When will he man up?

[choccybear]

We have been together 8 years, it's been 5 with children. He was a gardener/roofer when we met (ex-actor) and due to having two children in quick succession, our only option childcare wise was for his to retrain as a childminder. We could not afford nursery fees for two in London. He never had a spare penny, and my wage at the time would only have covered one child's nursery fees. His work was not regular, no sick days, weeks with no income etc. Whereas I have a steady job as a teacher.

Anyway, skip a few years, we have recently relocated abroad to an International school, I am a teacher and he is a TA. Our children have full time free schooling now. However he still earns a pittance. I pay for a maid/nanny and all bills including food. Which means I never have spare cash to spend on myself, well I say never, but maybe once a month a get my nails done/buy a dress etc (all on the cheap). Basically, I have had enough of having a husband who can't provide for me. He never pays for a restaurant/bar bill and never says 'thank you' when I do.

Am I being unreasonable to want him to man up, get a career, learn to drive (I do all the driving) and provide for his wife and two children? In addition to this, he drinks heavily, avoids tidying up, cleaning up, organising anything, the list goes on! I feel like he takes me for granted. He is now 43. Old enough to think like a grown up and now shirk his responsibilities, no? If we earned an equal wage, we could go on holidays and basically not be skint a week after payday.

Of course, when I try to discuss this he talks in vague terms of applying for PGCE, post-grad course of some sort etc. next year. But this has been going on for years too.

I want someone to treat me for a change. But also, long term, I really want him to provide for his children as they grow up (still in EYFS) and have a pension or savings for his old age (which let's face, it is only 20 or so years away)

'In addition to this, he drinks heavily, avoids tidying up, cleaning up, organising anything, the list goes on! I feel like he takes me for granted. He is now 43. Old enough to think like a grown up and now shirk his responsibilities, no? If we earned an equal wage, we could go on holidays and basically not be skint a week after payday. '

You are flogging a dead horse with this one.

"I need to address his drinking"

No you do not, that is his responsibility and not yours. He has a drink problem doesn't he.

Why are you together as well given that his wages mainly go on beer?. The man has not changed fundamentally and you have and still continue to carry him along with enabling him too.

What is in this relationship for you now, what needs of yours are being met here by him?.

Is this really what you want to teach your children about relationships because currently you're showing them that this role model of one is acceptable to you.

I know - I am considering an ultimatum. Something along the lines of you have 12 months to show that you have signed up to getting a proper career or leave. We are married and I don't want a divorce, but at the same time, I want to be in an equal partnership

OP you are a saint! I would've left a loooong time ago.

What makes you think the ultimatum will make a difference? He knows and can see how much hard work, time and effort it takes to raise a family, he just chooses not to actively assist/participate!

I think you have been living in hope, and by issuing the ultimatum you are still living in hope!

I only want to pick up one part of the OP if i may,

"He never pays for a restaurant/bar bill and never says 'thank you' when I do."

Is this the norm for a married couple with joint finances? I confess ive never seen any of my friends spouses (once fiscally entangled) of either sex thank them for paying the bill. If i asked my wife to thank me every time I paid for dinner i think she might kick me in the nuts.

Ok well you didn't say he keeps all of his wages to himself.

He actually spends the whole lot on alcohol?

You didn't actually say in your opening post that he spends all his salary on alcohol. That was an important factor that would change most responses on here.

Both adults in a relationship must take responsibility for the household and that includes financial. Seems fine for the woman not to work or to dabble in a few low paid jobs but not OK for a man. Of course he should take financial responsiblity and start trying to earn some money.

I think if this man grew up and actually contributed to family life, I think OP would feel a lot better about the lack of financial contribution. Am I right, OP?

This coupled with the drink problem makes the situation sound like a nightmare.

I think the only way is out. Or more resentment and disappointment.

I would LTB while the kids are still young.

So sorry OP

Another reason why it has come to ultimatum time, is that in the last 12 months I have been diagnosed with significant hearing loss and diverticulosis in the colon and urethra.

So I am worried that if /when these problems get worse that he will be able to provide for me or the children.

I am sick of 'nagging'. Not even these health scares have jumped him into action.

the "ex-actor" is a bit of a red alert. There was an article this week in a broadsheet -maybe times or telegraph - about how men who earn less than their wives are more likely to have affairs. something about re-compensating for de-masculation.

but there was this whole other part about namby pamby artsy type guys who basically want to bum around doing their artsy (not successful) crap and pretend that's their profession ("I'm witing a book" "I'm working on my opus" "I'm wring the next biggest musical") while living off other people.

Key features are:

1. No real commercial success of any kind. No one has produced your play or your film. Your friends buying your work or paying to fund your crap does not count.

1. Your partner has part funded some commercial venture of yours and recovered no money. Producing your show at the Edinburgh fringe. Paying for your acting classes etc.

1. You job earns no money but you enjoy it and that's more important than your partner's inconvenience or your children's welfare. Or your children not being proud of their parents.

"what does your dad do Jonny?"
"Oh he's written 50 books but none have been published. He earns money as a child minder!"

Exactly Selfloathing. He had an excellent schooling, all his friends from his school days are now extremely successful and well off. He chose acting, although never really fully committed. He tried to persuade me that actors don't need agents at one point!

But he didn't faff around acting, he was doing manual graft when OP met and married him (mid 30s), he then did Childminding, and now TA. He does sound like a hard worker, just not in lucrative careers.
He hasn't jumped into action, because he is not ambitious. It is not a trait you can nag people to acquire.

The other stuff sounds dire, but not much point working to fix that if you are never going to be happy with his lack of ambition anyway.

With regards to his career I think you are not being fair. You are expecting him to change into something he never was or promised to be when you met him. He has changed jobs, given up jobs and changed jobs to look after the children and moved with you to another country.

The rest -organising, lack if house wort etc is a big problem. But the even bigger problem is the alcohol which you say you need to address. You can tell him that you are worried and unhappy which his drinking but it is HIS problem and only HE can address it.

Personally I think there are too many problems and things you are unhappy about to fix but then only you can decide what to do next.

People change, they grow and adapt to new circumstances. So for some posters to say: well, this is who you married, you knew he wasn't ambitious etc-sorry, that's just a lame excuse. We're not in our 20s-30s, with no real responsability. We have children, we are getting old, the priorities have changed.
OP, I would be scared too, if I were you. I understand you don't want a high flyer city type, just someone who equally matches your efforts and you can rely on. YANBU.

I would go back to the drawing board and yes, I would issue an ultimatum. he needs to grow up.

It suited you for him to earn less & be at home when the children were little - you are the one moving the goalposts. How easy will it be for someone in their 40s with limited work experience to get a high paying job? Why don't you go for promotions in your career?

If a SAHM said she was expected to thank her DH every time they ate out, there would be a chorus of 'financial abuse' 'LTB' 'family money' etc.

At least this thread shows what it is like from the breadwinner's perspective - not always a bed of roses being the one to go out an earn while the other stays home.

You can't change people - if his lack of earning is a deal breaker, you may need to consider your longer term future. After all, we are always reading about men on here who leave their SAHM wife once the kids are up a bit....

I don't think he has done anything 'wrong' job-wise. He has a full time job, and (for whatever reason) facilitated your career and looked after the DCs. Not everyone is ambitious.

However, the drinking, bad manners, lack of housework, selfishness with money etc is a whole other ball game OP. I would not be happy about any of this!

I know - I am considering an ultimatum. Something along the lines of you have 12 months to show that you have signed up to getting a proper career or leave. We are married and I don't want a divorce, but at the same time, I want to be in an equal partnership.

Why issue an ultimatum about the career and not the drinking, which is the real issue here.

If you subtract the booze, the full time job and the laziness around housework, I could be your husband. Thankfully my husband doesn't resent the fact that I will never in a million years earn anything like the amount that he does. He would be justifiably annoyed though if I was drinking too much and not bringing something to the table, even if it wasn't cash.

I do thank him for meals out, but only if it was his idea and he was "taking" me. Not so much because he was paying because that is family money in our eyes.

In short the lack of ambition is not the problem.

But he was a failed actor/gardener/odd job man when you met him.

What did you expect would happen?

I agree with Kewcumber here and many others.

You are frustrated now with a lot of things that should have been red flags to you many years ago. Forget them. They are not the problems here. They are water under the bridge at this point.

The problem is that he is a drunk who is not engaged in either his own life or the life of the family or your relationship. The solution is to find a way to get out with your children without having to pay him alimony in light of your recent diagnosis. So forget about ultimatums that will just end up dragging out the process. You don't want a drunk learning to drive, or driving the children or yourself.

Fire the maid, get the nanny to do some housework, no more nail jobs or dresses for you, and save for a lawyer. Start looking into different jobs/career tracks for yourself. Your narrative makes it sound as if teaching brings you neither fulfillment nor enough money to make it bearable.

Lots of small children are in nursery or daycare from 7 to 5, or a combo of school and care. If this would be cheaper than a nanny then you need to do this.

Both of your wages should be going into the same pot, he has no excuse for not contributing any of his wages. Herein lies your problem. It's not his job, it's the fact that he isn't paying in his wages. And that he is drinking too much.

Does he have an underlying anxiety that means he drinks and doesn't want to pursue any career developments?

It sounds like you need to sit down and tell him it's unacceptable he isn't putting his wage into the pot. However, once this happens you will have to agree that both of you should have equal spending money from said pot after household bills. Then you can tell him you are concerned about his drinking too. Might feel to him that it is a bit of an onslaught, so maybe deal with one problem at a time.

You are unlikely to see any over night changes though. It could just be that this is the way he wants to live and that you will either have to accept it (I couldn't) or move on. In this case, you need to way up what you love about him vs what you can't live with anymore.

OP. I feel your pain .It is very frustrating to have a partner who could earn more,and ease the family finances but cannot be bothered to try and does not even "compensate" by doing more at home. My DP lost his job a few years ago and had a period of unemployment where I worked every hour I could to keep us afloat
DP eventually got work but at a much lower level than he is qualified for. He seems happy now just to bum along and not look for something better which would improve our financial position. I do think he may have lost confidence. He drinks a lot too.

There is no mention of love - do you still have a good time together? Are intimate? Laugh?

I have a nagging suspicion that really you two could be happier.

What with a housekeeper, a nanny, a parent home from 2.30 til 6 to enjoy the children (bet the children are happy) and a nice life presumably somewhere warm and inexpensive to live if you've got staff.

Perhaps he drinks more because he's a bit bored or knows that you're resetful of him.

He needs a bit more fulfilment for himself - not an insurmountable challenge if you're relationship is happy and loving.

I'm saying this because I'm stepping up my career at the moment after nearly 10 years trying to make it happen in different ways as ive had to be at home for children.

My DH has been nothing but loving and supportive - and I know he's also looking forward to me earning enough money to buy holidays from September (no holidays for 5 years).

So, bottom line - where's the love and affection? All gone because of the resentment?

"but there was this whole other part about namby pamby artsy type guys who basically want to bum around doing their artsy (not successful) crap and pretend that's their profession ("I'm witing a book" "I'm working on my opus" "I'm wring the next biggest musical") while living off other people."

I know dozens of people like that and they're all women!
Like "landscape gardners" or "interior decorators" who have done a few jobs for friends and nothing more, "jewellry makers", "crafters" etc. They all have husbands with full time jobs though.

Thank you allgunsblazing - this is exactly the problem, I expected him to grow up and take on more responsibility with the arrival of children. He will pitch in more when asked, but he has to be asked for everything (e.g. can you run the bath, help tidy up the toys etc.) He has the brains for so much more but he just has no urge to do anything with them. I think the drinking is part of this, as it is quite easy to sit back and have a drink and put everything off. He doesn't drink because he's bored - he drinks because it's an addiction. Maybe there is an underlying anxiety, but what? How do I find out?

A marriage is a partnership forever, but one that has to grow and adapt with the changing circumstances of children and aging. And yes I know it is superficial, but God I would love for someone to take me on holiday, drive me around, buy clothes for me occasionally. It's all one sided. I do all of those things for him. Yes, he was like this when we met, but I naively thought he would find some direction in his life at some point as we grew older. I am waiting for me to calm down and the kids to be in bed so we can have the 'chat'.

You are being very harsh about the career side of things - if you wanted someone to treat you or buy you things you should have chosen someone who showed the ambition to earn enough money to do that. There is nothing at all wrong with being a childminder or TA - two important and difficult jobs and it showed some maturity on his part that he was able to abandon acting and retrain in a job that fit with what you were doing.

On the other hand he is a lazy alcoholic at home. That is definitely an issue and one that's not likely to change unless he sees the issue and deals with it.

he was like this when we met

I'm not denying that there sound like significant problems within your relationship and with his attitude.

But it is grossly unfair to expect that a man you married knowing he wasn't aiming towards a high flying finance career should suddenly find some more drive and ambition.

As if being a TA or a childminder isn't good enough?

If you are worried long term about the family finances then talk to him about that worry. However saying you have 12 months to show that you have signed up to getting a proper career or leave is frankly awful. Imagine a husband saying that to his childminder/TA wife?