"The Rules"

[jessmay]

I just read this after being recommended y a friend, and as far as I can see the basic premise is to pretend not to be that available or interested and not to give away too much of yourself.

I'm reading it and can't help feeling like it's basically tricking a man with sexual desire into marrying you.

Is it just me?

Don't you want to just be yourself?

BertieBotts, thank you for that post, really reassuring.

I DID go to him and mention I was concerned that he was still so active, and that I'd really prefer if he was honest with me about where I stood because I was in a place of wanting to see how it went with him and if he was looking at plan B I would like to know. He sent a message back to me to me which said he had no plan B, C or D, that he really, really liked me more than I knew and that I should cast aside any doubts that I had over it. He said he wasn't a serial dater and had nothing else lined up.

I relaxed for 48 hours but he was literally constantly online one night. I just blew a fuse really because I'd told him it concerned me and I felt like I HAD layed out a boundary so I sent him a message to say I'd seen him online so much that it felt beyond the norm to me, and that it was raising alarm bells for me and that therefore I didn't want to continue and not to try and talk me round because it was a firm "no".

He replied saying he understood where I was coming from but wanted me to know he'd been genuinely looking forward to coming home to see me again but that he accepted by decision. I thanked him and said I had liked him a lot and he said "obviously not if you think this of me" and that was that.

I am genuinely not sure if he is either a complete lying twat or if I just accused a totally innocent person but it was making me unhappy, I drew a boundary and he wasn't interested in responding to me being open about what I needed to feel comfortable continuing.

Maybe I will ask him in person. I am not sure if he's cold with me now from being angry at me for being needy too soon or if he just has a guilty conscience because he does have a plan B.

I honestly DONT want marriage, not even commitment right now in my life but I do want someone who dates only me.

I'm a bit annoyed that I'm being made to feel that's an unreasonable expectation, but I kind of feel in y head like if he was that into me it wouldn;t be a problem, and if he's not...he should piss off.

It sounds very much like he was what the young people call a player. I think you should cut your losses and move on.

(And the fact he was genuinely looking forward to seeing you in no way indicates he didn't have other women on the go.)

'The Rules', like 'The Game', is indeed an instruction manual in the art of the headfuck. However, I think they both do one useful thing - they show people without much confidence how to behave as if they were confident, with boundaries and standards and not putting all their eggs in one basket. The rest can be pretty safely ignored.

I have a friend/colleague who's just turned 30, very attractive and is dating someone she met online.

It sounds absolutely dreadful. They go on a lot of dates, shag regularly and yet he still insists they they are not a couple and he's still got an active profile on dating websites or Tinder or whatever it is.

How women can be arsed I just don't know.

The Rules just state play hard to hget don't they? I never followed them myself but TBH, they may work as its human nature to covet something that we perceive as harder to obtain and hence more valuable.

It really should not be this hard OP, yes he sounds like a bit of a player casting his net far and wide but you sound obsessed, seriously take a step back, you are getting yourself in a twist over some bloke you met online and have only know for a month! It’s not healthy, the pair of you are already sending sniping messages to each other, you clearly don’t trust him, do you honestly believe it’s the healthy foundation for a long term relationship. Cut your losses and move on.

Its not uncommon with internet dating for people to have several irons in the fire at any one time, and certainly from my experience it was only after several dates in or when you started to sleep with someone did the expectation of exclusivity come into it.

"How women can be arsed I just don't know. "

Yeah, cos it is just men who are time wasters or players when it comes to internet dating, no women would ever behave like that........no sirreeeee.

Nope the more you say the more I think your instincts were spot on there!

You are so right that the moment anybody crosses a boundary you put down, that has to be it. People who pay no heed to "little" boundaries like that, where you could argue it doesn't matter, are not likely to pay attention to big boundaries such as I don't feel like having sex tonight or I want this relationship to stay exclusive. They feel justified in saying one thing to your face and doing another. Look at what they do, rather than say. Conversely, somebody who respects "little" boundaries is also going to be aware and respectful of the bigger ones.

TBH, his response of "obviously not" was unnecessary and a bit manipulative (guilt inducing). He wants you to know that for whatever reason he feels hurt. It would have been OK for him to say "Oh, I was looking forward to it but never mind. I accept your decision" and that would be it. He did not need to add anything to it.

I wouldn't meet him in person. I think it will leave a bad taste in your mouth. Just put it down to experience. Did you consider the third option: That he's being "cold" (or, detached) because you ended it and he wants to be respectful of that and is keeping his distance as you asked.

And yes of course it's fine to state that you want an exclusive relationship. I would stick to real life meetings, though, with OLD. You want to move as quickly as possible from the screen to a casual meeting or two. Keep the texting and cosy skype chats for when you actually know a person a bit better - it's hard to get to know someone online and they can much more easily put up a different "face" if that makes sense. Difficult when someone lives further away, I know.

I've reread your posts OP, and I can't work out if you had met up in real life very much. Was the relationship mainly online?

We met online, he was messaging me for a few weeks. Just a few messages and I responded lightly (wasn't interested in him) then one night he facetimed me and I did actually quite like him. He asked me a lot of questions about fidelity, he said he'd been cheated on and had no time for infidelity. He seemed very patient, very sincere, very normal.

I went out with him once. He was a complete gent, we had a great time. He called the same night to say he'd had a great time and asked me out again. We were due to go on a second date but he was called away on business for 3.5 weeks. He said he understood he couldn't ask me to wait while he was away but he also hoped I'd not meet someone else in the meantime.

I said I was fine to wait 3.5 weeks for a second date because I liked him. He was really happy and he texted / called or facetimed every day. He also said he was certain it would be a relationship and he was planning dates weeks / months in advance.

He added me on Facebook, and his friends said hello to me indicating he'd been talking about me. They were asking if my ears were burning etc.

He didn't do anything to seem like a player. He seemed completely like a smitten man at the first stages of courtship.

So yes, just one meeting but more to it than that and I just just feel really, really pissed off that at the time he was giving me the impression of being a genuine guy looking for a relationship and believing one was beginning he would be hedging his bets, continuing to look around or speaking to someone else.

I know all this is a lesson learned and I AM glad really that I told him it wasn't okay and elected to walk away from the situation because it was making me feel bad - and no new relationship should make you feel that way.

He does seem genuinely gutted and hurt, but perhaps a lot of that is bruised ego. He'd told people he was going out with me, and now I suppose he has to say he's not.

I just don't really understand why they bother going to such lengths! I'm quite sure he does want a relationship...he obviously just felt I was being clingy but then I really can't fathom why he'd want to go out with a woman with so little self respect as to tolerate anything less than what I was expecting.

Onwards and upwards I suppose

OP you didn't mess this up.

You were in contact with a guy you spent time talking to. You want to date someone exclusively, and he, despite his protestations that he really likes you, doesn't. He want to talk to you and other women online. He says one thing and does another.

So that's that. You're not on the same page, don't want the same things, move on.

xpost with OP - how he feels is not your problem.

Fwiw a 'smitten man at the first stages of courtship' is exactly how a player would act to hook you.

It's a game, that's why they're called 'players'.

You've done well: recognised this man is not sincere and called time asap.

Thanks Twinkle!

God I don't think I could cope with all the 'online' stuff if I were single again. How the hell are you supposed to gauge somebody (ie all the usual ways, body language, gut feeling, etc, etc) on a screen?

And apparently going by 'The Rules' I got it completely wrong - DTD on the first night and fell completely hook, line and sinker from that point. Have been married 15 years now though so must have got something right

TBH, going on about infidelity to that length is a bit of a red flag - he likely would have turned out to either be a bit of a player himself (hence the paranoia) or an insecure jealous controlling person. Having to establish in such detail that you will be faithful is not a normal or relaxed stance on it - most people would just say "I'm looking for an exclusive relationship, is that OK with you?" "OK, great, me too." and then left it at that.

I am also that he had the temerity to say he was "certain it would be a relationship" after ONE date. Again, that kind of intensity early on in a relationship is a well known red flag - for controlling behaviour.

TBH, I am calling bullshit on the business trip story. I bet he says that to all of the women he meets on there. It's a little convenient isn't it? He really wants to see you, thinks this could go places, but he just can't. He understands if you meet someone else but hopes that you don't. Very very carefully orchestrated there to pull on your heart strings and keep you hanging. A great excuse for lots of contact he can do with little effort to keep you hanging - texting, email, facetime. And you wouldn't know if he was in a hotel or his own home, because you've never been there.

I mean it could all be genuine, but it is a little bit too suspect, all of those things together, and if he was genuine, then as you say, why was he back on the site checking in every day?

So many frogs lately though! I think when I was younger I lucked out with a series of such wonderful men. Normal courtship, no big shocks, no lies...just dating. Was dumped a few times and devastated but they were considerate and normal.

The past few years I've had such bad experiences! Not sure if men change into twats when they get into their mid thirties or early forties but they just seem so....well...dysfunctional.

Penguins I think that's key actually - you should be avoiding too much screen contact. Think of OLD as being more "online meeting people". You can immediately screen out anyone who you very obviously won't click with, and the people you do think there might be something with, you want to get into "real life" as quickly as possible. Start off vv casual, daytime coffee shop kind of meeting place, and only branch into anything more datelike if you actually find you enjoy a person's company.

Of course I am a total hypocrite saying this, as I mostly "dated" DH over msn messenger but the difference was that we knew each other beforehand - screen talking, texting etc is fine once you've got to know a person because you can have a rough idea of their usual tone etc and it's less easy to read things into it that you want to see, and very easy for someone game playing to keep dropping carefully worded things in there to reel you in.

OP: he lied to you, saying one thing and acting completely differently. If you accept that, you'll be laying a blueprint for your relationship, that it is "ok" for him to do that in different contexts. Not good.

The Rules: they are misogynistic BULLSHIT. Why? Because they reinforce the trope that says women's desire is scary and terrifying and BAD, and if she shows desire towards a man, that demonstration of interest in itself is enough to negate any attraction he might have started to feel. The message is that men are always allowed to express desire, to have emotions, to go after what they want. But a woman's desire (or interest, or basic humanity) is so anathema to men (according to the Rules), if she dares express it, men run away screaming in terror. I don't want to live in a world like that.

Jess I strongly suspect that your bad experiences are due to meeting these people online rather in RL? Going on what single friends have told me anyway...

Oh I dunno, I've only dated men in their 20s and all except one has been a knob of varying proportions

I suspect in their 30s and 40s the sleazers are just more practised if all. You would have spotted them a mile off when younger if you had good self esteem and a healthy relationship model (I didn't, which is why I didn't) but now they are much better at blending in and hiding in the guise of somebody far more reasonable.

There are twats everywhere I don't think it's a reason not to do online dating... you just have to keep your wits about you...

Well, he is definitely on the business trip because we're on Facebook together so it shows his location and all his friends are asking how it is over there. So that part is true.

I wouldn't say he grilled me at first, I am quite good with the red flags now (learned the hard way) and he just seemed like a normal man looking for Miss Right. He didn't strike me as at all controlling.

He was very insistent that it was fine for me to continue to date other people, and that he expected no less after one date and him being called away. He did say he was a bit jealous, but he said that if I went out with someone else hopefully I would like him more. I do think he just has a COMPLETELY diferrent view of the dating process. I prefer to be exclusive from the start and obviously he doesn't.

I do think though that he did lie, or at least mislead. He was telling me there was no one else...he was saying he was not talking to anyone else, and I personally don't believe that is true with the sheer quantity of time he was logged in.

A few of my friends thought what I did was way over the top...they said it was one date and he was away in the middle of nowhere on this business trip (true) and probably bored and logging in and it meant nothing. A few of my other friends said I was perfectly reasonable and if he had been serious he would have apologised for something which was bothering me and agreed to suspend use until things between us hadn't worked out.

I suppose what I thought was that I was setting out an expectation or boundary and he had a choice to meet it or not meet it, and if he chose not he was probably not worth my time.

Or maybe there WAS no one else but in the process of logging on every 5 minutes someone popped up! Could be quite that simple.

Jess my advice (should you want it!) would be that a relationship shouldn't be hard work. IME it will either work or it won't. If he likes you enough, there won't be all this angst and stress; he will want to see you because he likes you, and will therefore make sure it happens.

God am I sounding like something out of The Rules now?

I read this - it gave me something at the time..I took from it that I needed to be more happy with myself and not so full on - I can be quite an intense person. But others may hook into different aspects that are pertintent to them.

I can remember 'be a flirt in a skirt' - I did buy some skirts for work and sensible heals but I dont think my DH - who I credit with a bit of intelligence fell for me because of this though it may hvae cuaght his eye? meh soon saw me in my mismatched PJ's and hairy legs.

Hi op I met a bloke who was similar. It was almost as if he wanted a online/text girlfriend but never really came though with any actions that made me think he was genuinely interested. Lots of 'I'm really interested in you' and plans to meet up and we did have a few sporadic dates but they were massively spaced out. He was also on Skype a lot. He knew I was online. We could both see each other but he wouldn't Skype me. I couldn't take being dangled on a hook anymore and finished it. He sad but understood. He got in contact a few months later and really ramped up the texts ect but tailed off again. So I looked at his 'ex' girlfriends facebook an she was slagging him off for cheating on her with some one and that some one wasn't even me!! He'd been with her the whole time.

When I met DP. There was no games. It was a breath of fresh air. He wanted to be with me and his actions proved it.

Don't waste your time wondering about this bloke - he isn't worth it

I'm really torn about The Rules. I read the book in a bookshop because why pay money for a load of tosh like that, also it's basically one paragraph rewritten (badly) a hundred times.

The feminist in me is outraged at the idea of having to act like a fifties debutante in order to have a decent adult relationship in the modern world.

But the realist in me knows that the approach does generally work. Sadly. In general terms, on the dating scene, men want a shag and women want a relationship. This is usually the case despite what both parties will say to the contrary.

Women enjoy sex as much as men do, that's hardly news. But the double standards that prevail regarding sex in relationships mean that you have to pretend you don't want sex in order to have a relationship, if you're a woman.

So very generally speaking, if you have sex within hours of meeting, then that man will not see you as relationship material. It sucks, it's unfair, it makes me furious. But, I want a boyfriend.

I know that loads of people on here (me included) have gone on to have great LTRs with men they've shagged straight away. It happens. But I was also 'dumped' more times than I can remember for the same 'crime'.

I look better in jeans than a skirt so they can stick their outdated style advice up their doughnut starved derrieres, but the simple premise of playing hard to get will almost always work, whether we like that dynamic or not.