Feel bit annoyed but maybe harmless lads banter? DH

[sillyornot]

Ok first thing out the way - I read dh text. He has been away at work and there was banter on there about how hot the woman was who was taking their course.. look at her tits etc.

So he goes away again this week so I need to look. Says to the person who is already at the course "any hotties there?"

No grief over reading the texts please but just debating. harmless lad banter, after all I would say to a friend oh he is nice looking etc or more?

I'm not excusing some men's attitudes but just saying that in my own experience it is not that unusual for some men to still talk about women in that way when they think they are just amongst men.

There are plenty of men that don't speak like that and it has got better because women and men too won't tolerate it but there is still a long way to go.

This kind of desperate, humourless, "banter" is embarassing for a lot of men as well (who feel they have to participate in it in order to be socially accepted )

Young men are often just as embarrassed of looking like a dirty, creepy, pervy, old weirdo as women are at receiving it.

The best thing for men and women is to create a culture in which it is unacceptable.

I am talking in general terms, iwas, and i agree there is still a long way to go

zero tolerance would help a lot

the trouble is whe you exhibit such an attitude, you get labelled as humourless and sex-hating

*when

I would agree with you up to a point iwas; attitudes and thoughts are remaining the same, but how those are vocalised is now restricted to all male groups for the most part. Like you, I work in a male dominated industry and I hear snippets of these conversations, or what my boyfriend tells me was the source of today's fun and games in work. But they're still taking place because men are still having these thoughts. Frankly, most of us don't have a baldy what's said in all-male groups. The reason why Jane Austen never wrote a conversation where only men were in attendance is because she admitted that she didn't know how they behaved without women present, so she couldn't portray it accurately. I don't know if anything has really changed.

Anyway, you will find that in many workplaces a mirrored conversation is taking place amongst the female staff because the customer with the great arse has just walked in and everyone is fighting to serve him also happened on my watch. This has happened in every single place I've worked, with colleagues of different nationalities, backgrounds, educational attainment, professions, sexualities and genders.

People will always find others attractive. From when we start fancying people in late-primary/early secondary school, we discuss the opposite (sometimes same) sex and who and what we find attractive, and people will find this amusing. The day we stop thinking like this is the day when people stop sharing even the most chaste of sexual thoughts.

AF I know what you mean about being labelled as humourless if you object. I know quite well if I went downstairs and called the men up on some of the "banter" that I hear I would be the one labelled as embarrassing and they were only "having a laugh."

Craic yes I do agree that it's mainly conversations purely amongst men. I'm out of sight with what I overhear and I don't think most of the time they know I hear. When I've been downstairs nothing along those lines is ever said.

I don't think most people object to people saying they find someone else attractive as such it's more the objectifying sexist tone that comes over in some of the conversations that is offensive. That a woman's worth is judged on whether she's got "big tits" or not.

Yeah it's sexist and childish and inappropriate of him - very sleazy and I'm sure disappointing for you to see OP.

But looking at his texts is an invasion of his privacy IMO. Not giving you 'grief' just pointing out that at least it was (although sexist) a private conversation.

I'd be annoyed if my DP was texting about people's tits/hotties but I'd be equally/possibly more annoyed if he looked through my messages.

Are you going to talk to him about it? He'll probably be embarrassed but be prepared to answer why you were looking.

Well I for one am shocked. Dumbfounded, even.

I can honestly say that in 40+ years of maleness, I've never EVER heard a man mention a woman's tits to another man. Actually I didn't even know that women HAD tits until I got married, such is the power of inter-male secrecy about them. I thought that women just had some clever way of carrying oranges under their blouses!

I honestly don't know how you would even deal with something as serious as this. Have you considered reporting him to the police? He should be on the sex offenders' register, at the very least.

No big deal. He is just following the crowd to fit in the group. Just ignore it.

I would not be happy one bit if my OH talked like this about another woman. I'd feel he had no respect for me/our relationship. Saying that I know he wouldn't because he does have that respect there. Suppose it all depends on what you yourself feel comfortable with so if it does upset you then tell him - he might not be aware it would bother you.

Of course, objectifying men never happens on MN, does it? Only yesterday (or might have been Monday) I was reading a thread in AIBU where someone had posted a photo of Idris Elba with his top off. Not just a headshot, but naked torso shot, with the inevitable "yum" comments that followed.

It ain't just men.

Send him a text saying you are really upset because you have just heard the guys at work talking about your tilts ..they have said you are a hottie

I do sometimes find the naivety on here astonishing.

Most men - not ALL but most - evaluate the women they see and meet in terms of sex appeal and attractiveness.

The newsreader Jon Snow said it succinctly last year: 'Every time a man meets a woman he hasn’t met before, the thought goes through his mind: ‘do I fancy her?’ That is a fact"

Most men have the sense not to share their observations about other women's boobs, lips, bums etc with their partners for obvious reasons. Many do though banter with other men when they're not being observed by the female of the species.

Is it sexist? Yes. Does it objectify women? Yes. Are men likely to stop anytime soon. No.

Oh here we go. There is always, always someone on these threads who posts something like this almost word for word. They are always wrong.

And I love it how the naive thing is chucked in just to shut us all down for being a bit stupid.

My husband and most of our male friends do not act like this. In fact I've never seen him so much as glance at another woman and there is nothing lacking in his manliness either. He just so happens to like women as people, rather than as objects.

This behaviour makes me despair of the male sex. No wonder women cant get on in the work place.

Also women who say "I have never heard a man say this!" Do you really think a man would say this in front of you? they do it with other men when they are alone.

Precisely, Rebecca. I think firesidechat might be surprised to see her husband's reaction to attractive women if he were secretly filmed. It may well not be a phwoooaar type of reaction, but his attention would probably be attracted. Presumably he was physically attracted to her at some point!

As a student I worked on building sites where the reaction to women was, let's say, unrestrained. In my career as a City lawyer I observed the same reaction, but expressed in less earthy terms. It would be something like "she really gets the oxygen pumping round". People are attracted to other people and that will never change. People express their feelings in direct or more subtle ways and that will never change either.

My DP did this.. when he was a teenager! Then he grew up.. He respects me and other women too much to see us as pieces of meat to be judged. Most men I know are the same, the ones who aren't tend not to be in relationships and are still a bit immature. Not all men do this.. The types who tend to are the laddy ones who hang around in groups, it's their way of bonding. Some women talk about large dicks with their mates but I can't think of anything worse!
So no not all men do this. You should talk to him about it but I don't think you can change what he says when you're not around..

I wouldn't be thrilled if I read these comments on my DPs phone, but I wouldn't think he was sexist pig if I did.

I'm forever chatting to my friends about the relative attractiveness of the men we all work with. I would be utterly mortified of course if any of those comments were held up in public though, because of course I like and respect my colleagues and would never dream of embarrassing them.

If he was making these comments out loud then he'd lose his job and quite rightly. But in private conversation I don't see there's much wrong with it. If any of my friends starts a new job etc one of the first questions over a beer will be 'so what's the talent like?'.

Maybe I'm emotionally stunted and should no longer think about men as attractive or otherwise, but I suspect that I will always be like this regardless of my age (44) and that many (most?) other adults are too.

I work in a male dominated environment (I'm the only woman) you should hear the stuff that pretty much all of the guys here come out with. Some of them are single, some have girlfriends, some are married with kids - doesn't stop them ogling, commenting on and generally perving over pretty much any woman who walks by, comes in, is in the news, on the internet etc. etc. These are professional blokes, some directors, some manual workers, in happy relationships etc.

I've come to realise that this is what blokes do when in a group, it's all bravado, banter, bullshit. I think a lot of women would be very surprised to hear what comes out of their blokes mouths when in a group of other blokes

"Boys will be boys" huh?

Ignorance is a deeply unattractive quality. Have words. Have strong words.

I agree that this is often what men do in groups under the guise of "banter". I don't think all men do it and I know that my DH dislikes it and doesn't take part in it. I have seen him tackle this kind of banter on the FB page of our cycle club, for example, and he gets accused of being humourless too.

It is one thing for any person to observe another and, in their head, acknowledge them as attractive, quite another to verbalise that to others as a way of reducing an attractive human being to an object or even a body part, purely to bond and be "one of the guys".

You can think someone looks great without ever having to comment.

If guys needs to "banter" then let it be about football or taking the mick out of each other. We should not accept that the bonds of masculinity are predicated on the objectification of women.

Or the other way round. I HATE those fecking Diet Coke ads with a passion.

I think CraicDealer is right. As she said when "evaluating" the IT guy, it didn't make her think any less of him professionally.
Of course, plenty of men dimiss women as being inferior though.
Objectifying happens both ways. I have seen women I work with all clambering to go out of their way to see a sales guy who had a nice arse!
I would guess men do it more than women but I have also been told that women do it just as much.
Not all, obviously. None of my friends are like this, me neither, but I know that it happens a lot in certain circles.

What I don't understand is your "he's a wonderful husband blah blah blah" - then why did you feel the need to snoop through his phone? You clearly have concerns about what he is capable of or you wouldn't have done nor would you be on here seeking reassurances that his behaviour is normal (ps it isn't)

Nearly ten years working with the same 6 blokes; 3 of them regularly engage in "laddish" banter, the other 3 don't.

Sample survey would suggest that some men do, some men don't.

Funny that? Different people thinking/saying/doing different things. Its almost as if we are individuals with our own brains. Who knew?

I wouldn't assume all women like shopping/children/lakeland heater dryers so why would I assume all men objectify women?

"Are men likely to stop anytime soon. No." - Au contraire, PP. When sexist behaviour has actual and immediate repercussions - at home, in the workplace, in public - then I think they* are likely to stop pretty damn quick.
OP, we don't know anything about your husband. Except for the whole, you know, actively engaging in sexist and demeaning behaviour thing. Was someone holding a gun to his head when he wrote that text? Was it the world's most unfortunate autocorrect? No? Then being "a bit annoyed" is a very, very mild response.

• they=the tiny fatuous minority that still thinks "lads' banter" is an acceptable excuse for being a disrespectful knob