. Denial is a much simpler way to cope. except you can`t move on, of course.

Hi sunnywong, Crossed posts with you. Hope thisthread is helpful. got to go, baby crying

Me too Sakura! I was in a relationship for 5 years and got drunk and created high drama throughout. Some of his friends hated me and thought i treated him like crap and the others liked my fieriness and passion. I don't know what changed but I hate arguing now and on the whole me and DH have a peaceful life, and I like it that way. But I still like a good drink when I am feeling fired up over something...

I too realised the other day why I got bullied at school. It really clicked with me something my counsellor said about me seeking out people who were going to treat me badly like I was at home. There were really nice girls at school but they weren't interesting enough for me (like you say, I just couldn't relate to them because they were too normal) so I hung out with a group of equally damaged girls who loved me one minute and then shunned me the next (just like my mother). One of them used to say things like "You are like a sister to me Pages, I will never have a friend as close as you, ever" and the next day she would be ganging up on me and sniggering behind my back with the other girls. I guess they were all so needy too. It makes so much sense now.

I had changed a lot by the time I met DH and had 7 years being single and finding out who I really was and changing career etc and I was very happy in myself when I met DH. I was the cake, he was the icing iyswim. He comes from a family who has similar issues as mine but not so bad.

Sorry about your Dad Sakura. I guess he wants to be there for you, but then the defense mechanism in your family (denial) is so elaborately set up and has been in operation such a long time, it would be a major thing for him to come out and admit everything you say is true. He is also protecting himself, because if he admits it was all as you say then he failed to protect you. It is classic toxic behaviour to get collaboration from other family members. It is strange for me to read because you are in the position where everyone is still talking to you, but still in denial, and in some ways (but not others) that's harder than just having them out of your life.

my DH has few family issues, no depression etc. But sometimes I find myself longing for another angry depressive like my first fiance (it exploded in flames!) who would have more empathy with what I feel.

I can understand why certain women go for 'difficult' men and v.v. Marrying DH was a way out of that cycle for me but I find myself itching to 'make trouble' a lot (I suppose like my mum did all the time).

LOL at itching to make trouble charlieq. Just because its so true. Its not as though I LOVE fighting, its just that I find it so hard to just let things slide. These days when I look back on something I got annoyed/angry about, I realise that a normal person maybe wouldnT have got angry at their husband about that thing. But the other side of me thinks, well I cant be wrong ALL the time, so maybe he was being annoying. Its very confusing to doubt myself all the time. But I know its better than thinking I was always in the right, like my mum.
Thanks PAges- yes its a shame about my dad. And its a shame that even now protecting his own feelings is more important that giving me the closure I need and respecting mine. He wants (as part of the act, I suppose) to visit me for a few weeks sometime this year. I want to say yes, because I like spending time with him. HeS a clever, interesting guy. But Ill have to say no, to preserve my boundaries and self respect.

Sakura has your marriage hit the rocks a few times then (mine has)

I think I grew up angry all the time and I'm still angry, plus I saw my mother scream and yell constantly and always get her own way. So now if I'm angry and shouting I never know if it's 'justified' anger. It's like a valve opens and it gets out of hand immediately.

Really not good with kids, especially.
There's nothing worse than feeling like a carbon copy of one's toxic mother is there??

I always apologise to DS if I lose it. My mother didn't know the meaning of the word 'sorry' or apparently how to pronounce it.

Sorry about your dad Sakura but do understand. Sometimes your boundaries are just too fragile/necessary to let anyone from the past in. I can't shut my dad out, feel I still need him as he was the parent whom I loved as a child, even though every time I see him I feel let down.

You two sound like you are in a similar situation with your dads. I am dying to shout at you both "just take him on any terms" but I guess that is my own weakness at never having had a dad. (I used to long to have been someone's "little princess", it ws a like a physical aching, all the time. But DH really has filled that gap). I guess it must be hard to have to keep the boundaries all the time.

I know exactly what you mean about the valve opening, but you know I have really started to learn lately to try and look at what the outcome will be if I let rip, even if DH is in the wrong. For example, at the weekend DH couldn't find his glasses, me and the dc were in the car waiting to go out, DH hunting all over the house for them as he was driving, I move the car to the front of the house, run in the house to help him look whilst engine running and dc in the back and he yells at me "You're blocking the bloody road! Go and move the car" I felt really upset, after all it was him keeping us all waiting, but said calmly "I'll drive if you like, if you can't find them" He yells "Why don't you? Why don't you just bloody go on your own?!!" I walk out to car, get in drivers seat, put my foot on the accelerator and think "This will teach him" and then realise that what was going to be a lovely afternoon was going to be me and the dc alone, me feeling upset, the dc picking up on that and missing him, him feeling upset, and when I got home with the dc, an evening of not talking and me crying in my bedroom....you get the picture.

The old me would have driven off for definite. But as much as I wanted to "show him" (justifiably because he was being an arse) I knew that he was just frustrated and annoyed with himself, not me, so I got into the passenger seat, he came out two minutes later, got into the drivers seat and as he put his hands on the wheel he looked at me, I looked at him, we both burst out laughing and had a lovely afternoon. Now you may think I let him get away with something - but who was the winner? (Both of us is the answer. Though I think I got a bit of moral highground out of it ).

Or maybe you think we just sound like a pair of stupid kids... but I know my mother would have been tight lipped and cold if it were her until she got an apology. She never says sorry, either, like your mum Charlieq.

I guess what I am trying to say in a long-winded way is..."If you keep on doing what you've always done, you'll keep on getting what you've always got".

Aww, you and your DH sound sweet together, Pages.
I havent actually been with DH that long (married 18 months). Hes different to what Im used to, very calm. Generous with money, does his share of the housework, brilliant dad. I canT complain, really. But sometimes, that little feeling comes back saying, Is this love? WHeres the fire? WHeres the spark? WHeres the fighting and making up sex? But I know that if youre in that kind of intense relationship, you cant see straight, and dont have any energy for anything else. With my ex, if wed had an argument the night before, ID be totally useless as a human being the next day. Crap at work and at life. Now, my life is more rational. I do feel empty sometimes, like hes not the one for me. But I know that Im probably still secretly searching for a man who is as emotionally damaged as I am. Because fighting is all I know, it feels so much like love. Lack of fighting = lack of love.
But I will not subject myself to that same old pattern ever again. It wouldnt be okay for DD for one thing. So even when I have my doubts, I think, well, Ive made the best of a bad job. And sometimes, I do feel really close to DH, and when you have kids the priorities in your relationship changes anyway. "Generous with money" and "does his share of housework" suddenly becomes more important than "fantastic sex". I think I`m probably in this one for the long-term.

Oh, and the example you described of that argument with your DH sounds like me at the weekend. I got stressed because we were on a day out in a town we dont know very well, and DH kind of took control over how to get to where we wanted to go. I let him, thinking he must know, even though I thought we should just decide which way to go together. Anyway, he got it wrong, and I said "Why donT we go this way", (and I was right). Well, I kind of got pissed off about the whole thing NOT because he made a mistake, but confused that he didnt want to decide together in the first place. ANYHOW, he got really annoyed, and I said "Oh, lets just go home then" But as you said, that would have spoiled the whole Sunday, (which I would have done in the past). But I stopped and said, "Look, lets start again, Sorry for over reacting" I didnT really think I was in the wrong to be honest, but I didn`t want to spoil the day and become that "tight-lipped" woman that you describe your mum was.

I also think, like you said, a lot of him getting annoyed was because he was annoyed with himself (getting it wrong ) rather than actually with me.

Sounds so childish when I write it on here. But there it is. ANd the main thing is we enjoyed the rest of the day.

I know exactly what you mean about seeking out relationships where you get the drama, Sakura and I never went out with the "nice guys" when I was younger. I was always drawn like a magnet to the charismatic unreliable ones who were going to make me feel hugely insecure (because that was my familiar feeling) and then try desparately to win the battle and make them my slaves, and once I had won it and made them completely dependent on me so that they would put up with virtually enaything from me including screaming, shouting and even hitting (once), I didn't want them them anymore.

I think by the time I had met DH I had sorted myself out a lot and he was very different from the others, but still to some extent damaged in similar ways to me. I tend to use every "issue" or argument now as an opportunity for growth, or to learn something about myself, and we do seem to be evolving from a couple who had really had rows into a more peaceful life. I don't actually want or miss the drama anymore...

I think you have been very insightful, Sakura, and very fortunate, to have chosen someone this time who is dependable and generous. IMO good relationships are always evolving anyway and you may yet reach new depths that you never even knew existed, which far outweigh the superficial (and, like you say, draining) relationships with passion and high drama. Me and DH are best mates and I still really fancy him after 8 years, but I wouldn't say passion is at the top of the list of things that keep us together. It is more like a deep feeling of love and a lot of laughs (even when he is in the wrong ). Oh, and I sometimes (like you did) say sorry when I know I am not in the wrong, just to smooth things over. DH can be pigheaded and irrational when he is angry or upset, but he is a fair person so I feel he knows inside when he is really at fault, and my apology will niggle at him a bit!!!

PS I take it you have heard of "Women who love too much", by Robin Norwood, Sakura? (When being in love means being in pain...)

That was a life changing book for me. I read it just before I broke up with the 5 year relationship I mentioned, where I was a complete nutcase, and it really was the beginning of a lot of changes for the better in my ways of relating.

Funny how I didn't realise that I was no longer co-dependant with men, but still was hugely co-dependant with my mother!!

Well, I feel I am getting to know your personalities a little more lately. It feels good to know that we are no alone in how we react to different situations.
Pages, reading some of your posts have ed me. The part where you mentioned about 'making them completely dependant on you, & you screaming & hitting out. I can't really explain why I'm ed to tell the truth. But although I think we are so similar in ways, in another we are rather different.
I too was drawn to men who made me feel insecure, but I never had a long serious relationship until I met my DS's father.(I scared them off)
Like I've mentioned before, it was very volatile, but although I am good at admitting when I am in the wrong, I have to say that it was volatile on his behalf. I was drawn to him because he didn't show fear of love & commitment from me. I confused love with sex IYSWIM. I truely believed he loved me. We had been together 9 months before he hit me, by that time I felt trapped. Mainly because I had no where to go if I left him. I certainly couldn't go back home! We did alot of arguing & then making up with sex! At the time, the spark felt good, but personally I couldn't do that now.

When ever Dh & I argue, there is certainly no sex straight away & I wouldn't want there to be either, because i feel it is wrong as the argument is then never resolved. To make me feel better about the situation, I have to talk about the argument & get to the bottom of it & thats when the sex can happen again. Luckily DH feels the same. As much as he would have sex at the 'drop of a hat', he too cant after a row.
My relationship sounds very much like yours Pages, we are very good friends & we too have a deep feeling of love & still fancy each other after 7 half years. We laugh alot too, but I think the very important part of our relationship is communication. We do communicate well.
Although saying that, there are times when we are very much alike & moody. I can be very snappy (PMT time), but that is more at the kids, than at DH (strange, but true).
Both of us are very similar, we bite our tongues alot of the time & that is why we are moody, because we dont say what we are really thinking, & maybe we dont know how to without offending each other!

Last Friday DH came home from work in a fowl mood! He had forgotton to put on his nicotine patch! At first I thought he was moody with me, but then he was snappy at the kids too. I said 'had a bad day at work' & he just replied 'NO'. So I tried to make converstion about the day etc, like we normally do, but the lack of response riled me. I suggested I would make the trip to the chippy, as we always have chippy tea on fridays, (but he usually goes). Because I had tried but to no avail to get him to tell me what was wrong with him, I walked out & slammed the door behind me. When I got back he was sucking up abit to me.
Anyway the evening went on & we were still not talking properly, like we normally do. We had a drink & then the truth came out easier. It was probably down to him not having his patch on, but he couldnt really put his finger on why he felt so angry. He had been like that all day & snappy with his workmate too. He was stuck in traffic on the way home & just felt like he wanted to explode. But he did admit that he could start smoking again as he was finding it hard! We talked about the benefits of giving up & I said I understood how hard it is without the patches on.
After that we was fine. But my point to the saga is, it could have very easily got out of hand & exploded into a full scale row, but i just can't do it. I really don't like rowing or approaching people when they are like that either. I dont like confrontation.

My mum always accused me of never asking her 'how she felt'. She was right, I never did! BUT I always knew how she felt,she made it clear enough by her body language or just by looking at her, I knew. Something inside me just couldn't bring myself to ask, as I didn't want my head bitten off maybe.

I feel terrible now. I only ever hit him once when I was blind drunk. In fact I don't even remember doing it, but his friend told me after.

It was a long time ago

On the Guardian's talk section of their website (www.guardian.co.uk/talk) there is a section called Family. In this section there is a thread called "Severing Family Ties". It can be read without registering.

Ahh pages, I didn't mean to offend you dear at all. I am so sorry. Im now.
I just have a picture of you in my head & just couldnt imagine you doing it thats all. I actually LOL when I read it. You just seem to have so much control over your thoughts & everything you do, that I was shocked by it, thats all. You give such clear advise on here too & I'm glad you were able to express how you used to be. We have all done things in the past that we wish we hadn't or wish to forget.
I am not judging you in any way either love.

I really didn't want to offend you in any way. I feel awful now. But sometimes I cant get across how I want to say things in type. IYSWIM. I wasn't shocked in the way it probably came across, eg.. you were out of order. If I'd have said it to you, I would be smiling & saying I was shocked in jest.

I cant apologise enough Pages, please dont feel bad. It doesnt matter to me in the slightest what you have done in the past.

Please Forgive me {blush}