"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dystfunctional Families

[Meerka]

It's May 2015, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
March 2015

Dec 14- March 15

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

HI Pretty

"I dont know what i want honestly at the moment I just want to be with my dd but they say im using her as a pawn, I know it sounds unreasonable but I just want to concentrate on me, my dp and dd. I dont feel like i owe them anything but do feel guilty. Im constantly being hassled by people particualy my mum my dad my aunty to see dd"

You are NOT using your DD as a pawn but they want to do so. They want to use your child to get back at you and they will do so given any opportunity. Ignore all these people and their associated flying monkeys i.e. the aunt in all this. Block their numbers from your phone so they cannot keep on at you. Keep ignoring their demands; they have and will never act in your best interests here. They passed her around like a parcel initially and will continue to do so as well given the opportunity.

Your parents were not good parents to you, they are also crap grandparent figures to your child also because they keep on at you, her mother.

Its not you, its them. Your family of origin's behaviours now is all typical from people who are emotionally dysfunctional. You yourself grew up within an emotionally dysfunctional family.

I think if you've grown up in a dysfunctional family where your emotional needs were neglected, you (I) have the habit of trying (too) hard to see the other side of the argument and be accommodating. One of the biggies is feeling like you should facilitate a relationship between grandchildren and grandparents. It’s almost as if, although you know intellectually that your parents are emotionally abusive, you don’t feel you have the right to act on that knowledge. But you’re totally justified in using your knowledge of them to decide to limit their contact with your DD, both for her sake but also very much for your own, because they will try to use her to influence you as she gets older. They’ll make heroic efforts to make themselves liked by your DD so that you’re obliged to stay in contact even if they’re being horrible to you.
I didn’t read properly at the start and didn’t realise your DD is only 11 weeks old. Congratulations! I think when you have a baby it’s a real crisis point if you come from a dysfunctional family, specially as all and sundry will be going on to you about how much of a help your mother is etc etc just at the time when you could use some actual help! On the other hand, what I found very comforting as my kids became toddlers was that I could think back to my own early childhood and realise that it really was quite fucked up. I would never treat my kids the way my mother treated me.

Toomuch my mother was a teacher which is what I have ended up doing. My sister wanted to be a hairdresser but that would have been shameful for my mother to admit that her daughter was "only a hairdresser"
I'm in my fifties now and stuck in a small town in rural Scotland. My salary is good for this area, so I couldn't afford to give it up and even if I did retrain, I couldn't afford to move elsewhere as there wouldn't be any suitable jobs around here.
Thanks for the suggestions though.

Meer I text her maybe once a week and see her around once a month. There were times during my separation when she honestly spoke to me like I was 6 years old. I felt so alone and got absolutely no support from her. I was alone in my new house while she was inviting XH round for dinner and out for meals etc etc. I should have gone NC then I guess

OnceAMeer How long have you been LC/NC for? I've always wanted to fix things rather than give up on them but I realise this is something I can't fix

665 I feel like I'm not going to achieve anything by going LC either, I'd just be doing it so dd knows her grandparents, and I think I would end up being hurt in the process because they don't respect my parenting decisions either

Attila you are right and I know that's what I need to do, I know I will just feel worse the longer I maintain contact, I don't know what I'm scared of by just going NC but somethings still stopping me even though I know it's the right thing to do

Toomuch me and dp have discussed this and realised if they cant respect me now it will only get worse as dd gets older and they undermine me in front of her, I don't ever want dd to feel how I felt then or now

I'm really glad I was pointed to this forum, it's nice to be able to relate to people with similar experiences and have somewhere to get support

I dont know what i want honestly at the moment I just want to be with my dd but they say im using her as a pawn, I know it sounds unreasonable but I just want to concentrate on me, my dp and dd.

You know this is entirely reasonable and normal, aye?

it really is.

Agreed with everyone else. This is YOUR time. Tehy are making her into a pawn, not you. In fact, you are wise and sensible to step back from them. Perhaps answer your aunt (whom you're not even close to) that at the moment it's difficult and you'll text them in the future when things are easier. it's nice for normal grandparents and aunts to visit and have a relationship ... But it's the duty of the parent to protect that little baby from the shit that they themselves went though, and these peoples are starting in on you with headgames already.

Stand your ground.

prettyknackered it's kind of complex to answer how long have I been NC/LC for

my adoptive father: I tried desperately for about 15 - 20 years to have a relationship with him. The effort was all from my side. Was never allowed there for xmas or anything else. There is of course a very great deal more to the story ... Now, about 30 years on from when I was a teen, I send him the largest, warmest xmas and birthday card I can find with a sardonic humour and ignore him the rest of the time. My and the children's life is much better without him :(

Other NC? When I was 21 I went NC with biological mother for 5 years when she had her hands round my neck shaking me. Then she denied it ever happened and expected me to apologise abjectly. The NC stopped after about 5 years partly for the sake of seeing my half-sisters, but I never trusted her or told her anything about my life after that. It wasn't hard; she was .. ahem ... self absorbed.

I am NC with one half - sister for 3 years now. Our mutual mother died and I -think- that she is so utterly traumatised by that upbringing that she's just transferred all the hate and anger onto me. I'm 15 years older than her and look like our mother :( She sent me a series of extraordinary mails a year or so after our mother's death. It hurts and puzzles me that she poured out this unrecognisably weird version of events in the hate mails. These events that have external written proof that they didn't happen the way she thinks they did. She built an entire case on these non-existent events, and when upset she goes on the attack non-stop. After 6 months it was too much, I couldn't take any more from her and went NC.

I really, really hope that one day she gets herself some help; those letters were shocking and very sad. Frankly I'm worried about her - but I'm also not stepping back into that fire.

All these NCs hurt. You don't stop loving people even when you step away. All of the NCs were last ditch really. I've reached the view that in the end, you can either carry on being the whipping boy for selfish or mentally unwell people, or you can choose eventually to step back and to protect yourself, as long as you don't leave it too late. I believe that protecting yourself and your dependants is the right thing to do.

"Beyond a wholesome discipline,
be gentle with yourself.

You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
..............................

...............
and whatever your labors and aspirations,
in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul"

I take that to mean that you have a right to your life too, as do I. Not at the expense of others, but you are just as valuable as the next person, and it's right to ensure your life is endurable and not dragged down by other people with their own agendas.

Ive rambled on a bit here, musing. Thanks for listening and I hope somewhere in all that there was something useful!

Thanks for all the supportive posts. Struggling to keep up with all the posts in between...

Attila I don't need them in my day to day life, you're right. I make allowances for their behaviour all the time. Truthfully, they've only added stress to what's going on. When I speak to my mother I'm on eggshells in case an argument starts. There's always a comment made at some point. It's a case of whether it's one I can let slide or not. More often than not I let it slide. I've made a list and actually on paper I can see it's got a lot worse since the divorce.

I've kept quiet, had no response to my email to her, but some calls and a message saying she's worried about me and can I please get in touch. I can't see how she can wriggle out of what she said to me though. And that she's kept in touch with stbx and tries to justify is possibly worse after everything that's gone on. The whole thing is making me feel really anxious so I'm going to ignore them for now as I can't take what she's said and done.

And no, toomuch my dad makes no effort whatsoever. Because I was the one to move away - against their wishes - it's always been put to me that I'm the one who has to put in the effort.

greenleaf I don't doubt I did the right thing. In the same way that I'd never send the kids to stay with them to appease her. It's just I thought low contact was just about bearable and it's kind of blown in my face. RL support is not big but I'm having counselling/therapy.

Interesting to hear the difference NC made to you as opposed to low contact, 665

OnceAMeer

OnceAMeer Thank You for sharing, you've been through a lot and I can definitely relate to desperately wanting to have a relationship but it being all one sided. Your mum shook you by the neck and your half-sister turns on you, I can only imagine how hard that must have been for you, it's horrible when a feud with one person becomes everyone's feud, when you just need someone to support you. I can see how NC is necessary to protect yourself. It's sad that people can't realise the hurt they've caused and that NC becomes the only option in order to look after ourselves. Maybe I am naive but when I came to this forum I was surprised to see how so many of us come from dysfunctional families and how long this thread has actually been going for

yes .... there are quite a lot of people from toxic backgrounds I think.

Not everyone reads Mumsnet and not everyone who reads, posts. I think we are the tip of the iceberg. But I also think that with more emotional awareness generally, we are slowly improving a bit.

adorably

In the same way that I'd never send the kids to stay with them to appease her.

I made that mistake (and also to save on holiday clubs). I ashamed to say I did it twice in the same year but never again. Never did it again - my DC couldn't understand why the world revolved around their cousin as well as my DS being constantly told he was naughty. Of course as child of golden child we all know why but how do you explain that to children.

Never sent them away again - money isn't everything.

Because I was the one to move away - against their wishes - it's always been put to me that I'm the one who has to put in the effort. I am in this situation and it feels like I am being constantly punished for this. Apparently it's my fault the DC were funny around them because I did not take the DC to visit enough. Nothing to stop them coming to visit but it's not their fault for not visiting

I think if you've grown up in a dysfunctional family where your emotional needs were neglected, you (I) have the habit of trying (too) hard to see the other side of the argument and be accommodating. One of the biggies is feeling like you should facilitate a relationship between grandchildren and grandparents.

I love my DC so much that I seriously thought that no one would start playing favourites with them. What was I thinking?! They did it to me so why wouldn't they do it to the grandchildren - just was not thinking logically. I expect it may have come from my DD being the first grandchild so for a few years there was no one else for them to favour and I got lulled into a false sense of security.

Ugh I think I have done something stupid. I saw my counsellor today for my first proper session of ongoing counselling and we talked about my childhood and relationship with my parents. She said that I had one parent that treated me like an adult from a very early age (my mother) and another that treats me like a child, even now (father). We have been no contact (mostly) since the incident I described a few pages back but my mum has been constantly messaging me acting like nothing happened. I told my therapist that I hadn't spelled out to them exactly why I am so upset and I have cut contact and she asked me why and what I am afraid of. I said I was afraid of their reaction and she said I needed to start being an adult.

When I got home I sent a message to my mum explaining why I'm upset (ranting and raving in my house and threatening behaviour in front of my DC. Past abusive behaviour at very vulnerable times in my life). She reacted exactly as I predicted, pretending it didn't happen, telling her I have upset them and they don't deserve to be spoken to in this way etc. I just don't know what I want now. I was hoping there was a relationship to salvage but the truth is they will never change and will always emotionally blackmail and belittle me. I'm so sad for my DC. I didn't have any relationship with my extended family growing up thanks to them and now it looks as though this will happen for them. I know things are better this way but I feel so sad.

I have been reading everyone else's posts and I'm sorry for what you are all going through

Tired I don't think it was stupid to send the mail (I know Attila will disagree with me though!) I understand that urge on your part to feel like you've given them every chance, because you're still in that mindset of "If only they could UNDERSTAND how they've hurt me, they would change!"

Sadly, it's not the case. You've laid it on the line (for probably multiple times) exactly what she's done to upset you, and she's denied it, minimised it, and blamed you for her behaviour. Because that's what these people do.

Have you had enough now, have you seen enough, to decide on NC as the way forward for you?

tired ... it -is- hard on your DC, but the tragedy starts with your parents being like this. Given that very sad situation, you have to do the best you can to protect them in it. Which you are doing, by protecting yourself; their treatment of you would probably extend to them and most of all - they should not see their mother being treated like this.

Sometimes some parents seem to have children just so they can use them as targets throughout their lives.

-

I'm a little surprised your therapist told you that you needed to start being an adult. Personally I think you have to send (or write a non-sent letter) when YOU are ready. There's being gently pushed beyond your comfort zone, but there's also being pushed too far before you're ready. It might be worth weighing up what the therapist says next time, writing down the pros and cons of their advice and sleeping on it before making your own decision.

I have pocket. There is no reasoning with them, they will never be at fault and I will always be the bad person in their eyes. What a ridiculous situation. I just wish I could stop feeling so sad and afraid of the future shitstorms they will try to create :(

Thanks Once. I think I may have been a little too brave and I don't think she necessarily wanted me to do it now. I think I just came back feeling a little better about things and probably took what she said a little too literally. I will definitely think on the session for longer next week.

Tired

I read your previous post on them as well on this thread.

Your parents really take the cake don't they; I have read many, many examples of toxic parents on here and these two are absolutely evil and toxic.

It would do you and your children a huge service if you were to go no contact with them. They do not bring anything at all positive into your lives. Such people as well continue not to apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

Like many adult children of such people you are mired in FOG (fear, obligation and guilt).

Are you comfortable with your therapist to date; I do realise it was your first session. If your therapist has any bias at all about keeping families together I would find another person to work with. These people are like shoes, you need to find someone who fits in with your approach.

If your dad did take his life it would not be down to you or be any of your doing. Such abusive men actually threaten suicide to further bring their chosen victim (in this case you) further into line; its a power and control mechanism. He uses that against you because he can and it works as a threat.

There is no relationship here that is worth saving, let alone a relationship to salvage. Their behaviours are truly reprehensible. It would do you as well as your children a huge service to stay well away from these people. They were not good parents to you, they are and will not be good grandparent figures to your children either.

About the whole grandparent thing:

I think if a parent has acknowledged their bad behaviour to you, and accepted the blame for it, and tried to make an honest and sincere apology, then you can consider letting them into your DC's world.

For example, say your mum or dad was an alcoholic, and your childhood was totally chaotic and filled with their violent mood swings and neglect while they were sleeping off yet another bottle. But they had since got sober, going to AA or similar support group, and had apologised for all that happened, and had been sober for some few years. That sort of situation, I think it's perfectly reasonable to give them a chance.

But parents like ours, who never admit their own faults or even that anything happened at all? Fuck those people. They will never, ever be safe to have contact with your children. Because they honestly profess that their behaviour was totally justified, and they will end up treating their grandchildren the same. If they are still having this effect on you (us) as an adult, how will a little defenceless child be able to protect themselves?

The reason I say about alcoholism is this is pretty much what happened with my Grandpa. He was a violent, bullying drunk to my mum, her sister, and my Grandma. But then he stopped drinking - not sure why, my mum told me he had got an ulcer but I don't think that would stop an alcoholic drinking... Maybe he just hit rock bottom. And he sobered up, and my uncle (their youngest) never saw him drunk. And he was the best Grandpa to me ever. I had no idea there was all this back story until he died when I was 17 and my mum basically told me all about how he used to beat her, in between his death and the funeral. In retrospect I think she didn't want me to mourn for him, and I now realise that was an unkind thing to do to me. When my H died I was basically like "Ding dong the witch is dead" but I didn't tell my son "actually your dad was a twat so dry those tears" - why would I?

We were separated by the way. I didn't kill him or anything came close to doinging him over the head with a frying pan a few times

I can indeed see and understand why you sent that e-mail tired but pocket is right in that I would never readily advocate such a course of action. The contents of same are simply used against you no matter how nicely worded or reasonable it is. They see it simply as an attack on them and react accordingly; it gives them convenient ammo to lob at you.

I also wonder how good your therapist actually is with regards to dealing with such toxic families.

Protect your children tired from your abusive parents; they will thank you in the long run for doing that.

Thank you so much Atilla and pocket. I'm sorry that you too have been through this. I have now taken away the last way of contacting me by blocking her on the evil Facebook. All she has now is writing letters but I don't have to open them. My words have definitely been used as ammo. Grrrr.

I am definitely suffering from the FOG. I need to work on that (and I think that is probably where my therapist is going with the behaving like an adult thing). She said I need to focus on my immediate family (DH and DC) and stop being the little child influenced by my parents. I'm not sure how it is going to work out yet but we have only had the one session so I will give it a chance. It is quite difficult to find therapists where I am. This is private and I still had to wait 6 weeks for an appointment.

I am totally convinced I need to protect the DC. I'm just dreading the day when they are older and I have to explain all of this to them. I feel like my parents have already tried to screw up the future for them.

I was getting a lot of FOG before I cut my mum off, when I was trying to manage with LC. And immediately after going NC I was a bit terrified. But it's amazing how that FOG lifts when there's nobody spewing it out at you.

Hi all, I've not started thread of my own or been referred so I hope it's OK to join. I had a very public breakdown recently because of parents current/historical abuse. My parents split 20 years ago, my dad recently sent me some explicitly sexual texts, DM decides it's my fault as I don't have enough hobbies. I read first 20 pages but still in the mindset it was me.

I've gone NC with both btw now

pocket I'm glad to hear the FOG lifts. I want it to lift soon so I can look forward to the birth of my baby without this black cloud over me.

Welcome Watcha. I'm sorry that your parents have brought you here but you will find lots of support

Thank you Tired, I have an appointment at police station tomorrow to make a report. I feel like I'm stuck doing the dirt work for everyone else