Anyone else unable to forgive OH historic alcoholism?

[Somethingtodo]

We have been together 30 years. He had a big drink problem for over 20 years - gave up totally for 5 years - and is now drinking again (last 5 years) - but not so heavily. But I keep having flashbacks to the alcohol incidents - and wondering why I endured them at the time....does that mean I forgave that behaviour then ? but why am I looking back with anger. now...?

These are the flashbacks:

Me cowering and trying to cover for you whilst feeling deep shame, watching our friends wince with embarrassment when you were the only one really steaming drunk when we were out or when we entertained - slurring, dribbling, red-faced, eyes-rolling, head lolling, falling asleep at the dining table by 9.30, boring the arse of people, not being able to keep up with the conversation, falling over, dancing like a dick head.

Every, fucking, time. Me getting distressed and moody on every social occasion when you behaved like this - so never enjoying anything and creating an atmosphere with F&F.

Then next day your long lie ins and hours in the bath, reading the news papers detached emotionally and physically unavailable to us all (x4dcs) as you dealt with the hang-over so could not participate in normal family life - the fun stuff and the not so fun stuff (childcare/chores/decisions etc) - so I did this all alone with seething bitterness and contempt.

Your refusal to acknowledge that you had a drink problem (even though both of your parents are/were alcoholics) - because as you were able to (i.e. forced to) totally cut out drinking Sun-Th as you couldn't function at work with hangovers and you had already lost one job -- but from your pov it was fine to get hammered on Fri & Sat and to not function as a father or husband all weekend and on holidays. So you minimised and defined yourself as a "binge drinker" not an alcoholic. N.B. AA definition is that you have a problem when your drinking impacts/upsets those around you......it did, you knew that, and did not care.

The constant lying about how much you had drunk. Every single time. 'just had one bottle of red" - so who does the empty 2 litre bottle of cider below to?

The visual image of you behaving like this on our wedding night - you stayed up in friends bedroom until 6am and then zig-zagged along the hotel corridor then slumped to the floor at our door.

The time (or the only time I was aware of it at least) that you shat yourself due to being so pissed - we were alone in a foreign capital city and the rest of NYE was spent trying to find somewhere to clean you up and dump your pants.

The time when I had just given birth, asked you not to drink whilst looking after our PFB and went up to bed...came down at 4am to find baby stuck at end of sofa and you slumped drunk.

When I had gone away for 2 nights to a family wedding leaving you in sole charge of just turned 2yo, 3yo and 5 yo - and you triumphantly declared on my return that you were now teetotal - because, your words, "I thought - Great!! she is going away, no nag, nag, nag about drinking - I can get brilliantly plastered - so I did - but the next day i couldn't cope with the kids and though I would die" - I took this as a positive - and congratulated your efforts - i did not consider the risk you exposed our v young children to and I did not appreciate that I should never have left you with them. I am deeply ashamed of this.

For the 5 years you were dry - I strangely found it deeply irritating, i suppose it was admitting that you could not do moderation i.e. normal and that the problem and the label was 100% real. All or nothing Then you started drinking again, slowly at first and now heavyish - and lies are creeping back in again.

Loads of other hideous (non drink related) dreadful behaviour after the drinking subsided then crept in (or became more apparent) and I decided to divorce - but took you back as I knew that you would keep sliding and end up the lonely dirty alchi in a filthy little flat - and you would blame me (or I would take some responsibility) for this demise - and this was not the father I wanted for my x4 dc.

But it was just not working, i could not live lie - I despise and hate him for the historic alcoholism and have separated now for good.

Maybe the Q am asking is why can't I forgive myself for enduring/enabling for so long - and even though there is not an apparent drink problem now - I am unable to get over the past - both what he did and what I didn't do (i.e. walk)

[Somethingtodo]

pocket - yes I do try to fix things for far too long - I have read the book below recommended by Tribpot earlier in the year and it has been my bible and I can see I am co-dep - but I am learning as when this new revelation landed I knew that I could not and did not want to sort it.

He did the white knuckle ride before for 5 years when he was dry - but yes he needs to get help this time to be sober.

I need to involve the older boys they need to understand what is going on. Maybe I will delegate that to him to find out how best to tell them and support them.

www.amazon.co.uk/Codependent-No-More-Controlling-Yourself-ebook/dp/B00BS027FC/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1423203941&sr=1-1&keywords=co-dependent%20no%20more&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

[MrsFring]

Has he tried AA? If not, I would urge him to give it a go; obviously it must be his choice though. 90 meetings in 90 days, a clued- up and sympathetic sponsor, all these things may work for him. Or they may not- it's a treacherous and horrible disease and it seems to have a firm grip on him and, unfortunately, you and your family.

I was once where your H is, I am now 21 years sober (not dry, the crucial difference). One thing I do know with absolute certainty is that if I picked up a drink today I would be right back to where I was on the evening of July 15 1994 by tomorrow morning. Please protect yourself and your children OP, you cannot solve this for your H he must seek help urgently or he will die.

[Somethingtodo]

Thank you MrsFring.

He has never tried anything - he saw himself as being a "binge drinker" before not "an alcoholic" - and not "a problem drinker" when he went dry 10/11 years ago for 5 years.

This is the first time he has vocalised that he is obsessed with the next drink. I am hoping that this apparent insight is a positive thing.

I will put the ball in his court now.

This has rocked my already unsteady world. I thought that I had endured him being an alcoholic - hence the "historic" in the title - then I thought I had endured him being a shit husband and father for too long once dry and then not drinking too much - then I endured the affair - and now I am enduring this revelation. I am numb and spent.

[MrsFring]

Of course you are. You have every right to be. Binge-drinking, problem drinker; all just window dressing. He's an alcoholic and if he doesn't address that fact right now he won't be alive to see his kids grow up. My very best wishes to you OP, feel free to PM me if you think I can be of any help.

[Clutterbugsmum]

He will never not drink as he still does not accept he has a drink problem, and so do you by the sound of it you are just drinking along side him so the both of you can blame each for who is drinking what.

His first love is alcohol, not you, not your children it is first last everything is where his next drink is coming from.

If this is where you want your life to be then you have to accept him as he is a drunk. Or you could make him leave and get a new life with your children

[Somethingtodo]

Cluttersbug - does he deserve this one chance to fix himself?

[Cynara]

I am the child of parents who are very much like you and your OH, by the sound of what you've written. I'm now nc with my dad, and although I love my mum I find it hard to forgive her for always putting him before her children. She says she didn't, but she allowed him to look after us when he was drunk, knew he was driving us around when drunk, knew he embarrassed us and let us down, and she didn't protect us from it.

She's distraught that our relationship has suffered, and although I'm not vindictive about it I can't change the detachment that I now feel towards her.

You've spent years pouring time and energy and your own life into this man. What has it cost you, and what has it cost your children? And is he worth it?

[fourquenelles]

I just wanted to flag up the following for you Somethingtodo. The 3 Cs are talked about here a lot when it comes to abuse but they apply equally to addictions.

I didn’t cause it
I can’t cure it
I can’t control it

From reading your posts, I get the feeling that you think, perhaps subconsciously, you can both cure and control him.

[Duckdeamon]

No, he probably does NOT deserve this chance. He has had 20 years of you basically accepting his drinking and prioritising staying together over facing up to the fact that there is a problem and doing what is best for you and for the DCs.

his drinking has caused problems, but you too have taken many decisions and need to take responsibility for that.

Is your own drinking a problem too?

[Duckdeamon]

you have endured it all having taken decisions to do so, as an adult. Your DC have endured it without any choice.

There are some interesting threads on here with posts from adult children of alcoholics: suggest you take a look.

[Somethingtodo]

Cynara thank you for sharing your experience. As I have said due to the specific pattern of his drinking I am not aware that the children have ever seen him drunk - but they have directly experienced his grumpy moody preoccupied behaviour and the stress of our dysfunctional marriage.

So we need to address this - either he shapes up or ships off right now and the children need to know why either way.

fourq yes I have seen this and it has really helped me - I understand it and I think that I practice it - eg now I really have washed my hands and the ball is firmly and squarely in his court to sort it - but in reality have I given him an ultimatum, with a timeline and consequences? No I have not yet worked out that is and communicated that.

I really am shocked that this has been going on for so long under my nose in secret and I did not see it or sense it for what is was over the past 5/6 years - so I have not been trying to fix it/cure it -- but actually on reflection yes I constantly have been trying to limit our drinking to 1/2 bottle on S&S - so yes that is controling

I feel a fool for not knowing it was happening - but how could I when my 1/2 bottle sent me to sleep.

[TheVeryThing]

'this one chance to fix himself'. I don't understand - he has had years and years to fix himself.
I am no expert on alcoholism but perhaps you would be better served thinking about what you and your children deserve.

I honestly think you need professional help (from Al-Anon or wherever) to examine why you have put up with this for so many years and why you are so fixated on his behaviour when its quite clear that you cannot control it.

I wish you and your children well, and I hope you can do the right thing for them. I have no sympathy for your husband.

[Somethingtodo]

Duck I would really love to see those threads - please could you direct me to them.

My own drinking ebbs and flows - I often go months without drinking at all - and I am the one who is always pulling us back to the max limit of 1/2 bottle F&S only drinking - but sometimes I get lazy and give into temptation after stressful days at work - at times for maybe a period of a couple of months at a time my own drinking has deteriorated to the level of 1/2 (half) bottle 7 nights a week at its worst - but I have never gone out and bought a bottle -- there is always just one in the fridge.

When the children were toddlers I was distraught with his drinking but with 3 under 3 I kept nagging and hoping and did not leave then - but one day he reached his 'rock bottom" and went dry for 5 years - so I thought the problem was sorted.

Even when he started drinking again - it was v little and has increased over the last 5/6 years but I did not consider it to be at the point of very troublesome - although in the last year of so I was back to the hyper vigilant role watching everything he drank -- but it is only now that he has told me that what I saw was just the tip of the iceberg and he has been secret binge drinking at night for years. I am truly shocked that I need not clock that.

So I can only take responsibility for staying with respect to the drink from now when I have just become aware what was going on. I have separated from him in the past due to us not getting on and what I considered was inadequate husband and father behaviours - I did not know at the time that drink was the cause/basis of that.

[Clutterbugsmum]

It depends if you want to give him yet another chance, how many are you going to subject your children too.

Just reading what you have written this would be his third/forth chance to stop.

So in my mind NO he has had plenty of chances, he has had 20 plus years to change. You threw him out, he cheated, he promised he had changed and yet within 5/6 months he back drinking if he ever stopped.

[Somethingtodo]

TheVeryThing you are 100% right - I have read the co-dep book and recognise that I dont give up - that I flog a dead horse etc. Yes I need to concentrate on totally on my flaws and motivations to understand why I tolerate this - I need to reflect grow and change myself.

[ImperialBlether]

It has suited him that you drink. 1) You can hardly argue with him about his drinking when you're drinking the same amount and 2) because it tires you out and leaves him free to sneak out his own bottle.

Really, though, you should have thought about it. There's no way an alcoholic wants the same amount as a typical low-drinker. No way. In fact, if you only had 10% of the drinks in the house, it would be seen as too much and enough to get them in a panic. Their constant worry is "What will I do if I run out?"

That's why he's been careful to have his own stash so that even if you accidentally poured slightly more into your glass (remember an alcoholic could work for Weights & Measures, they're so attuned to quantity) he would have his stash later AND he'd be able to say that you drank more than he did, making him feel virtuous and you feel guilty and more likely to get off his back.

[Duckdeamon]

"I can only take responsibility for staying with respect to the drink from now when I have just become aware what was going on".

Some serious denial going on there OP

[TheVeryThing]

I can identify with that to a certain extent, as I also find it difficult to call it quits on something that's not the working but I have never been in a situation as serious as yours.
I think you should end the marriage for good but I sense you're not going to do that yet.

[pocketsaviour]

Would you consider asking him to move out on a trial basis, until he has at least 6 months' sobriety (and attendance at some sort of treatment) under his belt?

[Somethingtodo]

Duck I had no idea he was secret drinking - I knew his consumption had increased over the last 5/6 years to half a bottle a night - this I did not think was too bad - maybe it is normalised (boiling the frog etc) and it is bad. His behaviour during this time I put down to being a grumpy middle aged miserable git - I can now see this was hangover and drink related since he told me last week that he has been secret binge drinking at the weekends.

pocket yes I need to detach and we need some defined commit ment from him. I dont want him to move out for the kids sakes - they have been thru enough with him leaving and returning. But if we cant do the space and sobriety under the same roof - then that is his only option.

[Duckdeamon]

He'd had a big problem in the past, stopped completely for some years (as far as you know) and begun drinking "normally" again 5 years ago. More recently you felt you had to monitor his levels of intake. You must (or should) have known all this wasn't good. If not, then you were in denial.

Now you do know. You seem to be seeking to use this (that you "didn't know") as justification to give him yet another chance and understand the relationship problems.

[Somethingtodo]

More recently you felt you had to monitor his levels of intake. You must (or should) have known all this wasn't good.

Yes I knew that it was not good - so was repeatedly pushing to limit and move back from the half bottle of wine a night - I saw this quantity/pattern as heavyish drinking, a bad habit, verging on problematic drinking and something that needed reining in - which I tried to do throughout.

I did not consider he had an alcoholic dependancy issue with this pattern and volume.

Now I know that the pattern and volume I was aware of, was only the tip of the iceberg, as he was secret binge drinking on top of this, I absolutely consider him an alcoholic - and I can now see that our "relationship problems" throughout were/are due to his behaviours (caused by alcohol abuse) and my reaction/response to them - whether he was drinking or not - as I say up front even when he was dry for 5 years it was far from idyllic.

He needs to get sober properly. He has been dry for

I am shell shocked at this revelation - I need to process it and look back at everything that has gone on over our whole 30 year relationship - in this context. I was naive about addiction - that it is life long and progressive. I had thought he had sorted it but could see him getting close to the edge and i thought he was keeping within and could keep within that "safe" boundary. I now know that was not possible and was not happening and he needs total abstinence and help (not from me) to get sober.

[Anniegetyourgun]

That you didn't leave before when it was worse really is no reason at all for anything you do in future, you know. I cringe at stuff I put up with when my children were small - mostly not to do with alcohol though - which it seemed to me at the time I had no choice but to go along with. Now I wouldn't stand for it for 5 minutes. We just do what we feel we have to do at the time.

I suspect some part of you might have suspected something was going on but didn't want to know. After all you've been with this man for 30 years, that's one hell of a chunk of anyone's life, and given the ages of your children you're not that old yourself. In fact you must have been not far off the age your eldest is now when you got together with their father. So whilst everyone reading your thread must have gone "oh no, wtf?" when they saw you'd let him back in, it's not at all surprising that at the first opportunity you relaxed back into the family mode you're so used to. After all, you've been plodding on, dealing with it, pushing the worst bits to the back of your mind just so you can cope, for three whole decades. That's one hell of a habit to overcome. Just a few months "dry" and the old ways sucked you back in; it's not surprising. I say forgive yourself. Forgive your husband? Not necessarily. It's your choice.

[Somethingtodo]

Thanks Annie - yes we met at school - we were children really.

I dont forgive him - I am devastated that I fought for, endured and now have tried again to make a relationship work when I did not know the full picture and what was underneath driving the issues.

I took a lot of personal responsibility for it going wrong - I thought I was unreasonable, irrational, demanding and controlling for being frustrated and wanting a better relationship, a better husband and father -- he is to the outside world Mr Nice Guy - v mild mannered, gentle and kind.

I took full responsibility and blame from my children for ending the marriage at the beginning of the year. I took full responsibility and blame from my children for being frustrated and angry with their gentle Dad when he did not step up to the responsibilities of family life throughout the marriage before that.

But I now know that he has been "absent" for all those 30 years due to alcoholism - presenting either as the hideous stuff (outlined in my OP) for the first 20 years, then the agitated, edgy, smug (and I now understand deluded) teetotaler during the 5 'dry years' - and then the recent subsequent progression to heavy drinking - with me putting in limits - over the past 5/6 years but behind the scenes was the secret weekend binge drinking.....

Just officially put the ball in his court this morning - I asked him if he was an alcoholic - he said "No" - he then minimised the version of events that he told me on Sun 12th - he now says that he has only been secret binge drinking once a month on a sat night for the past 9 months - he said last week in his confession that it was every F&S for years......

He says that he is finding not drinking easy and will go see a counsellor if I want him to but states that he does not need to go to AA.

This is clearly unworkable - he is not at a place where he thinks his problem is significant (this is how he was in the first 20 years - "not an alcoholic - just a binge drinker - look I can stop" - but he could never moderate and he only stopped once) - and in fact he has only decided to stop drinking this time because I found him pissed on the sofa.

I need to move on with my children - I will join al anon and take the older ones with me. I know our relationship is over - I am not taking this on again.

[TheySayIamparanoid]

If he has had contact with aa and knows anything about the steps then maybe what's putting him off admitting he's alcoholic is that he'd have to face up to what he has done.
It's very difficult for some people to make that list of all people they have harmed and become willing to make amends!
My dad never could, although he has been dry for 20 years (afaik as have been nc for the last 10yrs!)
I did it/still do it and it was horrendous to face up to how I was and I still sometimes feel guilty.
But I'm sober 9 years now and I know I could very quickly have that life/mindset back if I started drinking again.
If you want to stay together and support him through this then he has to admit his problem to himself and seek help.