"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dystfunctional Families

[Meerka]

It's May 2015, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
March 2015

Dec 14- March 15

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I keep reading and never manage to comment. Crap broadband and kids with an awesome sense of timing...

adorably I was thinking about your dad, and not to trash him to you, but maybe this will help with the guilt: if he wants a relationship with you separate from your mother, wouldn't he be able to make an effort and be more proactive in contacting you himself? My dad was like that as well, he was really very passive and while he wanted to see me more after I left home, he did absolutely nothing to make that happen, and I'm sure he worried about my mum's reaction, but you know - not my bloody problem. You often get this thing with one abusive parent and one weak one, and the weak one is the one you think of as your ally, but they're not really an ally if they still expect you to bend over backwards to accommodate the abusive parent and make life easier for them.

Hey also everyone, have you seen the film Tangled? I got it for the kids (we're working our way through the entire Disney canon - if I have to watch kids' TV then it might as well be the decently produced stuff, I figure) and when we first watched it I was actually quite uncomfortable, so close was the depiction of the relationship between Rapunzel and her "mother" to my own childhood. Even including the long hair (which my mum used as an excuse to not let me go to school trips etc as I wouldn't be able to care for it myself). It was really powerful to see the whole closet narcissist/golden child relationship in a child's cartoon - so validating to see that she was the bad guy! If you've not seen it I'd recommend it. Very close to the bone.

New to this thread but was pointed in its direction after posting on other treads about my mother. I can't call her mum as that sounds too nice.

All my life she has tried to domineer me. At school I wasn't allowed to choose my own subjects. My career choices were dismissed as ridiculous or "Those are not jobs for girls". When I went to teacher training college I was warned not to drop out because "What would people think/say" (small town, small-minded people)

Got married too young (that was what was the expected thing to do). Cut a long story short - decided to end marriage that was dead on its arse - she totally took XH's side, gave him £KKK and gave me nothing. I have brought shame on her,

To be honest, I feel like my life is passing me by and I haven't achieved anything I've wanted to do do thanks to this dreadful woman.

Thanks for reading.

Hello all, sorry I am new too and relate so much to the experiences on here.
I am going through a turbulent patch with both my parents (abusive controlling bully of a father and enabling narcissist mother). Things have got worse since I split from my abusive ex, as it is adding fuel to their own abusive flames. Of course, it is further proof that I am screwed up and a nasty piece of work.
I literally cannot deal with it any more and I have been reading Susan forwards book, Toxic Parents.

I am reading the bit about confrontation which concerns me a lot as, apart from being scared of t h e inevitable fall out, there are so many things that they have done to me that I could end up writing an essay. Also I think that they seem to be really losing it recently, for example forgetting recent conversations, completely making up stories that I was supposed to have done in the past (we are talking school days here) to prove what a terrible person I am.

In a nutshell they are extremely irrational and volatile, and its impossible to get any sense out of them even on a good day.
I just feel like such an exercise would be futile.
I wondered if anyone else had confronted their parents,and if it was totally necessary in order to properly move on?

Hi Belinda, some of the thread veterans will be on in a minute but I just thought I would anyway say hello and welcome . I only joined a few weeks ago - the same time as I went NC with my mother.

I've been reading some stuff about the implications of being parented by a narcissist and I found this really interesting. She talks about how daughters of narcissistic mothers tend to often overachieve for a long time, but as they're not good at knowing their own preferences, they tend to run out of steam eventually and lose direction and focus and not know what to do with their lives. It's certainly like that for me - I went very far in my career, got a PhD and did postdoc research and all sorts, in an area I didn't really like! I changed career eventually but I've still not found what I really want to do. I'm currently unemployed/full time mum and I have a plan for studying and going back to work but I'm seriously thinking about putting off my uni place and doing counselling beforehand, because I just don't know how much of my decision making is to do with all the bullshit I keep inside of me about having to do something that justifies my place in the world instead of just getting a bloody job I like. What will I really like, I'm not sure, I spent too many years ignoring my own needs to know. Sometimes in happy times or times of great stress (like when my kids were born) I think really clearly for a short time and it's like getting the monkey off my back.

Are you still in contact with your mum/living in the same town? Do you know what you want to do - what were those career choices that your mother dismissed?

outofpaper I finished reading Toxic Parents a few weeks ago and I decided to go NC without confronting my mother (still deciding whether I might just send her a note to say I won't be in further contact). Advice here on the thread was not to, and I anyway was minded not to confront because to be honest I wouldn't want to have a relationship with my mother even if she turned over a new leaf tomorrow. Reading the book I wondered if it was something I needed to do to progress through my recovery but actually I think "all" you need to do in that step is to acknowledge that they might never be sorry. Does that make sense?

HI outofpaper, I think the most important thing is to do what gets you through for the time being. You can go NC or very very LC without saying why and then if you want to later then you can write them a letter to tell them why. I'm not sure that the confrontation really works, or not in all situations. I had therapy and di confront but about 3 months after NC and having weekly therapy in that time. My therapist was very keen for me to write my mum a letter and say "my truth" if you like but the idea wasn't to send it, it was to write it for me. I did actually send it and it gave me a great sense of peace, but didn't actually help our relationship or end NC as of course she just poo pooed it all and turned it back on me, but I'm glad I did it. However, I think it's maybe easier to do from a distance after a period of NC as you aren't just reacting in the same old ways, you can work out exactly what you want them to hear, iyswim.
Sometimes you need the breathing space of NC first to clear your head. You don't have to tell them anything, you can just stop contact if you want.
Do they live near you? Do you currently see them a lot?

Thank you for advice ?? yes that does sound sensible.
It's such a horrible feeling when they are like this - like being bullied but you are accused of being the bully.
I don't see them much but dm calls relatively often when we are not in silent treatment mode (such as now). They live about 100 miles away.
It's shocking how many of us are going through the same thing to all

Oops didn't mean to put the question marks in my post sorry!!! That was my silly phone

Goodtobetter how did you find your therapist?

toomuch my brother lives in Dublin and a friend of his recommended a therapist to him. My brother was really impressed with the therapist and so I got in touch and asked if he could do skype sessions as I was a bit desperate by then (and I live in Spain, not Dublin, so couldn't do face to face sessions). We did all our sessions via Skype and it was great, really helped me. But it's important to find someone you click with and who gets toxic families and why people might be NC. I saw a woman therapist here face to face and I'm sure she's great for other issues, but she didn't really get who/what kind of woman my mother was. The guy in Dublin, totally got it, even despite his head start having had my brother as a client, he understood toxic families.

Toomuch I would say I tolerate my mother. I don't think she has any idea of the impact her behaviour had on me and my sister, or how it affected our lives.

My career choices were -
Librarian - "You're too clever to be a librarian"
Royal Navy - "That's not for girls"
Forensics - "Don't be ridiculous - girls don't do that and anyway you were useless at science." FWIW I wanted to do sciences at school but she made me do languages cos that was what she had done.

In my ideal world I would be working in a library at one of the colleges of Oxford unversity. Unfortunately it's too late to do anything about it now

toomuch My DC are in their late teens so Tangled has passed us by but I am sure I should be able to watch such a DVD over Christmas.

Belinda they would have had an issue with any career you chose because that it what they are like. I am sorry that they sided with your ex. I always regret not studying what I wanted. My parents should have been encouraging me not putting me down

outofpaper Since you live a distance away you could go LC without actually telling anyone. My DS is just so busy at the weekends and I have to taxi him around. Parents live too far away to just pop round for a coffee so no visits.

I can't see that confronting the narcissist gets you anywhere. Surely they would just deny everything or say they don't remember and turn it all round on you.

Hi I've only recently realised I was emotionally abused by my parents, and need support coming to terms with it. I have tried to talk to my parents but they refused to recognise how their name calling and put downs really affected my self esteem and said they did it to help me. I'm just struggling with where I go from here, I've been advised by several people on here to cut them out of my life but I'm finding that difficult to do that so suddenly

Hi pretty Realizing that the behaviour is not normal is a start. It is hard. I remember talking to someone one phone at work and she was telling me about her narcissistic mother. It was like she was talking about mine. I felt like I had been kicked but at the time there was someone else who understood.

They won't ever accept that they are in the wrong. It is always about for your own good or you deserved it as you were a difficult child.

The advice is good but as I can't do it so I am not one to talk. I understand it is difficult so could you go LC gradually. Keep increasing the length of time between visits.

I haven't had counselling but I it is something I need to look at. I know quiet a few on here have found it very helpful

You will find a lot of support here and I am continually amazed that parents can behave like this. How supportive is your DH being?

The fact you know their behaviour is wrong and like the rest of us here there is no way you are going to treat your DD and any future children like that puts you way up in the mothering stakes. You are a good mum.

I hope we can all help you. Knowing I am not the only one has really helped

Goodtobetter thanks . that is a really good set up, with the Skype - I live in Germany so I might try and find a British/Irish therapist who'll do Skype.

Belinda what does your mother do, if you don't mind me asking?
Snorting at the idea that librarian is a job for the less clever. I daresay your mother (if she gave it any thought) was imagining you reshelving books all day.
Is there really no way you could go back and study or retrain?

toomuch I'll give you my therapist's details in a PM if you like. He's Irish. He was really great. Not cheap but worth every penny.

belinda .... how much contact do you have with her now? Is it possible to reduce contact gradually? Ie, stop phoning her, answer the phone to her only some of the time.

Most of all, put up a barrier of mist. quietly withdraw from giving her info. She's giving you her opinion and directing you unasked; it's very, very hard to challenge that but if you can manage to quietly dodge the questions, you will become ungraspable to her.

Firstly, stop volunteering info.

Secondly, ask her about herself (distraction technique)

Thirdly, when she asks directly say "everything's fine. Really. Nothing interesting is going on". If you must talk, talk about minutae that will bore her. If she starts saying "why arent you telling me stuff?", an answer can be that you don't know what she's referring to, you've told her everything and there -is- nothing going on.

The point of all this is to gradually create distance between you and her and in that distance, behind the barrier of mist, you can start to think without her dominating everything and find your own place to stand. There are other things you can do later on if this works for you, but this is a good start when faced with someone overwhelming.

outofpaper writing a letter down is a very good idea. Then you can burn it if you want, or put it in a box in the attic. You don't have to send it. From what you say, your parents have a reality problem anyway, so it would all be denied or distorted and if they are the sort to gossip and moan about you, they'd use it as ammunition. There's very little chance of a rational response from them.

In this situation, do what seems right to you.

prettyknackered might going Low Contact be easier at first? same steps as for belinda. Going NC is too overwhelming often. Going LC is an easier step to manage. Do they live close by? Is actually calling them on their nasty comments impossible atm? (it often is!) Might it be possible, if they start in on you, to quietly cut the visit short and make excuses and leave? (again, understand if that's not possible)

By the way, my biological mother was the violent, appalling destructive one on the surface. But while the circumstances were a bit different, my adoptive's father nasty comments, unfulfilled promises of "ill always be there for you" and the lack of any interest at all has cut deepest in many ways.

Hello,

I've read this thread on and off for a couple of years. I'm really struggling with everything that's happened in my life and I have only just realised in my early 30s bow abnormal my childhood was. And I an struggling to cope with the expectations of a normal adult. I feel so completely alone. I have a counsellor and was signed up for 3 years and thought it would be fine, but I'm a year and a half through and things are even worse now.

I posted on another thread "Support thread for survivors of childhood sexual abuse" but it's not very active. And I think that abuse was low on my list of problems.

I don't know what to say. I've been feeling terrible for weeks now. My counsellor is like "well you will feel better, it's a state of mind, you've felt better before" but if my options are feeling intensely bad or like a zombie with no love or happiness in my life then I don't want it.I have never felt good. I have either felt desperately sad and angry, or I have felt nothing. I feel like my counselling is pointing to me accepting that my life will never have happiness and just getting on with it and going through the motions, and just enduring the bad times so I can get to be a zombie again, and I am devastated about it. I was so stoic and optimistic and a trier in spite of all the shit thrown at me, because the only glimmer of hope was that my life might one day have a bit of happiness and that gave me motivation and kept me going. But I am getting nowhere.

Thanks better! I'd really appreciate that.

prettyknackered, meer gives good advice on how to withdraw from them a bit. I was LC with my parents (my mother) for years, like nearly 20 years, so it can be done. Don't share anything really good or really bad with them - try and manage the flow of news to them. What happens then is that the nasty undermining comments start to miss the target as they don't really know what's going on with you, and it becomes a lot easier to shake off their influence. It helps also let go of the idea that you're ever going to get them to understand your point of view and be sorry. You need to find other people to talk to (including us if you want ) people who have your best interests at heart, who can listen to you objectively and mirror back to you. I read somewhere that those of us with narcissistic parents lack mirroring most of all - someone else looking at you and correctly calling out what you're feeling. You need that but you're not going to get it from your parents, most likely.

**Theymakemefeellikeshit That's exactly what they say, and it really messes with my head. I think LC is the way to go, and counselling. DP is very supportive, he cant believe I still want anything to do with them, he has nothing to do with his dad as he was emotional abused when he was a child. I wouldn't dream of treating dd like I was, and I would want her to know she can talk to me about anything and I will be there for her

**OnceAMeerNotAlwaysAMeer I think going LC will definitely be easier to start. They live about 20 minutes drive away. I have tried to speak to them about it over the last week but got nowhere, they argued how they called me wierd, over sensitive, a hermit because 'I was' and they were trying to 'help me', and they told me not to apply for the uni course I wanted to because there wasn't many places and they were 'helping me to be realistic', every time my mum insults me she says 'it's a fact'. A few hours after the phone call my dad rang to tell to 'forget the past, life is short.' They dismissed my feelings the whole time and then tell me to just forget what happened. I know deep down they are only really interested in my dd and they know they have to be civil to me in order to see her, which upsets me more because they clearly don't care about me but expect to see dd.

I have thought if I do see them and they do upset me again I can just leave. I am still quite angry after I tried to confront them and my mum told me having no self esteem or confidence is 'my personality', my issue is they both says horrible things to me and then they will say 'we know you are a brilliant mum no ones doubting that, were not taking that away from you, we just want to bond with her too' my problem with them wasn't even to do with dd but they always bring her in to it, I have no confidence because of there constant put downs, I want to build my self esteem and wanted them to understand that how they treated me made me feel bad, so they would stop but they don't listen or don't understand or don't want to, I don't want to give them the opportunity to put me down again but I can't seem to cut them off either, I'm beyond frustrated

**toomuchtooold I know LC is the right way to go, it just feels so false, and having to guard myself and only tell them certain things it's wrong. I think I'm still clinging on to hope that they will suddenly realise how it's affected me and change their ways. I know this won't happen but my head can't stop hoping it will

prettyknackered I don't know if that longing ever goes away. Myabe for some people. Not for me, though there are times I handle it okay, and other times when I don't.

it's become a hangover from the past that I know will never be satisfied though, which lets me get a bit of perspective on it. It's still there, it's still very strong, but it doesnt make me go back to my father and stand still for the unpleasantness any more, in the (i now know) vain hope that he'll be loving at some point.

Hi Pretty I too tried low contact for far more years than I would like to count, and now am NC. quite recently and the difference is huge. I have no Idea what I was trying to achieve with LC. some kind of imagae of myself as sociatally normal. Some kind of hope hat I would get it right and that they would suddenly love me. Some kind of image of myself as a good girl that I wouldnt let go.
It turns out that once I put myself in a position of not having to deal with them - in three parts of my life ( past present and future - anticipation) I was able to gain perspective really quickly - really really substantially change my thinking because I wasnt constantly anticipating the next dumper load of shit.
If youre family are sufficiently bad, controlling etc it may be possible that LC means you cant get enough traction to move on and you end up in a holding pattern - wasting your life and energy maintaining this - basicly you may not have a big enough shovel to keep up with the shit and drown slowly in it.
even a fixed period of NC may help you gain new insight and allow you to gain some perspective on what you want, disenmeshing from them enough to allow you to identify your own healthy needs and set boundries should you choose to re-engage.

I dont know what i want honestly at the moment I just want to be with my dd but they say im using her as a pawn, I know it sounds unreasonable but I just want to concentrate on me, my dp and dd. I dont feel like i owe them anything but do feel guilty. Im constantly being hassled by people particualy my mum my dad my aunty to see dd. I just want to be left alone for now, ive recieved several texts from my aunty (mums sister) im not close to her in the slightest and she keeps sending texts inviting herself round on her days off work, ive ignored them so far but why cant i just enjoy my dd right now, im sick of feeling liike i have to share her with people who want nothing to do with me, but think its their right to see my dd. Im building a bond with her shes only 11 weeks old and everyone has pressured me from day one to see her more and more, i gave in and the first month of her life i watched her be passed around to everyone else because i wanted to please them, and i struggled to feel a connection with her because of that, aibu?

The right to have a relationship with your daughter is only something you can grant, even the courts stand by this one. If the were not a good family to you - hat makes you think the are going to be a good family to your daughter ?
You are making the assumption that they know how to respect and cherish a member of their own family - but are just choosing not to with you - which damns them for their behaviour
or
You have to accept that they dont know how to have a healthy emotional relationship with anyone..which means you giving up on them changing (- but means you get to save your daughter by saying no.)

either way - they dont come out of it well - but you can if you can see and acknolege the pattern.

acknowlege - sorry turned off autocorrect