Parent with undiagnosed AS (long)

[icecreamsandwich]

I'm a bit wary of posting this. I know there are lots of posters who have children with ASD or Aspergers, and I'd like to be clear that I'm not somehow attacking people who have these diagnoses, or lacking in understanding of them. There is almost nothing out there for NT children of AS parents, only a Wordpress blog that seems to have closed, and I don't have anyone else to talk to about this. I don't know anyone else in this situation.

My parents were abusive and as an adult I eventually went NC with them for the sake of my mental health. I do not think I am just clutching at straws trying to explain my childhood; I would bet my kidney that my father has undiagnosed AS or ASD. I always used to think: it's like he is autistic. I just never made the leap to thinking he actually was, because I suppose I assumed someone would have picked it up.

I'm absolutely not saying having an autism spectrum disorder means you are going to be abusive or treat other people badly; however I do think the way it manifested in my father has been very damaging for me.

The main symptoms/traits he seems to have are:

• Mind blindness / lack of theory of mind. He has never been able to grasp that anyone else has different thoughts or feelings to him. When I was a child he sometimes looked after me alone and would just give me toast instead of a proper dinner because he was happy with that. He couldn't comprehend that I might want something different.

• He thinks if something upsets or confuses him everyone else will feel the same. And that if not, ditto.

• Not understanding how I could know things he didn't. Often asking how I knew about things that are common knowledge.

• Repeating the same stories and jokes over and over. It's as if he'd learn a joke was funny and tell it over and over expecting it to have the same effect. Some of these stories reflect very badly on him but he doesn't see this.

• Speaking to people in an incredibly patronising way and not understanding why they take offence. He was in hospital for a while a few years ago and several nurses with non-UK accents thought he was being racist as he kept asking them to repeat what they said as they weren't speaking clearly; he is actually a bit hard of hearing (which should have been better flagged up to changing staff) but it sounded like he was saying they weren't speaking English properly. He understood why they thought he was racist, and he didn't mean to be, but he kept doing it, even though he was given suggestions of better ways to say it.

• He has also been known to ask people if they have ever heard the phrase "that's not rocket science", and be confused and annoyed when they think he's being patronising.

• Not understanding what is and isn't an appropriate topic of conversation, eg wanting to talk about finance at a child's birthday party.

• Not understanding sarcasm, hints or social cues. Not understanding why some things might be embarrassing. Behaving in absolutely socially excruciating ways.

• Not understanding teenagers. If ever I slammed a door he would ask, genuinely perplexed, why I was trying to damage the house.

• Over-attachment to objects. He was obsessed with safety and would unplug all electrical appliances at night. But they had a leaky kettle that leaked boiling water on my hand, resulting in hospital treatment, and he wouldn't get rid of the kettle and got angry when he was asked to. He also wouldn't get rid of a TV that was a fire risk.

• Meltdowns. I don't know how else to describe them. The worst one was when I took the video out of the video player without asking and the counter reset.

• Asking unknown callers "how did you get this number" and grilling them to a ridiculous degree. My uni housemate once phoned my parents' house by accident instead of my mobile; she was trying to get hold of me to say she was going to hospital with an injured back. My dad spent ages asking questions about how she got this number and expressed no concern about her injury.

• Worked in a field with a very high proportion of people with autism. Was made redundant and never got another job as he had no practical, social or interpersonal skills.

Before I went NC, I tried mentioning the possibility of AS to my mother and sibling. My mother was extremely resistant to the idea at first, then said it might be worth looking into. My sibling said: that's just OCD (no, he has OCD but it doesn't explain everything else) and wouldn't it have been picked up (not necessarily!) and what's the point in a diagnosis anyway, what difference would it make.

I didn't mention it to my dad, because I have long since given up trying to have a relationship with him; not because I am some heartless cow but because he is so unpleasant and angry and difficult that I had to withdraw.

My dad did some awful things to me in my childhood, which I'm not going into because it's possible there's enough detail here to out me; suffice to say there was abuse, and I went NC partly because of that. Maybe I'm just desperately searching for answers as to why my parents seemed to love me and think well of me yet treated me very badly without seeming to realise that they were.

I realise that's the case with a lot of abusive parents who don't have AS, but...

My mother, I'm not sure about. She seems to have some traits of narcissism, and also some autistic ones; I just don't know. I have had to bow out of the whole thing, not because I am horrible and selfish but because their behaviour was so toxic and damaging that I was on the verge of a breakdown.

My sibling is the golden child and is very invested in the whole family being good and perfect; I am pretty much NC with them too as they were very unsupportive and unhelpful about the issues I was having. They originally suggested I go NC but then freaked out when I did and turned flying monkey on me. They also did some other shitty things including telling other family members I was in therapy when I had made it clear this was confidential.

Anyway, as it stands I am NC. I think my father has AS; I think he would have had a much better life, as would his family, if this had been picked up. I don't know what can be done now though. I've thought about writing to him and suggesting he try to get diagnosed; I don't feel able to phone him because I'm terrified of the verbal abuse I'm likely to get. I don't know if it's something that could be dealt with in an anonymous safeguarding referral, as he has contact with my sibling's children. I'm not saying undiagnosed AS is automatically a safeguarding issue, but in this case it may be.

I suppose I have a fantasy in which he gets a diagnosis, has autism-informed counselling through the NAS and actually changes. I'm sure he would be happier and less frustrated. But that's not going to happen, is it? I feel like I am the only one who sees this. It is driving me a little mad.

I don't think I am jumping too quickly to AS. I have thought for years that he seems to be autistic. I don't think I am attributing traits of narcissism to AS; it's quite hard to discuss it with anyone as people sometimes say I'm just looking for excuses for him being an asshole, and I don't think that is what I'm doing.

Please don't tell me how unfair I'm being not speaking to him. He has done some fucking awful things in the past that I haven't detailed here and it's not a failure of understanding on my part. But I feel guilty knowing that he probably has this, and that nobody is doing anything to help him get diagnosed, and I don't know what I could do about it. I could write to his GP, but he has had the same GP for years who has failed to pick this up and has missed other very serious things in the past but my dad won't change GP as he can't handle change.

I am aware of the Stately Homes thread and post on there sometimes (under my usual name, have name changed for this) but am not sure people who know about AS would look on there.

Any advice would be welcome but please don't criticise me for going NC.

I actually have that book, bought it recently after it was recommended on another thread but haven't read it yet, must start! Thanks for the reminder.

Sorry to keep this conversation going and going but one thing I'm aware of is that my dad tried to be better than his parents, in his own messed-up way. He was hit a lot as a child and tried not to do this to us; however on the occasions when I did get smacked the message was basically that he didn't want to hit me but I had driven him to it and I'm not entirely sure that was better (given I usually didn't know what I was supposed to have done wrong).

One of the hardest things about my upbringing was the lack of meaningful boundaries, it was all about my dad and his foibles, so I got into massive trouble for putting the bathmat in the wrong place. But more than anything for arguing with him when I knew he was being utterly unreasonable.

Ics there are sooo many similarities in what you describe to my childhood/upbringing. With me it was more my mum than my dad though. I think they both have asd but df was just 'distant' and not really 'involved' in my upbringing iykwim? The things you say about your df are what I'd say about my DM.

She has actually massively improved in recent years. She left df and has her own space that she has 100% control over. She controls her routine, what she eats, her 'objects'. It makes perfect sense now I'm seeing it through the 'autistic lens'. She has gone from someone I hated to someone I voluntarily spend short periods of time with. We do still have frequent failings out though and weeks/months of nc.

icecream,

I feel for you. I am married to someone who is AS, is prob in the same age range as your F. No DX and no point, frankly, in getting one. Our local council won't spend money on more urgent matters. I have persuaded him to understand that he is AS, in part through making him read books such as The Curious Incident, in part through suggestion, in part through pointing out how many great thinkers, writers, creative artists are.

But I attended a Sarah Hendrickxs seminar which was riveting. She does counselling, although as she is AS herself she will probably be better at explaining the AS side than the NT side. She was pretty clear that one could expect no fundamental change. So I am deeply envious of your friend, and think her DP must have come a long way.

I suspect alas that getting your F to accept, accept the need for change, and change is too much to hope for. Especially if there is no support from your M.

But I wonder if it is worth counselling for you? With someone who does AS.

We had no boundaries either other than an ever changing don't do this, or this, or this, else he'll go fucking mad. There were times when he had contamination fears, and OCD/extreme rigidity and basically everything about other human beings provoked massive anxiety and rage. He liked arguing though, it was an emotional release for him, so he encouraged it because it legitimised his behaviour.

He tried to be better than his parents too, and managed to be sporadic in his violence, which doesn't seem like much of an achievement, but it was considering what he had come from.

I see that he was ill equipped to parent me, but also that he did manage to abuse me less than he was abused. I don't hate him. I don't love him. I say I am NC but actually our contact ceased through apathy.

Athena that's good that your DM has improved. I have no idea what will happen when either of my parents ends up on their own.

ancient I think my friend is unusual in terms of the sheer amount of insight he has into his diagnosis and the reasons for it, the adaptations he has made and the fact he sometimes needs people to just back off and stop talking to him.

I am in counselling actually. Not with an AS expert, but it's taken me a long time to trust my counsellor and changing is categorically not an option.

kurious I have been talking with my counsellor about how children need to feel safe and secure and like someone else is in charge. I felt like lunatics were in charge. I have never, until this thread, been able to speak to other people whose household "rules" were driven by OCD as rooted in AS.

There is this way my dad used to look at me, like I was dogshit and he hated me. I was crushed when he looked at me like that on my wedding day. But I think it's actually a pre-meltdown shutdown look. So maybe it didn't mean that he hated me. Maybe it wasn't designed to make me feel like shit. But I won't get the opportunity to ask him.

I actually went NC primarily because of how my mum made me feel with her emotional blankness and general toxic weirdness. And then I just didn't hear from my dad at all. I had started assuming he had AS and it helped me a lot in my conversations with him.

But my mum behaved utterly madly when I went NC and that has made me absolutely walk away. Which was the right decision for me at the time, but I just really miss the illusion that I have parents.

I honestly believe that a lot of what I perceive as hurtful a lot of other NT people would, so I am not weird, but it is not meant as hurtful in the way that if an NT person behaved like that it would be.

That said, DH has admitted recently that he does deliberately wind us up from time to time. And can behave like a shit, which is ArSe not AS imv.

So he prob didn't mean it. And didn't know he was doing it.

ancient I agree.

Someone up thread was talking about being uncomfortable in social situation with their father because they wouldn't behave 'correctly'.
DH does that and I am unconfortable. But clearly he isn't doing that on purpose.

When under stress, he also is going into his own world and I know there are times I can stop in mid sentence and he won't even realise for a good minute. But he isn't ignoring me. Reading this book from an aspie , it made me realise that actually it's some sort of safety mechanism for him.
However, I can promise you it felt like he was stonewalling me or at best ignoring me and that hurts.

In these two examples, there is no way for him to change. The best that can be done is for me to realise there is no malicious intent.

Of course, it doesn't mean that peole with AS will NEVER hurt anyone and will never try and be a pain. But a lot of it is a complete misunderstanding of why they are acting like they are.

Is your dad, my dad? you are describing my dad to a tee. He did obtain an AS diagnosis following a serious illness last year and is now in sheltered housing. My dad is more than autistic, he is also low in empathy, so I feel this is a double whammy. I am on the spectrum too, but don't lack empathy in the way my dad does. I think the two make for a fairly toxic combination

devil it is a toxic combination, sadly.

I think with AS you can often appeal to their logic, in a way that you can't with sociopathic NTs. My dad has shockingly awful theory of mind, is rude to waiters and shop assistants, but I'm finding the older he gets, the more I can reason with him, and he will use his logic to think things through. He has done some hideous things in he past, but I do love the old bugger and he adores his grandchildren and is extremely generous to them.

is rude to waiters and shop assistants

Mine too!

I have also never forgotten the time we went to a vegetarian restaurant and he went through every item on the menu asking: is this vegetarian, is this vegetarian... It might sound funny but it was excruciating.

archive.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html

Interesting, I got 14. I am Ms Average .

I'm far below the normal range at 6. The score doesn't surprise me though

When I worked out that my dad had an ASD, it helped me to feel better for a while. I wanted to believe that I misunderstood a lot of his behaviour, and this was definitely the case some of the time.

He often told me that having children had ruined his life. When I was growing up I thought there was malice behind this, but actually he was just being honest. I see now that he has quite extreme sensory issues that mean that children are intolerable.

But I began to realise when I had my own children that he had also been systematic in his attempts to fuck us up and twist things around. Fortunately, his grasp of my identity was rubbish so I was able to deflect a lot of his crap.

Unfortunately, my brother also has an ASD and he could not deflect anything, and has had a pretty shitty life because of it. I don't know if he has any knowledge about ASD. I feel bad about that, especially having investigated my son's autistic traits.

I don't have a relationship with my brother, although I see him regularly, he is dependent on my mum. He abused me when I was young and I am confused about that too, and is why I can't talk to him about his ASD. i am seeing a counsellor and it is helping and i am trying to find ways to talk about it which is why i am rambling on here. It does help to talk to other people who have insight into ASD and narcissism.

It is not necessary either/or though - he could be AS and an abuser. But it may help you to understand that his behaviour may not have been designed to make you feel crap a particular way. imo It is not really possible to be manipulative if you are not able to read everyday implicit or non-verbal communication. Manipulation assumes the ability to know the unexpressed feelings of others. Baren-Cohen has written on lack of Theory of Mind and ASD. DS1 and DS2 have an ASD and their words or behaviour can be interpreted as rude. Social rules and conventions are not learnt implicitly (through 'osmosis') and so skills have to be explicitly taught, so called 'basic' stuff like saying hello and goodbye, listening skills, eye contact etc. But DS1 can 'pass' for normal and DS2 is also intellectually 'gifted' (99th percentile) and will probably end up in a profession 'where the autism genes are strong'.

Re the AQ test - women present differently from men, upon whose presentations the questionnaire is based.

There is a thread in the SN section that might be of interest to you icecream if you suspect your father had an ASD. Most of us seem to identify the traits in others (usually our DC) before themselves.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/special_needs_recommendations/2311467-Support-thread-for-women-with-suspected-diagnosed-self-diagnosed-ASD-or-ADHD?pg=1&order=

Yes, my dad has no idea when he has been rude, even when I spell it out to him. However, he has done some things in his life that I believe come as a result of his lack of empathy, rather than his AS. All my family are on the spectrum, and I can see we all have different empathy levels

There's a new thread in sn recommendations I've found to be very helpful for any one who think they may be on the spectrum themselves. You can also read through the old threads.

But how do you define empathy?
Is it the ability to read other people feelings?
Is the ability to 'feel' other people feelings (more like transference)?
Is it the ability to put themselves in someone else shoes?

There is a lot of talk around about the fact that actually people with AS have high empathy rather than low empathy.
I personally think that they can 'feel' other people's feelings well but they are struggling to 'guess' what other people's feeling are from face reading, tone of voice etc...
My DH and ds are also completely unable to put themselves into someone else's shoes which then leads to behaviours that could be seen as manipulative or abusive.
Eg I have been struggling with my health recently but until I spelled it out VERY clearly to DH, he couldn't see I can't do the things I used to do, even though it was obvious from my struggles to do it.
You could see his insistence on still doing the same things as abusive (setting me to fail and then telling me I must be lazy). He wasn't.

However, it is also clear that he can 'feel' other people's feeling (think starting crying when you cry etc...). But he won't have the clarity of mind to act on it actually he will avoid that as much as possible BECAUSE he doesn't know what to do with it

I'm glad that this thread has been started, I find it difficult to read so I've just dipped in and out.

I had a very abusive childhood and it has taken many years to understand what was happening and to move past it all.Thankfully,I have and I am Nc with my father.

I have a better relationship with my mother. I was helped to understand that she is autistic and it explained much of her behaviour,how she coped and why she did things,to me.

It was also massively liberating to understand that because someone has difficulties of any nature,it doesn't mean that I am responsible for any of them and I now have boundaries in place. (sorry,I know how psychobabble that sounds,it's just a useful expression for what happened to me)

I think that the 'mystery' element was one of the worst parts to the abuse.I didn't understand,my family didn't understand.it happened in our house. If I spoke up it was met with stern disapproval. Even now when I have broached the subject with friends,they can't understand,their immediate reaction is " oh your poor mum".

I do understand now and I think that mum has some insight too,but communicating things is not the strong point,so we don't talk about it.I now know that her perplexing behaviour does not mean that she doesn't love me but that she loves me in the only way she can,that's fine.

Sadly,she really lost it with me during my teenage and early 20's and some of that damage is not reapairable. So,I don't try- we are ok now.She had a meltdown (correct useage) on mother's day when I asked her to choose something and she had difficulties when I changed a date recently. I acn't stay for more than 2 hours in her house without needing a long run in the cold air,but it's ok,we visit and keep to set rules- it's alright,mostly.

If I sound unsympathetic then that is not intentional. I have few feelings for my mother because of what has happened but this is not generalised to anyone else on the spectrum- please don't be offended! It is such a relief to talk about my childhood.

My ds is going through assessment for AS and that has had a huge effect on me personally and on my understanding.

Me too guggenheim. I understand what you are saying about the mystery element, my NT brother went nc with everyone when he was 20 (i can't say i blame him), and everyone else in my family has some combination of unsupported ASD or Personality disorder +/- mental illness.
I have tried to talk to a couple of friends about it in RL and they both said 'oh your poor dad/mum' too. I feel I am in the process of unravelling what I can.

This thread has made me think about it all and now I think that my dad is probably narc and maybe low empathy rather than ASD traits because he is so antagonistic, and definitely capable of projection. He really seemed to get emotional fulfilment out of goading and frightening us, which doesn't really fit with an ASD.

When my son was assessed I read the Tony Attwood book, and I could see that my brother fits the classical description of aspergers and that many of the things I found irritating about him when I was young were about misunderstanding his perception of the world.

I am wondering now about my mum, she was never actively or intentionally unkind but she was unable to support us emotionally, it was like she couldn't actually see our needs at all.

When I was 13 my brother tried to kill himself, the whole incident passed without comment. When I look at my own family I can't fathom how that could have occurred. I did not expect anything from my father by this point, but my mum is not callous, so the lack of reassurance must have been unintentional, because she did not understand what an unsettling incident it was. And she never left my dad, this baffles me because he is so bloody awful to live with. Someone else would have left or been destroyed by it. She hasn't been she is just sort of the same. I have never seen her cry or be emotional at all. She seems to be happy with a low level of social contact.

But maybe this is the effect of living with an abusive man for all of her adult life?

I'm quite grateful that this thread has been started and that it's not turned into an aibu!

It's a really sensitive area and I'd hate to cause any offence.

kuriousoranj Yes, there have been significant events in my life / family life which are just not mentioned. I can't really cope with 'not mentioning' and it's caused me hardship although I can now see that for my mother there was no point to discussing these things.

Hi everyone. I feel a bit uncomfortable going onto the SN threads because they're for people who themselves have AS/ASD, if I've understood correctly? That and it just makes me wonder 'what if'.

I got 16 on the test, which was a relief because I was worried that parental influence might have skewed some of my results. For example, I always notice numberplates and other strings of information because my parents used to point them out.

kurious, you most certainly weren't rambling. And I'm really sorry your brother abused you.

My suicide attempt also passed with barely a ripple. What you said about your mum: "I am wondering now about my mum, she was never actively or intentionally unkind but she was unable to support us emotionally, it was like she couldn't actually see our needs at all" describes mine to a tee. The problem is SHE doesn't see that she has been like this. Nobody else does either. It can be hard remembering to believe myself.

MamanOfThree I would define empathy as being receptive to what other people communicate to you about their own feelings and experiences. A friend recently told me about a philosophical concept called 'qualia', which is the individual, internal experience you have of a given event. So you and I might both stand at a bus stop and be splashed by someone driving through a puddle, but have a different 'qualia' - a different internal experience of it based on our own feelings, life history, etc.

You can't truly know, or imagine, how someone else would feel in a given situation; you can try, but never objectively. True empathy - in my view - is not about being able to figure this out for yourself, but in letting the other person tell you how it feels/felt for them. So it's not about saying: ah yes, I would feel upset if that happened. It's about noticing that this person is showing you they feel/felt upset, and accepting that they feel like that, even if you don't understand why.

I don't think you sound unsympathetic whatsoever.

That must have been very hard for you icecream. I am glad you are still here. And also thank you this has been a really helpful thread for me.