Parent with undiagnosed AS (long)

[icecreamsandwich]

I'm a bit wary of posting this. I know there are lots of posters who have children with ASD or Aspergers, and I'd like to be clear that I'm not somehow attacking people who have these diagnoses, or lacking in understanding of them. There is almost nothing out there for NT children of AS parents, only a Wordpress blog that seems to have closed, and I don't have anyone else to talk to about this. I don't know anyone else in this situation.

My parents were abusive and as an adult I eventually went NC with them for the sake of my mental health. I do not think I am just clutching at straws trying to explain my childhood; I would bet my kidney that my father has undiagnosed AS or ASD. I always used to think: it's like he is autistic. I just never made the leap to thinking he actually was, because I suppose I assumed someone would have picked it up.

I'm absolutely not saying having an autism spectrum disorder means you are going to be abusive or treat other people badly; however I do think the way it manifested in my father has been very damaging for me.

The main symptoms/traits he seems to have are:

• Mind blindness / lack of theory of mind. He has never been able to grasp that anyone else has different thoughts or feelings to him. When I was a child he sometimes looked after me alone and would just give me toast instead of a proper dinner because he was happy with that. He couldn't comprehend that I might want something different.

• He thinks if something upsets or confuses him everyone else will feel the same. And that if not, ditto.

• Not understanding how I could know things he didn't. Often asking how I knew about things that are common knowledge.

• Repeating the same stories and jokes over and over. It's as if he'd learn a joke was funny and tell it over and over expecting it to have the same effect. Some of these stories reflect very badly on him but he doesn't see this.

• Speaking to people in an incredibly patronising way and not understanding why they take offence. He was in hospital for a while a few years ago and several nurses with non-UK accents thought he was being racist as he kept asking them to repeat what they said as they weren't speaking clearly; he is actually a bit hard of hearing (which should have been better flagged up to changing staff) but it sounded like he was saying they weren't speaking English properly. He understood why they thought he was racist, and he didn't mean to be, but he kept doing it, even though he was given suggestions of better ways to say it.

• He has also been known to ask people if they have ever heard the phrase "that's not rocket science", and be confused and annoyed when they think he's being patronising.

• Not understanding what is and isn't an appropriate topic of conversation, eg wanting to talk about finance at a child's birthday party.

• Not understanding sarcasm, hints or social cues. Not understanding why some things might be embarrassing. Behaving in absolutely socially excruciating ways.

• Not understanding teenagers. If ever I slammed a door he would ask, genuinely perplexed, why I was trying to damage the house.

• Over-attachment to objects. He was obsessed with safety and would unplug all electrical appliances at night. But they had a leaky kettle that leaked boiling water on my hand, resulting in hospital treatment, and he wouldn't get rid of the kettle and got angry when he was asked to. He also wouldn't get rid of a TV that was a fire risk.

• Meltdowns. I don't know how else to describe them. The worst one was when I took the video out of the video player without asking and the counter reset.

• Asking unknown callers "how did you get this number" and grilling them to a ridiculous degree. My uni housemate once phoned my parents' house by accident instead of my mobile; she was trying to get hold of me to say she was going to hospital with an injured back. My dad spent ages asking questions about how she got this number and expressed no concern about her injury.

• Worked in a field with a very high proportion of people with autism. Was made redundant and never got another job as he had no practical, social or interpersonal skills.

Before I went NC, I tried mentioning the possibility of AS to my mother and sibling. My mother was extremely resistant to the idea at first, then said it might be worth looking into. My sibling said: that's just OCD (no, he has OCD but it doesn't explain everything else) and wouldn't it have been picked up (not necessarily!) and what's the point in a diagnosis anyway, what difference would it make.

I didn't mention it to my dad, because I have long since given up trying to have a relationship with him; not because I am some heartless cow but because he is so unpleasant and angry and difficult that I had to withdraw.

My dad did some awful things to me in my childhood, which I'm not going into because it's possible there's enough detail here to out me; suffice to say there was abuse, and I went NC partly because of that. Maybe I'm just desperately searching for answers as to why my parents seemed to love me and think well of me yet treated me very badly without seeming to realise that they were.

I realise that's the case with a lot of abusive parents who don't have AS, but...

My mother, I'm not sure about. She seems to have some traits of narcissism, and also some autistic ones; I just don't know. I have had to bow out of the whole thing, not because I am horrible and selfish but because their behaviour was so toxic and damaging that I was on the verge of a breakdown.

My sibling is the golden child and is very invested in the whole family being good and perfect; I am pretty much NC with them too as they were very unsupportive and unhelpful about the issues I was having. They originally suggested I go NC but then freaked out when I did and turned flying monkey on me. They also did some other shitty things including telling other family members I was in therapy when I had made it clear this was confidential.

Anyway, as it stands I am NC. I think my father has AS; I think he would have had a much better life, as would his family, if this had been picked up. I don't know what can be done now though. I've thought about writing to him and suggesting he try to get diagnosed; I don't feel able to phone him because I'm terrified of the verbal abuse I'm likely to get. I don't know if it's something that could be dealt with in an anonymous safeguarding referral, as he has contact with my sibling's children. I'm not saying undiagnosed AS is automatically a safeguarding issue, but in this case it may be.

I suppose I have a fantasy in which he gets a diagnosis, has autism-informed counselling through the NAS and actually changes. I'm sure he would be happier and less frustrated. But that's not going to happen, is it? I feel like I am the only one who sees this. It is driving me a little mad.

I don't think I am jumping too quickly to AS. I have thought for years that he seems to be autistic. I don't think I am attributing traits of narcissism to AS; it's quite hard to discuss it with anyone as people sometimes say I'm just looking for excuses for him being an asshole, and I don't think that is what I'm doing.

Please don't tell me how unfair I'm being not speaking to him. He has done some fucking awful things in the past that I haven't detailed here and it's not a failure of understanding on my part. But I feel guilty knowing that he probably has this, and that nobody is doing anything to help him get diagnosed, and I don't know what I could do about it. I could write to his GP, but he has had the same GP for years who has failed to pick this up and has missed other very serious things in the past but my dad won't change GP as he can't handle change.

I am aware of the Stately Homes thread and post on there sometimes (under my usual name, have name changed for this) but am not sure people who know about AS would look on there.

Any advice would be welcome but please don't criticise me for going NC.

icecream don't worry.
I'm a mum of a child with AS but also the one of an NT child whose father is on the spectrum (so I see how things can go wrong!) and the wife of someone with AS (so again I have a good idea of how it feels to be in the position of the bewildered partner)

I have all the worries from all sides unfortunately. And I agree with you!

I suppose that we all try and make sense of things. For me, the fact it's unintentional and the fact it's also clear he loves his dcs (and me) is what is taking precedence.
I can imagine easily that when you have gone through so much, it's the hardship that takes precedence.

The page of NAS is interesting and I think only usable by teenagers with a very good empathy (It's clearly playing on that - Look it's not done to annoy you and you need to understand that ...). I think that it's something you can ask from a parent, you might ask from a partner but only in very short quantities from a child/teenager.
A list of support groups, tel number would be great but I suspect they just don't exist.

Sorry Maman, I think I was being a bit defensive earlier. People saying "it's not abuse" triggers feelings from my childhood when everyone was telling me to be understanding, that's just what he's like, your dad had a bad childhood, stop complaining, etc.

You DO have the worries from all sides, blimey!

I think NAS should be signposting people to things like young carers associations and suchlike.

I don't know if it would be of any help to you, and you may already be aware if you work in MH services, but most towns have a Carers Support center ( charities). I was advised to contact them by the consultant when DS1 was diagnosed.
I know you aren't a carer, but through them you can access support groups where you may meet people who understand your situation and can you can talk to.
They were also able to give me info on another support group in a nearby town for families of ASD.

Actually I hadn't thought of that, thank you.

As the daughter of an abusive father (who also happens to have an ASD) and a parent of a son with an ASD. I think it is wrong to suggest that people with ASD cannot intentionally abuse people; they aren't in a special category because they have an ASD. If they have had fucked up lives they will fuck up other people just like NT people do.

Hi Icecreamsandwich,

I am a little bit the same as you. I've finally gone NC with the stepfather who brought me up all my life. I don't think he has the same as your DF (possible Aspergers) but I do think SF is undiagnosed bipolar and some kind of narcissistic disorder. There are so many personality traits and terrible things he did that fit into the bipolar category.

The reason I identify with you, is that I understand how it feels to want an explanation to why someone acts in an abusive way. It's like you have read most of the way through a murder mystery and find that the last page is torn out of the book. You look at the clues and it all seems to fit to one final idea, but you will never know if your theory is correct. It's frustrating.

Do you also feel (like I do) partly a bit sorry for your parent in that there may be a medical explanation as to why their life is dysfunctional and that if they could access this treatment they, and those around them, would be happier.

No advice, just saying that I understand where you are coming from entirely and hope that you figure out how to be at peace with his treatment of you and your family soon.

I don't think you are horrible and selfish icecream and I don't think you should speak to him. I don't think you speak to anybody who has abused you if you do not want to.

oops, just realised I called daughter DS - that's why I avoid acronyms!
I also wonder if there is any sort of version of Al-Anon but for families of AS?
There has to some sort of support groups for MH relatives. Although it sounds that your dad does have some form of Autism/Aspergers, it could be a MH issue?
If you have already had personal therapy could a support group of some sort act as group tharapy? It ceryainly helped me realise that we weren't the only people with the sort of problems we had when she was at her worst. That sounds really bad to take comfort from other families having problems doesn't it? But thats not really what I mean - it stopped me feeling alone and I could talk about what was happening in a safe environment - with people who understood.
You sound lonely, hope you've got real life support there

four re this: Do you also feel (like I do) partly a bit sorry for your parent in that there may be a medical explanation as to why their life is dysfunctional and that if they could access this treatment they, and those around them, would be happier.

Yes, exactly. I think everyone would have benefited, but unfortunately it was all just sort of swept under the carpet. Thank you for your understanding and sorry to hear if your own experiences. The murder mystery analogy is great.

kurious thank you. I appreciate hearing from someone else in the same boat, but I'm sorry you are in that boat.

I also think abuse doesn't happen in a vacuum; the people around the abuser are often complicit (as was the case in my family).

Really appreciate all the support on this thread, thank you.

long he was diagnosed with depression but I think it was a secondary effect of the AS/ASD. It doesn't sound bad, I know what you mean. I think I'm worried it will sound bad that I don't speak to him.

I do have RL support thank you, think the loneliness is coming through from how I used to feel as a kid when I really didn't have support. I shall look into groups though, to see what is out there.

and another thought, maybe contact Womens Aid? It;s got to be far more important for you to try to get some sort of closure on the abuse than to try to figure out why he did it. As a lot of other posters have pointed out there is never an excuse for abuse, concentrate on you now.

I wish DP had a source of support too.

kurious yes I agree with you too that having AS doesn't mean that the person can't be abusive either.

I do think that a lot of parents are fighting to have their dc SN recognised and accepted because iot does make life so hard for them.
But then it tends to paint a very rozy picture of what AS is. The reality is that AS just describes a certain way of the brain working and then within that group, you will have some abusive people and some very gentle ones.

I think my point is not about people who are abusive and using abusive tactics to wards their partner or dcs. IT's about people with AS whose actions feel abusive even though it's coming from a total lack of understanding iyswim. In the latter case, with explanation, these are peole who will try their best to do xxx again.

Icecream, I completely understand the idea that knowing the behaviour is linked with xxx, then you have an explanation about it.
But unfortunately, AS being AS, you can't medicate like you can with bipolar for example. So it's very much a question of 'Now I know and it still doesn't change anything and I still can't do anything about it'.

Strangely enough when I worked out DH has AS, I didn't feel guilty at all. I did feel some relief that I finally had an explanation. More empathy for his struggles. And a bit of map of how to deal with it (and therefore help myself and dc1). But in itself, knowledge didn't change anything.

Which is why I would fully support your decision not to see your DF again At some point, I thought that dc1 would end up in that situation anyway, with very little contact with his DF

I feel compassion for my dad when I look at his life, but I am NC because I know that he is not able to stop abusing me.

I don't think that he wanted to abuse me, but that he is not able to take responsibility for the stuff in his head. This includes the experiences of his own terrible childhood, and the difficulties of unrecognised ASD and co-morbid mental health issues. But truly I think this is the same for any parent who abuses their child, regardless of the cause or contributory factors.

In someways I think my dad's abusiveness was unintentionally moderated by his ASD. He was not capable of manipulation and because his lies, denials and fabrications were so obviously false I observed from a young age that his perception of me was really distorted, and I think this helped me when things were bad to hang onto some sense of self worth.

I wonder if your family dynamic is like mine icecream? I think of my mum as sudo-autistic, because I don't know whether its an emotional adaptation that she has had to make in order to survive with my dad or whether it is because she has autistic traits (or probably actually both!).

Its a muddle.

Hi Have a DF who is probably ASD and a son who definitely is.

I am no contact with DF. Actually not because of him. He actually was a sweet and caring father - but did have limitations due to the ASD and I never felt very connected with him due I think to the ASD and also he was raised in a pretty puritanical religious way which didnt help in emotional awareness but probably did help in that it provided a life with a lot of structure and predictabilty.

NC is due to toxic mother who is narcissistic and mean and scapegoated me all my life. I think quite common for a narcissist to marry an ASD person as they get all the social attention and are not challenged about their behaviour.

I would never have dreamed of trying to get him diagnosed and would have seen no purpose in doing so.

I think the best thing to do is work on you and get support for you. Ive done a lot and going NC has helpd me immeasurably. Stately Homes is a good place. I belong to some other helpful support groups for other issues that I have and they have helped me a lot. The important thing is to deal with your past as you best can -there is a phrase about 'Giving Up Hope of a Better Past' Acceptance is key.And then moving forward to be the best person you can be - growing stretching and being brave. Hope some of that helped.

Maman I guess I feel the label might have been helpful, ditto some focused help for him to cope better (I know of people who have had counselling or music therapy for example).

kurious I feel the same way as you do I think. And my dad had a shit childhood but he then inflicted similar on me. Which hurts.

because his lies, denials and fabrications were so obviously false I observed from a young age that his perception of me was really distorted, and I think this helped me when things were bad to hang onto some sense of self worth.

You may have just helped solve something that's been troubling me, namely how it is that despite having two parents who were each, in their own ways, abusive and neglectful and emotionally absent, I always saw that it was wrong; I never just thought it was normal. Maybe because it was so obvious that he was wrong?

I internalised some of the messages I got from him. But I also argued with him from a young age and protested to my mum and got very upset from the genuine injustice of it all. Which backfired as it just made my dad very very angry.

I wonder if your family dynamic is like mine icecream? I think of my mum as sudo-autistic, because I don't know whether its an emotional adaptation that she has had to make in order to survive with my dad or whether it is because she has autistic traits (or probably actually both!).

Completely the same. I genuinely do not know which it is; I don't think I ever will! But I wish she hadn't just adapted, it hasn't helped anyone...

Mumfun my dad also gained stability from religion, and it gave him a social network he probably wouldn't otherwise have had. I'm actually a regular on the Stately Homes thread but have name changed for this as there's an outside chance I could be recognisable from this thread (probably just paranoia).

Agree about relinquishing hope of a better past - have heard that before, from Irvin D Yalom (therapy guru).

This thread has been a bit of a salve, thanks everyone.

I get where you are coming from icescream. I also felt the injustice of what occurred and railed against it. It made my dad more angry and abusive too.

I think you are strong to walk away from them and to not be complicit. My mum used to say “you will go to the moon kurious” because she saw that I had the resilience and awareness to escape.

We shouldn’t feel guilty about that, because we are not responsible for our parents.

My dad has aspergers (undiagnosed). It is helpful to me to understand that as it bring some peace as to why he is so rubbish at showing interest in our lives. My son has aspergers (diagnosed) and is like a carbon copy of his grandfather. It's funny in a way, when he was born I thought 'don't let him be like my dad' and of course he is. Actually I find it helpful as observing my son helps me understand my Dad better. For example, Dad never ever contacts us, he has never sent a birthday card or even a birthday email to me or any of his grandchildren, though on the rare occasions I email him he sometimes writes back briefly. I used to assume this meant he couldn't give a toss. However my son is the same, he never ever initiates social contact, yet he is very clearly happy to receive it and is full on delighted when a friend contacts him. It's not that he doesn't care, it's that he can't initiate. My son is only 13 and my Dad is in his 70s - and whilst no-one ever challenged Dad we are working on this and lots of other things with my son. My hope for DS is that through knowing himself (and not having a narrative throughout his life that he can't do this stuff because he is 'too clever' or some such guff) and understanding that he does need to work on things he will live his adult life less bewildered and hurt than my Dad (who has had a series of fallings out at work, colleagues who he has never spoken to again etc, and who doesn't seem to interrogate his own role in this situations in any way). Dad did one smart thing in marrying a very emotionally intelligent woman who has spent her life covering for him...

Dad did one smart thing in marrying a very emotionally intelligent woman who has spent her life covering for him...

I think this is not unusual at all for people with AS to marry emotionally intelligent women. I would gather that's because most other women would not be happy to make the effort necessary to have a fulfilled/happy life with them.

I also really think that the time that our fathers were raised is very different from now.
70 years ago, a man who always wanted things his way, didn't talk a lot or was a bit quirky was something accepted and acceptable. It was OK for them to impose their will and expected from their wife to follow. I can see that with my PIL (and yes FIL is also clearly in the spectrum!) and my MIL never challenged his behaviour as such.
What she made sure (thank you MIL!) is that her son would learn 'other rules' on how to be around women/people (eg he has learnt that he is supposed to ring to ask how she is or before turning up at their house) and then she learnt ways to 'get her own ways' where it mattered to her (her own words).
But I know that DH childhood was very 'victorian' in all sense of the term.
and FIL is still living in the 1950s (in his expectations, the way he is doing things etc.. Quite funny sometimes tbh).

Very interesting thread for me!

Hey there clairewitch, I was wondering when you'd spot this thread!

Claire has an incredibly valid point there.

My stepfather also married an emotionally intelligent, but quite 1950s style housewife.
Yes, she 'covered' for him by trying to mend relationships, normalising his bizarre behaviour, validating his 'quirks' and being the social-builder.

Also of course, he was a man, and the head of the household so could do no wrong. It allowed for a toxic relationship in the family. My DM was obviously upset at times by his behaviour, but kept a united front and gave all respect to a man who didn't deserve it from his actions, purely because he was the breadwinner (she worked, actually, but at a quite 'menial' job).

I sometimes wonder if the 1950s male traits - having a study where they are not to be disturbed, or owning a shed to retreat into, or focusing on the newspaper in the morning when the house is in a frenzy of getting to school, or not bothering with social niceties like birthday cards, masked a lot of symptoms.

I think that's a valid point. Disclosure: clairewitch is my lovely sister I do think it's a fine line between covering and enabling though: I think it's no coincidence that dad chose a wife who, let's face it, was never going to challenge him.

Hi Dinah!
What a coincidence that you have an aspie dad as well! :)

I guess what I am trying to say in wider terms is that whilst I agree that an aspie is no more nor less likely to be abusive than anyone else in the population, sometimes knowing about the autism and the fact that the person themselves isn't aware of it is really helpful in putting a different slant on behaviour that could be considered rude or lacking in acre or thought (not full on abuse). In our case for example, in intentionality, my Dad (our dad) is not a wicked or nasty man. I know he loves/d us (he only had girls) in part because he is so much more comfortable with his grandaughter than his grandsons - he adores her. Whilst in a way it is hurtful (to his grandsons) it also reflects that he loved us; I think he finds us as opinionated adults harder than when we were small kids and I do recall him being quite affectionate when we were small. Now, I honestly don't think it occurs to him the way that his actions might be percieved by others. I recall once driving 5 hours to see him when he'd been away for 6 months, I arrived at 8pm and he'd gone to bed. When I reacted irritably and reflected to him that he knew I was half an hour away, couldn't he have stayed up the extra half hour to meet his grandson, he was terribly hurt and couldn't handle my upset at all. He literally had no conecpt that I might be upset. In his world, he was tired so he went to bed. My son does the same - he walks to school with some long suffering friends, I have told him if it is 20 past 8 he must go even if they haven't arrived (after he was late one day). Subsequently on several occasions he has turned tail and walked off on his own at 20 past 8 even when the friends are 20 yards from reaching him. He has no idea how that must seem to them! But if anyone told me that DS is nasty I would absolutely disagree - he wouldn't INTENTIONALLY hurt a fly...but he does hurt people's feelings by accident, all the time.

not lacking in acre - lacking in care...