"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dystfunctional Families

[Meerka]

It's May 2015, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
March 2015

Dec 14- March 15

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hello Mantra (I don't want to call you Rubbish, it sounds rude somehow :)) I love your idea for a Moonpig card. Your mum sounds soooo awful. Mine ticked about 20 off that list of narcissistic mothers, but yours sounds like an absolute cunt, and that's an insult to cunts.
Hope you are doing OK today. Much love and to everyone posting here.

So mum's just kicked off about something stupid. Although I feel like it's been building for a while, so I kept my distance although that may have made her worse.....I remained calm throughout and didn't retaliate just didn't acknowledge her drama. She seems obsessed with me being depressed and is sure I am now. Still think I'm part of the problem. She goes on about how it used to be and she wants that back. When I was a teen mum and had no one else and was too scared to say no to her so she got what she wanted all the time? No thanks. Just feel a bit flat now. I really want no contact but just pulling away made her kick off and she's got a lot of flying monkeys. Just about to read through posts. Sorry for being rude yesterday and not replying to any xxx

Mum2mum I stopped spending Christmas with mine years ago and was guilt tripped until my brother had kids. But it was so worth it, so glad we did. Want my kids memories of Christmas to be happy ones which I think they will be now. Just make new traditions and make it happy and sure the kids won't be sad about it xxx

Frith2013 my mum does similar. Everything positive is from her negative from my dad. That sounds like such an exhausting visit. Can take so long to pick yourself up from it as well. Xxx

Wow adorably. I'm so sorry you've been through all this and your mother is trying to make you be the bad guy in it all. She will never see sense though. You can argue till your blue in the face and be so logical and reasonable but they won't take it in and you'll go round in circles forever. She sounds extremely nasty and delusional. I also don't get to speak to my dad or siblings unless it's through her so understand how hard that can be. Although I sadly feel no bond to them just guilt that my kids should have a relationship with them. A letter sounds like a good idea, especially typed so she can't tell. But bloody nerve-wracking wondering if he's got it or she has. I'm so sorry you are dealing with a this. Lots of love your way xxx

I haven't posted here for months but had a bit of a revelation about myself this afternoon and I need to leave it here to get it out of myself...

I have realised that my whole life I have been told by my DM (intentionally or otherwise) that my worth as a person is based on how I look - namely not being fat. That is the first observation she makes about anyone, whether they are fat or thin, and has caused me to have an eating disorder and terrible self esteem.

I have also been told that sex etc is completely natural and nothing to be ashamed of but on the other hand, was punished, abused, called a slut and gone NC with for months / years by DM when I flirted and kissed a boy.

So first of all I have this pressure to be thin and attractive to fit in with this idea that what I look like is the most important thing but at the same time, any attempts I had as a child to make myself feel or look better with make up, innocent flirting with a boy etc - anything like that - were mocked and punished. I was told I should be one thing but then laughed at and humiliated for trying.

This was replicated at school where I was really bullied and also by other adults in my family who would make fun of my crude attempts to try to look presentable and fit in with the thin and pretty girls.

I can see as an adult and a parent myself how damaging that was at an early age and the effect it has had on my whole life. Even affecting my perception of how good a mother I am!

DC is 5 months old and I need to lose 2 stone to be back to my pre pregnancy weight, which was overweight and about a stone heavier than I should have been anyway. I think about it about 10 times per day, every day. I feel like I am not as good as other mothers as I am fat and completely unglamorous. I feel like my DC is going to be ashamed of me when they are of school age and I drop them off. I will be the old and fat mother and their friends will make fun of them.

I just needed to leave this somewhere.

I hope everyone is ok.

I should add that I was 15 when the flirting / kissing happened and it was instigated by the boy. Not that it made a difference to DM!

rubbishmantra thank you for your kind words and support. Must say i love, love, love the idea of that Paris street sign on a card to your dear old Ma. Subtle and effective . Hope you're doing ok xx

Wow adorably your mother is a toxic piece of work. You deserve nothing bur praise and support for getting yourself and your children away from an abusive man. That takes real strength - and it sounds like you have that in abundance. It also sounds like you have real insight into your mother's behaviour which can only be a good thing. I'm aghast she thinks you should put up with rape and emotional abuse for the sake of keeping a family together. Really - no words. You say you feel she'd rather you were in bits on the floor than doing well - I can so relate to that - and I fear it's true. These women are monsters.

As far as feeling guilty about your father and sister goes, a therapist once told me that those feelings of guilt are conditioned in us from the year dot. We're trained to put everyone else's welfare above our own, and feel guilty if we're not keeping these other people happy. It's an old, automatic response that probably served us well as little kids, but isn't helping us as adults. I think that makes a lot of sense. There's no need to feel guilty - you matter, and these people haven't protected you. You need to put yourself first (that was a novel concept for me).

This is so tricky though isn't it? If you feel the need to try and keep in touch, I second the idea of writing your Dad a letter, and putting it in the snail mail with a typewritten address if he's not good with computers. (Totally get what you say about having any contact with other members of the family mediated through dear old Mum). Lay out in clear words, in black and white, that you won't tolerate your Mums behaviour, and see if you can work out a way to keep in touch with him. Be warned though - I always thought my Dad, intelligent man that he is, would see sense when I explained things to him. But he didn't, and it was nasty, because men like him have big old problems of their own if they stick to women like our mothers. Wifey comes first I'm afraid.

The very best of luck to you, clever lady, and lots of love xx

Hi Gollum - here's hoping the revelation you've had today helps you to change the way you think about yourself. Sometimes we need to do a bit of good parenting on ourselves. Try some good self-talk (as if you were being kind to your own child, the 'little' you) to override the negative things you tell yourself. That negative voice belongs to your mother.

You DCs will not hate you or be ashamed. Because you will be showing them self respect and hopefully how to be comfortable with who they are. You'll do it for your Dcs. So do it for you too.

If you're uncomfortable with your weight, I find the best way to lose some of it is to eat what you like, just have half slightly less of it, and walk an extra few hundred yards, run upstairs, put on music and dance with the dcs before tea etc. but that is to make you feel better.

gollumsprecious I couldn't read and run. Have a big hug. I can relate so much to what you say. My mother still insists on buying me clothes that are one or two sizes too big for me. Because, you know, I'm 'fat' (except I'm not - not even remotely). Still - from her point of view it has the desired effect, which is making me self conscious, and ashamed, and doubting myself. (I'm 49 by the way). 'Twas ever thus, and I suspect that's the same for you.

It was a real revelation to me in the last few years to realise that most people aren't giving me marks out of ten. Most people aren't bothered about what I look like, or, you know, actually think I'm rather lovely . And the ones that are sizing me up, aren't really worth worrying about. You can't change them, so why engage with them.

Have to say the sex shaming stuff rang rather loud, clanging bells. When I was seventeen I had a lovely boyfriend I had a sexual relationship with. I wrote about it in my diary, and one day coming home from college, my mother said she'd seen my diary, and my father would be having words later, because he was so angry. Weird isn't it? The rational response would have been - I'm over the age of consent, I'm in a loving relationship, and why the hell are you reading my private diary?! That's outrageous! But instead I was ashamed and humiliated. These people really fuck you up don't they?

Hope you're doing ok gollumsprecious.

Lots of love coming your way xx

My mother was totally unashamed about reading my diary too

Thank you happybubble and greenleaf for your kind words and I'm so sorry things are difficult for you too.

My difficulties with her aren't new. Delusional and toxic she is. She's always seemed to see parenting me as a power struggle, me growing up as something I do against her. As for my divorce there's no empathy either, she's taking it incredibly personally and seems to feel threatened. It's very weird. She says and does these things when actually she has no real idea how I feel in the first place. This is probably a new low though. I've sent her a neutral two liner saying in view of what she says I can't do Skypes and phone calls with her, and that the children will call her if/when they want. I have to wait and see what happens now. Not doubt a flurry of calls and emails ... I'll draft a letter at the weekend and tell my aunt. I have a counselling appt next week thankfully.

I'm at a point where I've realised I've got to look after myself and my feelings a lot more. I also need to protect myself at the moment too.. I still don't know about complete NC though. Thank you so much for talking it through.

Thank you for your kind words fantastic and greenleaf - it really helps sometimes just to know that I am not the only one affected by these issues!

I will be trying to be kinder to myself and will try to remember that people aren't giving me marks out of 10...

I guess that I need to stop being down on myself - especially when it comes to DC... My DM has really done a number on me over the years and I still love her... Being a bit fat won't stop DC loving me or make them ashamed of me if that is the only thing I have wrong! Well, not wrong... You know what I mean.

Have a good weekend all and thanks again.

Yes, Gollum your DCs will take their lead from you, and it will affect how they feel about themselves too. So, be proud of that body of yours which has produced your dc! Remember that you are setting the example here... So presumably you don't want your dcs to think it's normal/fine to be ashamed of their bodies. You don't want them giving themselves a hard time and feeling ashamed....so don't teach them that. Otherwise you're perpetuating the cycle, instead of breaking it.

It's a long while, and probably another username ago since I posted in here but my mother is up to her old tricks again; Dsis and I are both visiting and Dsis can do no wrong as always.
Mother and I were due to go out together today - I am still trying to be what in her eyes is a good daughter - but mothers bitchy compare one offspring against the other game reared its head and I was given a list of my character flaws when compared to my sister and so I told her to fuck off and left.

So now I'm sat in a car park 30 miles from her house, not sure whether to go back or stay out and hide. Knowing df will be on m's side regardless of who was right/wrong makes me want to cry. My dh is convinced my df does this for the easy life.

None of which will do any good. I could cry. We'd come so far, but m's skewed ideas of who I am are at the fore again.

FFS, sorry I just needed to vent.

Effster (hugs) I come here too when I need to vent. We as children I think instinctively worship our parents, and its so hard to get over that.

I was typing on another thread earlier that if a narcissistic or abusive parent is what you've known as a child and you eventually realise as an adult that it's wrong - but at the same time everyone tells you: but she's still your dad/mum don't be to hard on her, stop putting her on a pedestal and accept her for being a human being.

• this after she had tried to both drown and strangle me as a small child. hhmm that's the first time I've wrote that down and it occurs to me that like fuck i want her near my children and the gas lighters can fuck off. My mother has very severe mental health problems and these days is a long-term sectioned psychiatric patient and yet the gas-lighters seem to convey the message that she should be living with me and my newborn baby and toddler and she would be fine - ffs.

Effster,

Re your comment:-

"It's a long while, and probably another username ago since I posted in here but my mother is up to her old tricks again; Dsis and I are both visiting and Dsis can do no wrong as always.
Mother and I were due to go out together today - I am still trying to be what in her eyes is a good daughter - but mothers bitchy compare one offspring against the other game reared its head and I was given a list of my character flaws when compared to my sister and so I told her to fuck off and left"

Like many adult children of such toxic parents, you are still seeking their approval which they will never give you. Give your own self permission to stop chasing their approval. People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles; your assigned role in your family of origin was and remains one of scapegoat. This often happens in narcissistic family structures as well; there is often a golden child (your sister, a role which is also not without price either though she is unaware of that) and scapegoat.

Take some power back and do not play the game any more. Drop the rope they hold out to you.

"So now I'm sat in a car park 30 miles from her house, not sure whether to go back or stay out and hide. Knowing df will be on m's side regardless of who was right/wrong makes me want to cry. My dh is convinced my df does this for the easy life"

I hope you did not go back. Your DH is absolutely right. Your father is playing the bystander role to perfection here. Like many such men he is weak and acts out of self preservation and want of a quiet life.

Do read the resources at the start of this thread if you have not already done so.

Its not your fault your parents are the ways they are, you did not make them that way. Their own families of origin did that lot of damage to them.

simLondon - that makes me angry just to read, that people want you to give a home to your mother who tried to kill you as a small child.

I think the only reasonable answer is "I don't want a woman around who tries to strangle and drown a small child. Twice was enough. I value the life of my little ones"

"Of course, you could always offer her a home yourself? then at least my children would not be at risk"

Why not tell them as it is and turn it back on them? How dare they?

(may be projecting here, my biol. mother tried to strangle me though I was a great deal older and far, far better able to protect myself. But people still wanted me to say it was ok. It's never okay to attack someone else, least of all small, defenseless children. Ever.

Thank you Attila; I have seen the beginning of the thread but sometimes it helps greatly to have someone say "it's not all in your head" so thank you for that, I appreciate it greatly, more than I can express online I think.

I posted about my mother some time ago; dh reckons its 11 months since my last fracious visit, but I think I posted the visit before, so 18 months have past (or so) since I posted.

I'm lucky my dh sees things as they are - he's carless whilst I'm here and had said yesterday he'd public transport it here to drive me home - it'd take him about 8 hours - I just had to say the word.

However to my shame, I went back.
I'm still here, I leave early on Tuesday. Thank goodness, I stayed to see my sister - she and I usually miss each other's visits; I think this is the first time in 6 years we've both been in the childhood home at the same time.

Mother and father are mainly ignoring me, aside from the snide comments from mother but i'm surviving.

Thanks again :) chin-up

Effster - do you need to go to your childhood home, especially if it is to be either criticised or ignored? Can you and your sister see each other elsewhere?

Is there a way you could make the leap from 'trying to be a good daughter' to not seeking their approval anymore?

I was an absolutely ace daughter once, but not the daughter my mother wanted. Not actually ever able to be good enough. And she lost me in the end. Even now, sad/angry/ upset as she is about that, she did it to herself. She didn't appreciate what she had.

I have made very sure not to do the same to my lovely DDs. I appreciate so much the delightful people they have grown up to be, and I am beyond grateful to have such a close, loving, respectful and decent relationship with each of them. I am very sad indeed about my non-relationship with my mother, but the one I have with my daughters makes up for it 100 times over!

I still haven't sent the letter. My mother phoned a few times over the weekend. I didn't pick up. My sister's now left a message asking if what I said was true. She said my mum had been on the phone to her all weekend. She was really upset I had 'turned on her'. My sister said she wants me to call her back to discuss as it can't go on ...

Am I wrong in thinking I'm being told off here? I want it all to go away, I really don't want to have to repeat or justify myself. I drafted a letter to my dad but it sounded all wrong. They never actually ask how I am or feel or seem to recognise I've got lots of other things to worry about. I don't even expect sympathy or support, but I just feel so undermined. Like, what is my mother going to say if I ring her? And my sister? I don't know what the point is.

adorably

I would not send that letter at all because the contents will be used by them against you. Shred it instead.

Like many men to such toxic wives, your father is a bystander who acts primarily out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. He is also really her hatchet man and cannot be relied upon at all. He, like your mother, has also failed you utterly here.

Ignore all their attempts to suck you back into the fold. Any response from you will give them what they want; contact which is the reward in itself.

I would seriously consider blocking all their means of communication to you; they are emotionally abusive in nature and such dysfunctional people anyway never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

Your sister is likely to be the favoured child in this dysfunctional scenario and is certainly not acting in your best interests; her interest is to keep you as the scapegoat for all your family of origin's inherent ills. She is also acting as a flying monkey for your mother. That is your family of origin's MO here. They want someone to blame for their inherent ills and you are the one they chose for that.

You really do not need their approval any longer nor any of them in your day to day life. You would not have tolerated any of that from a friend, family are no different. It is NOT your fault they are like this, you did not make them that way.

Oh goodness adorably you have been through a world of crap with your husband, and to your eternal credit you got yourself and your children out of it. You deserve so much kudos for that.

But now the very people who should be supporting you, are making you doubt yourself. And yes you probably are being "told off". I am so angry on your behalf. Why on earth are you putting yourself through this, you don't need to justify or explain anything.

Look at it in black and white - your mother thinks you should put up with rape and emotional abuse to keep the "family" together. Do you really want a relationship with this person? Aren't you worth more than that?

Couldn't agree more with attilaThe Meerkat here. Really limit your exposure to these people. No matter how difficult it might be. What's your non-family support network like? (you have us here for a start).

All the best to you
Xx

I have had a lot of posts to catch up with. I have read them all but too many to comment on and I am pretty shit at knowing what to do but I do understand the feeling of sheer worthlessness.

I wish I could let things just go over my head rather than dwell. My DS started a part time job four weeks ago and I am getting more and more furious that there was no well done, good luck or how is he getting on. They have not contacted him either. My sister e-mails about DN and there is a reply straightaway about how wonderful DN is.

greenleaf1 You have cheered me up with your comment about clothes! Made me think of my mother who bought me something which was 3 sizes bigger the one year and than the next year bought something that was 1 sizes smaller than my normal size!