"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dystfunctional Families

[Meerka]

It's May 2015, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
March 2015

Dec 14- March 15

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Lol, either this thread has slowed down since the beginning or my DM was right about me.

Welcome Watcha!

pocket, I was reading what you were writing about if you had a parent who was e.g. alcoholic and then changed their ways... I got a lump in my throat, because imagine having someone who once said sorry?
The thing is though, and I've been thinking about this a lot recently - I think unlike a lot of you I gave up on my mother really early in life, like when I was still living at home. I essentially went LC when I still lived there. When I was 15 I met a new friend through a hobby and we became boyfriend and girlfriend and my mother tried to put a stop to it, it culminating in an ultimatum just short of my 16th birthday: split up with him or leave home. I chose to stay and split up with him, but got back together again when I was 17 and had started at uni. I still "lived at home" but spent every weekend at his flat and my weekdays I studied or met friends etc so I was never in the house from 8am till 9pm. I left after my degree and that was it.
When I was 15, when I met this boy, I was your basic Rapunzel - shy to the point of being agoraphobic, couldn't speak on the phone, couldn't use the bus, all due to this massive shyness and anxiety. I think the relationship spurred me on to realise that while I had been dreaming all my young life of leaving home, that if I didn't take myself in hand I would never have the confidence or life skills to leave home. So step by step I did all the things I found scary and got myself to the point where I could function in the world.
I feel though as if on some level I simply papered over the cracks and never really sorted out my head. That's the stuff that bothers me now. The weirdo habits of a daughter of a narcissistic mother - being able to read other people's emotions to a ridiculous degree, never being sure that my own emotions are real, the constant free-ranging guilt about god knows what, the lack of direction... it's all still there but it's so unconnected to my mother as she is now.
And now I feel like I am in this war of attrition with my mother. I've not contacted her for 10 weeks or so, following a visit from her where she let the nastiness show a bit more than usual and I just thought, I can't fucking be bothered with this any more. It wasn't anything big that decided me, it was just the last straw, coming expecting us all to dance attendance on her and anticipate her every emotional response while we were trying to fucking emigrate. Anyway so that was it, I said nothing, drove her to the airport and said goodbye and I thought, I am never speaking to you again. And it was fine in my head, at first. But while my rational self-protecting bit knows it was totally fine to do, the guilt (and the particular thing for me, the thing of feeling myself to be unacceptable and unlovable) is slowly starting to seep in.
Her response has kind of made it worse. It's fairly innocuous but also fairly textbook for when you go NC. We didn't give her our new contact details and I just didn't phone or write. Of course she did not contact me directly or ask any of the family to contact me through FB or anything like that - first she forwarded some mail for us, then a letter from my cousin who is ill, and then last a "new home" card with a note saying "sorry I haven't been in touch, I don't have your new contact details" and it all sounds nice enough if you don't know her, but if she really wanted to contact me she would ask my uncle to message me on Facebook and get my number, and bloody phone it. She knows what is going on and she's trying, I think, to stop it happening without having to acknowledge that anything is wrong. And I would actually really relish a chance to see her get her claws out, to remind me why I'm doing this, to get rid of some of the guilt...

... and in saying that I know what I have to do. I need to start therapy. There is only so far I am ever going to get with this alone, and this wish for some cathartic confrontation with her - well, it might go as I want, and it might not, but going to her to get an emotional need met isn't healthy at all. I need to find my way through the guilt, not get a temporary release from it.

Thanks for reading if you got this far! I just needed to get all that out.

Watcha sorry, we cross posted. If you want to talk, there are a few of us about and I'm happy to listen. (you're right though it is quiet, I had to search for about an hour before I even found the thread when I started posting).

toomuch thank you. Your post resonated with me, my F is a sick son of a bitch but hes stupid enough to leave his mess behind. M a whole different ball game messing with my head.

Hi Watcha

Sorry for what you are have been through. Hope you find the thread supportive.

toomuch
but if she really wanted to contact me she would ask my uncle to message me on Facebook and get my number, and bloody phone it

It's ridiculous isn't it? My mum kept going on behind my back about 'oh I don't if They and family are coming at Christmas'. Well pick up the fucking phone and ask. The family have no idea that I have actually gone LC so not like there is a problem with my reaction if she calls.

The weirdo habits of a daughter of a narcissistic mother
Mine is that I can not accept a compliment as why would anyone say anything nice to me. 'Ooh you've had your haircut. It's really nice.' I say 'I think she cut it too short' or 'it's a bit lopsided' or any other hair related criticism. Ridiculous I know and I expect people probably think I am weird - probably thinking a simple thank you will do!

Yeah theymake my mum does it with other members of the family too, one time one of my Aussie relatives was coming to the UK for a holiday and mentioned in passing to my auntie and thence to my mum that she might drop in at some point if that was OK. My mum was in knots about it for weeks about whether the girl might stay over, whether she should replace all the sheets and towels for the spare bedroom etc. Just bloody ask her! Or ask my auntie! Or just don't worry about it! I almost feel sorry for her when something like this comes up, that crushing lack of confidence, but then I remember how she dealt with that uncertainty on a daily basis by ruling me and my dad so we were hair trigger sensitised to the slightest change in her mood and could smooth everything over for her and I think, nah, I'll save my sympathy for me thank you very much.

I know what you mean about compliments. You can just got "that's really nice of you to say so" which is a bit easier because it's more like praising them back. But yes.

one time one of my Aussie relatives was coming to the UK for a holiday and mentioned in passing to my auntie and thence to my mum that she might drop in at some point if that was OK. My mum was in knots about it for weeks about whether the girl might stay over, whether she should replace all the sheets and towels for the spare bedroom etc. Just bloody ask her! Or ask my auntie! Or just don't worry about it! I almost feel sorry for her when something like this comes up, that crushing lack of confidence, but then I remember how she dealt with that uncertainty on a daily basis by ruling me and my dad so we were hair trigger sensitised to the slightest change in her mood and could smooth everything over for her and I think, nah, I'll save my sympathy for me thank you very much.
My mum used to do this when she lived here (abroad). She'd do it about my cousins coming to stay and then bitch endlessly about them when they'd left, but then complain bitterly about how desperately lonely she was. It's like she wanted the company but couldn't stand it all at the same time. Like you say, I do feel sorry for her but then I think about all she said about ME too ( for instance that I'm lazy, slovenly and stupid, DH is a gold digger after his MIL's money and only married me for that....not like there is masses of money either...)

good They want company, but they only want company from people who'll respect and pander to all their hangups. That would be you and me...

theymake I was just thinking about your mum and the LC and wanting to know if you're coming for Christmas. Although she doesn't know about the LC she knows there's something up so she won't ask directly in case she gets a "no" from you, I bet.

abanico - it's taken me a while to read through the posts on this thread, but I really wanted to send you a virtual hug, because it sounds like you are having a very difficult time. I'm so sorry. It really can, and will, get better - believe me - but it's hard, hard work.

I was concerned that you didn't feel you were making much progress with your counsellor a full year and a half into your work together. If it's the right fit, things should feel an awful lot better by now. Can you try out a few others? Even the most fabulous counsellor can be wrong for you, because you may not gel with their style or personality. I had two who were truly lovely, but wrong for me - one who couldn't see that my problems stemmed from my shitty childhood, and another who could, but thought the solution was just to shrug/laugh it off. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Amazingly, many counsellors have a crap understanding of dysfunctional childhoods and their lasting legacy. Really try and speak to a few others, it could make all the difference. I would certainly think twice about spending another year and a half working with your current counsellor.

Hang in there xx

toomuchtooold please have a huge THANK YOU for an excellent lightbulb moment. What you write about your career, and the Rapunzel articles on the excellent website you link to, are sounding huge, clanging bells with me. I so wish I'd known about this sooner.

Like you, I was a high flier in a prestigious job (which gave my mother major bragging rights) until I was forty (and that was with an enormous amount of self sabotage along the way). Then I thought I cant do this much longer, and took redundancy. For a good five years afterwards I seriously drifted, unable to get work, pay bills, in a downward spiral of procrastination, and self loathing that I was "failing" so badly. I just had no idea what I wanted, or that I deserved anything good at all.

It's literally only in the last year, with a lot of insight and counselling, that I can see what's going on, and things are picking up again. But boy was that hard work. The legacy of the world of shit we grew up with is just everywhere isn't it? I can empathise so strongly with not knowing your "place in the world" - or rather, seeing your justification for existence being your job title.

My poor brother was in a seriously abusive relationship with his first wife for years. My mother still speaks fondly of her - and when challenged about the abuse, says "well, how on earth could she (wife) have respected him when he didn't have a decent job?". Yup - your own son deserves to be driven to the brink of suicide cos he doesn't have a brass plaque on the door of his office.

And yes, yes to stress bringing you clarity. I had a brush with cancer last year, and wow did things fall into place when I started to put myself first for my own health and peace of mind.

So ... Many thanks, lovey. And yes - work out what matters to YOU. I hope you get a job you just love.

Greenleaf xx

Welcome watcha, come on in, nobody needs an invitation to post here :) So sorry you got these awful texts. How did your appointment at the police station go today? I hope they are able to take strong action.

toomuch I think you would do very well with therapy, with a counsellor who understands toxic mothers/families and can help you re-parent yourself to give yourself the love and support that have been lacking from your upbringing. I would also recommend having a read of Alice Miller's work if you haven't already. "The Drama of Being a Child" is a good place to start. Her books can be a bit hard going as they were originally written for mental health professionals in mind, but they are worth sticking with.

theymake I also get that with the compliments. I have worked on this a lot and now I'm just able to say "Thank you! The hairdresser was great/I found it in Matalan/I had these nails done at X salon" or whatever. What I still struggle with is when someone lets me down or annoys me, my immediate instinct is to say "Don't worry about it" or "It doesn't matter" - but it DOES bloody matter, because I matter! There is still that overwhelming idea that my needs should come at the bottom of the pile, under not only those of my family, but even random strangers in the street or the person who does a shit job that I've paid them for.

toomuch She has no idea about the LC! Because of distance and the DC activities/jobs often meant a full on weekend so easy to limit visits without it being obvious. We have visited every Christmas for years so reason why this would be different - expect the same thing happens every year to be honest but this year I have been later in mentioning it. Have invited the whole family. Done my bit and no one is coming. Result! A couple of times we have a hosted Christmas and she has manged to ruin it.

pocket I feel ridiculous but I did need a lesson in how to accept a compliment! At least I have something to say next time. I have always bent over backwards to make sure I do not let people down and yes I am at the bottom of the pile when it comes to other people's commitments

Hi theymake and pocket, thanks for the welcome. I had police appointment today but made the decision not to take it further. Not to protect him but to protect myself, my mental wellbeing and my dds (lp). Reading through these threads has made me realise he was never a "father" and that was what I was grieving for, the idea of what he should be rather than who he actually was. I'm awaiting what will be the outcome from that.

DM I have had NC for over a week after talking with her about this naturally turned into pointing out everything wrong with me but this thread has opened my eyes to so many things. The refusing to add me on fb as she doesn't want to know about our personal lives (but has added my DSis and DB then telling me all about what they have put on fb), saying she's too ill to travel other side of town to see us when she's managed to travel to another city where Sis lives & even the cross country journey from their caravan on her own, my self sufficient well-behaved kids are too much but she can look after a 2 year old for the weekend.

Argh, I'm ranting . It's like the blinkers have been taken off and I'm not prepared to have my life controlled, be belittled or made to feel stupid anymore. I have an appointment tomorrow for accessing counselling but I'm feeling positive and, although I wish all your lives had been different, it is because I no longer feel that I deserved it or it was my fault . Sod it, have some and too, you all deserve it.

Watcha I can't judge and I don't know how I would behave in your situation. Are you happy with the outcome or have you been pressurized into agreeing with the police? As long as it is your decision and only you can know that

My dad worked away a lot when I was younger and I created this image of him. Once he came home for good he slowly changed. My DH often says he is more judgmental and worse in general than my mum.

I understand it is upsetting to see others on FB. I moved away before I had the DC and once FB came along they never bothered with it, Now my DN has moved away temporarily they are falling over themselves to try and sort out a FB account to stay in touch. Makes my blood boil.

My turn to rant.

theymake the officer I spoke to was very in depth in making sure I wasn't pressured by police or anyone else, he has a record.

Just checking!

pocketsaviour thanks for the tip - now reading one of Alice Miller's books.

theymake ah OK it's just standard grumbling! They do like to feel hard done by don't they?

greenleaf thanks for your reply. Everything you're saying chimes with me. I knew I was in the wrong career, looking at people around me who loved what they were doing and I knew I should be doing something else but how do you figure it out when you're used to denying all your own feelings? Have you found a new career now?

Hello me again.

I had a bit of a eureka moment this morning. I had this friend, sorry, "friend". We came to know each other because we were in a university LGBT society together. I became the president (I'm in serious danger of outing myself here, oh well, that's fine) and I think she was the Women's Officer at the time, maybe not but she was very active in the group. We were two of the relatively few women in the group, and part of the small band of postgrads and locally-living undergrads who were around all year including the long vacations and that's when we became friends. I enjoyed hanging around with her. She was really funny and interesting, really really intelligent. I hated the fact though that she could be really vicious about people who didn't live up to her rigorous standards of living the righteous leftwing lifestyle and would just cut people out of her life but to be honest I didn't really stick up for anyone until she did it to me. What kicked it off was one time, one Friday - there was a group of us who went swimming together on Friday afternoons. I'd been for a job interview and got knocked back that week, and she said this thing - "toomuch wants to be a corporate whore, but she's more of a failed corporate whore" Jesus, I can't imagine much that would have hurt worse at that point, me skint and 2 and a half years into a PhD and just wanting to get some security and a normal life. And then this from a supposed friend. I just walked away, I got in the pool, at the end she said "are you coming?" and I was like "no, I'll just stay and do some more lengths." And that was it. And actually when I think back I don't think we really spoke again at all after that. I did try, I had just started going out with someone - now DH - and I was trying, as these were my BF and my friend who I spent a lot of time with, to get them to meet. We emailed back and forth and eventually nailed it down to a Friday night. She was like "actually my stepdaughter is planning to go to a thing at the observatory, but it depends if it's cloudy or not, so I could come if it's cloudy" and I was like look, you are a good friend, I want you to meet my boyfriend, but I don't want to hang around in a restaurant checking to see if it's cloudy or not, so why don't you give me a shout when you have some time you can definitely come and meet us?" And that's the last time I ever heard from her for about 5 years. I remember at the time just the main emotion being shame that that was my best friend so called, I felt like what kind of pathetic failure of a human being must I be if my closest friend is someone who can't even be bothered to meet my boyfriend? Why am I so shit that I don't have friends who like me? That's what I felt like.
So that was me dropped. And even though I'd seen her do it to other people, and I'd seen her do it to a mutual friend who actually spelled it out to me, this is what she does with people - I still blamed myself and looked for reasons. My lifestyle, woefully inadequate in the whole leftwing alternative queer area? But she had friends who were straight, friends who worked for big companies - was I not special enough to be excused my industry job and my boyfriend? [God I cannot believe I was thinking like that]. I online stalked her. I just wanted to understand. I ended up making contact with her again and we were briefly friends till she very sharply corrected me on an online forum and I told her to get to fuck. We still have mutual friends and I've always been a bit on the edge of that circle of friends because something bad went down between us and they prefer her. Why did I fucking care? Why do I care? Why am I still wasting my time with anyone who prefers her? She was awful! Till today, I still retained a feeling of shame that I didn't handle that friendship well and that it's put me on the edges of that circle of friends, like I would be a failure at friendship. It's a sore point with me (what isn't) that I feel like a failure as regards friends, I'm not good at having them. We've moved around a lot so it's hard to keep in contact with people. And then also, I find people a strain because I often worry that I'm saying the wrong thing etc, typical hypervigilance. But also - I guess my childhood has somewhat blinded me to people behaving like total arseholes and that's why I've wasted time being friends with people like her! Aargh. Why did I not see all that. I feel like today, the insight has taken away all this shame and I am really fucking pleased with myself. I have also contacted a therapist, first step, I am actually going to do it!

The worst thing about (sorry, still ranting) is that the corporate whore comment, it was just off the top of her head, she didn't even mean it really. It was classic narcissist - they've no idea what will hurt you because they just don't think about it. And then 5 years later when we were talking again - and then we very much weren't, when I told her to fuck off - I brought it up and she was like "that was 5 years ago, I can't believe you haven't moved on" and I felt a bit pathetic but what the fuck! It was a horrible thing to say! It was almost the last thing you ever said to me! I was fucking gaslighted and I never even saw it.

Well done on your Eureka moment toomuch! very insighful post. oooooh, did you contact my therpaist guy? Are you going to have some sessions with him? I do hope so, he's so lovely and I found him a great help. Really excited for you if it's him!

Goodto I didn't, I ended up going with another rec who cost half as much. Sorry! I do really appreciate the rec from you though and if this one doesn't work out I'll probably try him next.

He is expensive, I'll agree with that. Good, but expensive and not the only good therapist in the world. I hope you find your therapist really helpful xxx

toomuch well done

Help me. I don't think me and dp are going to last much longer, and I have cut my parents off because they were emotionally abuse, now I can see myself going back to them because I have no one else. Dp is useless with dd when she's upset, it's always left to me to soothe her and if I ask him for help he ends up yelling slamming a door, because his way of helping is taking dd to the sofa where he can lie down fall asleep, I told him repeatedly I don't want her on the sofa because of risk of sids, and anything could happen if he falls asleep which he does, it's selfish to take her there because he's tired, I don't fall asleep when I'm trying to settle her. It really angers me and it's the same argument all the time, i can't cope with his selfish attitude and feel like I'm only with him because he's dds dad and he pays the bills, I know that's bad but I don't love him anymore because I can't rely on him for anything emotionally either, all he does is throw the I look after you financially card at me. He just wants all the cuteness of dd and not bother with the hard bits. I've got no friends no confidence no self esteem nothing just me and dd, I don't know what to do but either way someone is hurting me wether it's my parents or dp

No that wrong I do love him but I don't love how he doesn't actually help me when I'm exhausted, I don't love how him helping me is taking dd to the sofa. I can't rely on him emotionally because he shouts at me when I'm upset from having to argue over why dd shouldn't be on the sofa, instead of just not taking her there anymore he just refuses to help then and hands her back crying. I'm angry that I do it all and he does none of the hard bits. He thinks working is all he needs to do because without money we couldn't live in this house and have the bills paid etc. I hate how I can't ask for help without it ending up with us fighting and having to settle dd myself anyway. I feel dragged down sorry for the moan