Possible gaslighting? What can I do?

[LoveWA]

I don't even know how to start this post or whether I'm going to sound like a raving loony but I'm so fed up and confused I need perspective, opinions, advice.. I'd be grateful for whatever anyone can offer as I'm blank.

As with most relationships, occasionally I get upset over something my DH has done or not done or said or whatever. This might happen maybe once a week or maybe once in two weeks. His reaction is starting to wear me down.

It usually goes that I tell my DH that I'm upset and why, as clearly as I can. Immediately he gets extremely defensive in body language (he stands still, stiffens up etc) but he puts on a confused face and pretends he hasn't heard or understood what I'm saying. So I have to repeat myself clearly again, using the same language, tone and words that I have just said. He generally then shrugs his shoulders as if to say I don't know what your talking about. So I explain myself again. Then he will either deny or say I'm wrong or tell me to get over things... but never ask me questions to see where I'm coming from, to see why I might have been so upset, never explains where he is coming from or why he might have acted the way he did.

I don't like to think of myself as a pushover, and I know I am articulate and precise when I speak (although that might seem a stretch going by this post sorry), so I generally persist with my point of view while looking at his blank expression. It's usually such a faff at this stage to keep repeating myself to someone who is clearly not interested and not going to engage with me. He goes quiet and won't talk to me, won't answer me, totally shuts down. Its so frustrating and exhausting that I generally let things go for the sake of peace, and if I'm honest, because I hate to see myself turn into some sort of nagging needy wife, so I generally say what's on my mind, explain why I wasn't impressed and then just get on with things. Our kids are tiny to we're both always busy in the house anyway.

However, in the last two weeks, two occasions have arisen where I have persisted with him when I felt he was in the wrong but ignoring me when I said I was upset. One occasion was after he said I was being lazy over a certain matter. I was not being lazy but I thought as we are both so busy day to day that he probably wasn't aware of the effort I was making and I tried to explain everything I was doing to show him I was not being lazy, but he wouldn't listen to me and instead shouted at me that I was just looking for a fight, and he wasn't going to stand there while I tried to pick a fight with him.. but I was simply defending myself against his accusation and he wouldn't listen.

The second time was this evening. I became upset with him after some really insensitive comments were made by a third party and I said I wish he had defended me and shown a bit of loyalty.

He again said I was trying to pick a fight and he wasn't going to listen to it, he stormed out of the room and a while later went to bed (don't live in the Uk).

I know in the morning he will go to work, I will do my day with the kids, he will come home and we'll do dinner and bed time routine and it won't be mentioned again.

But it is really starting to wear me down that nothing gets properly discussed or worked through. I have tried raising things again when heads are cooler and the kids are in bed but the same thing happens, I get met with a blank face, a shrug of the shoulders and eventually told I'm spoiling for a fight and he's not going to give it to me.

Is this gaslighting? Or is it just withdrawal on his part? Am I just a horrible nag? I feel like he can't cope with heavy discussions or even down right difficult discussions so he won't have them with me. But then sometimes I think he just hates to admit he might have been wrong and might need to apologise. He never apologises for anything, ever.

Is there something I can do to break this pattern and get him to engage with me?

I'm a bit late to this thread and don't know if the OP is still reading, but I'm another one with a similar H.

I can completely identify with the frustration of trying to explain opinions, feelings, points of view to someone who you eventually realise just isn't interested in any viewpoint other than his own. I can also identify with that awful intense knotted feeling inside that builds and builds until you do something extreme, like hitting the wall (or in my case, smashing something) - because you think that if you do something that extreme then they will have to recognise how strongly you feel about something. But they don't, they just use it as more evidence that you are the one with the problem.

People like this have such fragile egos that they honestly can't tell the difference between a genuine difference of opinion and an attack - any difference of opinion is automatically viewed it as an attack and a hostile act.

Although I am still in my marriage, I have managed to change the way I respond to H and as a result I am much less stressed and feel mentally much stronger. In case you find it useful, here are a few of the things that helped me.

• You need to convince yourself as far as possible (as opposed to just nodding when internet strangers say so) that it is not you, it is him. I found it incredibly helpful to realise that my H was not unique, that his behaviour followed well-recognised patterns. If you search for the "Support for those in emotionally abusive relationships" thread on the Relationships board, the first post has lots of good links and book recommendations. Lundy Bancroft (Why Does He Do That?) is a good place to start. Don't be put off by the term "abusive". His behaviour is abusive, but it may take you a while to be able to acknowledge that (it took me more than a year). Start with terms like "manipulative" or "controlling" if they seem less scary.

• The only behaviour you have control over is your own (cliched but true). So you can't change what he does (no matter how many times he makes you jump through the "explaining" hoop), but you can change how you respond to him. Start by not leaping to defend yourself or explain - the minute you try to do this you set up an unbalanced dynamic where you are obliged to justify yourself to him. Try to step back mentally and observe what he is doing. As a previous poster said, this sort of behaviour is done for gain. What does he gain by behaving like this - more free time, more working time, fewer domestic responsibilities, more say in decision-making? What tactics does he use? It helps to prepare a bland non-committal response that allows you to respond but buys you thinking time, such as "If you say so" or "It's interesting you should see it like that". I found it helpful to keep a journal of "incidents" - it helped me to go over what happened outside the stress of the moment.

• "Detach" is a useful mantra. Don't get wound up or visibly upset. Stay calm, speak quietly. He wants you upset because then he's won - you've lost it so clearly you're the one with the problem. This takes monumental effort - in my case, it often felt like I was mentally putting on armour during "bad" conversations - but it does get easier as you feel more empowered.

• When you have had some practice at picking up on tactics/behaviour patterns, you can start to call him on them. so if he tells you that you are wrong about something, you can say "Why do you think that my opinion is worth less than yours?" If he accuses you of starting an argument, you can say "I'm expressing my opinion - why are you choosing to turn this into an argument?" Framing things in terms of his behaviour being a choice that he is making is a good way of restoring some of the balance in the relationship by putting responsibility for his behaviour firmly back onto him.

Doing the above won't work miracles, but it will make you feel more in control of yourself. It isn't a recipe for fixing your marriage, or a suggestion that this is how you should live forever. One of two things will happen. Either he will realise that you won't put up with this any longer and mend his ways, or (more realistically, I'm afraid), he won't change and then you have a decision on your hands.

I'm sorry, OP. It is utterly shit, that realisation that the person you loved, that you thought loved you, is in fact a self-centred twat who only cares about catering to his own needs, even if it's at the expense of yours. I haven't found a way out yet, so perhaps I shouldn't be offering advice. But ime there are things you can do to improve your situation while you take stock and make decisions for the future.

Good post MrBuster - the fragile ego is spot on and those are exactly the tactics that seem to work best here too. Whether or not it is worth it is a different point (I realise you acknowledge this too…). I can keep calm when I am feeling happy and rested and well but when I'm not I can't muster the resources to be so tactical. And then I flip - and am 'an angry woman' according to him. So whilst others have banged heads against walls or smashed something I have (on 2 occasions over years and years) lashed out at him. Which I am not proud of and makes me immediately in the wrong.

But as a way to bide your time, yes this is a useful approach. Detach...

Easier said than done. I have lashed out once too and I swear I will never do it again. Anyone is capable of anything given the circumstances. I have just rang a solicitor (took me all morning to pluck up the courage) not open until Jan 2nd it was the feeling of disappointment I felt that I know how much I want out. I can postpone this but I know I will be repeating the same story this time next year if I don't take action now. He will never ever change. Stubborn beyond words. I am also filled with dread for what the 2015 holds for me and my children but I will do my best to make a peaceful and comfortable home for us all. Anyone any advice on divorce and how to get through it (and stay sane). thanks

Thanks MrBuster, cheese and probably.

Yes I'm still here but we're away from home for a few days staying in a place with shit internet connection so I can't get on here properly.

Thank you for the advice MrBusted I will read it a few times.

We had a quick chat yesterday when the kids fell asleep in the car. He said he sees now what he was doing, said it wasn't fair on me and he only realised how upset I was after the banging head on wall incident. He seemed genuine but I also fear I can't believe a word of it. I honestly don't know.

I mentioned counselling again and again he said no, we don't need it, we can talk about anything. I persisted I said no, I can talk about anything but you shut me down constantly. He said he sees that now and he was stressed, he won't do it again.

I feel I have to keep trying, and yet if his assurances turn out to be completely empty I'll feel like a mug.

Cheese I'm sorry to head you're heading for divorce this year, I am interested in advice you get about it too.

Probably, yes I guess I naively think counselling can "fix" him, us, me.. I'm glad you got something from it even if he didn't. I guess it proves the cliche we can only change yourself.

He said he sees now what he was doing, said it wasn't fair on me and he only realised how upset I was after the banging head on wall incident

OP, it's easy for him to say the right thing, it's whether he can do the right thing that really matters. I'm not surprised he's now apparently seen the light after you reacted so strongly. Behaviour like this tends to work in cycles of "nasty" then "nice". "Nice" behaviour (including apparent epiphanies about how badly they've treated you) tends to be trotted out when an abusive person knows that they have gone too far and need to get you back under control before you think about things too much. The conciliatory behaviour is designed to make you think "I must have imagined/exaggerated his poor behaviour, because look - he's so nice now!". Or you think you have finally got through to them. I don't think that you shouldn't take it at face value either.

if his assurances turn out to be completely empty I'll feel like a mug

It is reasonable to take some time to see how things go, and even if they don't go well it isn't wasted - if you use that time to really think about and evaluate the patterns in your relationship, if nothing else you will gain insight and be more clear-headed. Being hopeful doesn't make you a mug, it makes you a normal human being who wishes for the life she thought she had.

If I were you I wouldn't go to counselling with him at the moment. Couples counselling isn't recommended with manipulative or abusive partners, because they tend to manipulate the counselling setting to suit their own agenda. You might find going to counselling on your own to be more helpful at this stage. Having to verbalise and discuss your thoughts is a very good way of getting things straight in your own mind.

Thank you again, MrBuster. Yes he is being mr. nice now.. which actually means he's just being normal..! Listening, talking, open etc.

At least this time when he reverts I'll notice the change in him straight away and deal with it straight away.

Yes from the comments here I think counselling on my own is the way to go.

Here I am nearly a year later reading over this post.

I never went to counselling in the end. But it has been a year of soul searching.

He has made effort to listen to me since last December.

But what I've started to realise is that he is a perfectionist. Nothing in the now is ever enough. His happiness is always dependent on the next plan. The house is never tidy enough, the food in the house is never healthy enough (or when it's healthy food it's never filling enough), our savings account can never be big enough, his cloths are never right, he always needs new clothes. The guys who work for him never work hard enough. He has a never ending to do list, and there's never enough time to do it all. He says he's the happiest he's ever been in his life but he hates our house, wants a new car, and everything will be perfect when we move house (I've heard it before). Im never enough. I went back to work as he wouldn't hear of me staying home (and I was feeling a bit isolated at home). He was happy as we were saving some money. I've recently quit that job and he badgered me for weeks about finding a new one. I told him flat out I need to be with the kids for a while. He is 'supporting' me in my decision. In other words he's telling our family and friends he supports me but I get all of the begrudging digs and comments privately. How we'll never be able to save and get ahead without me earning.

But what he thinks is enough is a bottomless pit, anything I do will never be enough.

He has many good qualities. He's a great dad, the kids love him.

But the kindness I fell for only shows up in rare glimpses now.

Not sure why I'm posting really. I've no one to talk about it to I guess.

Sounds like my ex OP nothing in his life will ever be good enough - he's not going to change - he's never going to be happy.

My new BF is so content in himself - I saw it from the outset - it's a joy to be around someone so positive.

Oh love it sounds really, really wearing. Being around someone who is constantly critical like that must be slowly shredding your self-confidence.

I think you sound very self-reflective and self-aware (far more so than the majority of people). You've really thought about your situation, and you've identified the precise dynamic that is at play of controlling and critical behaviours.

I think a great deal depends on how open your DP is going to be to the idea that these behaviours and particularly the fact that he can never live in the moment are stressful and difficult for his family. From your earlier posts, it sounds as though he is incredibly defensive and unlikely to accept any suggestion that his actions are less than perfect. If that remains the case, I think it really reduces your options because you need his cooperation.

In fact, I can only really think of two ways in which you can be happy in future. One idea would be to persuade him (possibly with ultimatums) that counselling might be a good idea. I really think that working with the right person could help both of you (chances are, this perfectionism and controlling behaviour is actually a manifestation of his anxiety and fear). The second is simply to leave and accept that he'll still be a great, kind father to your kids - but he's not the right man for you.

I'm so sorry you're going through this. You deserve ever so much better.

"anything I do will never be enough."

And yet you're choosing to stay.

Isn't it time to get out, OP? Isn't it time to start standing up for yourself and saying no?

You're the only one who is willing and able do that, you know.

yes he is being abusive , op. Do you think he will change? This is the model your cc are learning and their internal choice is to be you or to be him . Where did he learn this pattern of behaviour? You can change the choices for your cc and for yourself.

This thread rings bells with me. I had a platonic friendship like this. The behaviour of this person was just as described and highly irritating and upsetting. When I reacted I was labelled as difficult.

I've known a few people like this, been in relationships with a couple of them too. Nothing is ever enough because they don't feel like they are enough, for whatever reason. So you try and help their self-esteem, or try to make them happy, or to look inside themselves and support them to work on these issues....but even that is never enough.

These 'types' - they just cannot or will not do the work they need to do emotionally to fix whatever part of them is broken. They would much rather project their unhappiness out of themselves on everyone else, blame others for their misery and generally behave abusively.

There is nothing you can do to make it better. You can twist yourself up into a pretzel for X number of years and win short-term 'gains' in terms of pleasing them for a short while, but eventually even those sorts of emotional gymnastics will not be enough either.

The kindness which only shows up in small glimpses? Thats the falling away of the idea that you are the latest thing to complete, fix or make his life perfect.

It's been a year and no real change...because he has done pretty much zero emotional work to take on any responsibility, instead using you, the world and everyone in it as reasons for his disatisfaction. He really won't change.

The worst thing you can do is fall into the trap of believing that if you support him enough he can get to grips with his issues. People like this will suck that up, and then some more and then criticise you for it too. Then expect more.

They are like emotional black holes.

Wow thanks for the kind and thoughtful posts.

Shove I agree they appear to be the only two options. In fact, I am realising I only have one real option. I'm over the notion of getting him/us into counselling. I'm just over it. Last year when I was desperately grasping to hope that something could be done to change him I thought it could work. I know now from reflecting on it all and reflecting on all of the helpful comments here, it wouldn't help much at all. He'd still be him, I'd still be me.

As you say norest, even doing the emotional work wouldn't be enough for him. It's too deep, it's all he knows.

So I guess I know deep down I either live with him (and people do live with worse) or I leave.

Yes gatewalker I know all of a sudden I have to leave.

And yet there has to be some time between that realisation and the physical act of separating permenantly I think. How long, I don't know.

I'm not making excuses. It's not about finances, logistics. But now is not time. All I can say is there is a time for doing things that I can't touch or see but I can feel. It's not time yet.

Thank you everyone.

Here I am 4.5 years after my OP having a quiet cup of coffee when this thread popped into my phone Internet browser completely randomly (it seems, I have no idea how at any rate).

Reading back over my posts breaks my heart. The responses I got here literally changed my life, opened my eyes, woke me to the obvious truth that I wasn’t willing to look at.

I left him eventually. When the fighting got so bad that he wouldn’t give me a minutes peace without needing ‘to sort everything out’ which was nonsense speak for wanting me to comply with his every whim without question. When he would physically block me leaving the house, when he tried pulling me out of the car to stop me going for a 10 minute drive to get a break from him. When he wouldn’t let me go for a walk in the evening without calling me home because he didn’t want to be alone with the kids for 30 mins. When he wouldn’t let the kids have any down time because he couldn’t himself sit still without constant drama and ‘doing’. When he would wait until 11pm at night when I was exhausted to pick a fight with me, every night. When he constantly moaned that he just wanted the ‘old me’ back, even though I was 10 years older and a mother now and there was no way I could be the same person. When he wouldn’t let me work because he didn’t want to help with child care but wouldn’t let me stay home because I was just wasting ‘his money’. I could go on.

I had no idea how bad things could get. When I finally left he suddenly wanted to go to counselling, after he had refused for years, and when I wouldn’t then go he told people I refused and he had tried his best.

Of course he told people I was crazy, mad, selfish. What sort of mother takes her kids and leaves the family home etc. He took me to court and tried to take the kids from me on grounds of my ‘erratic behaviour’. I wasn’t even surprised by then. There were many more attacks, too many to mention.

I left 3 years ago now. We share access and our children are thriving and happy, which is all I really care about. We did go to co-parenting counselling with a woman whom I can only describe as a gift from heaven. She worked with us so patiently over many months to help us to a place where the kids get the best of both of us, and we have managed to make tentative peace with each other.

I haven’t moved on relationship wise, I don’t look for it, I don’t date. I don’t want him back either.

I guess I’m posting now for any women who are at the stage I was at in my OP and wondering how on earth they can move on. You can move on but it’s not easy. It’s frightening, lonely, isolating. But you regain yourself, your full self, good and bad, without being torn down into a shadow of a person that you don’t even know or recognise. It’s not as easy as saying that’s worth it. It is what it is. Life just moves on. I’m still very much in the process.

Well done, you're building a great life for yourself

That's a pretty positive update, I'm glad you got out, it sounded soul-destroying.

I thought this was a zombie thread until I read your update.

Bloody well done. It sounds as if it has been a long hard journey and he sounds like an appalling person. I'm very glad you and the kids are in a happier place now. You deserve it.

My husband does this. When I raise something him he acts like he doesn’t know what I mean, I’m being completely unreasonable and (rather than try to understand) completely dismisses it. He talks over me. He literally speaks and then walks out of the room when I start talking and then comes back and speaks again. There’s always a reason or an excuse - he is making a cup of tea, for example.

Sometimes I wonder if he has a comprehension problem. We argued yesterday and again this morning and then both left the house. I called him to see if he’s ok, say sorry etc. I then was about to call to ask if he wants to meet for lunch and he called me first. It was to ask for a favour (and a slightly controversial one). He claims not to understand why it wasn’t a good time to ask for a favour and why I might be upset that his only attempt to get in touch today was to ask me to do something for him. I explained it three times and he still didn’t get it. There was nothing more to say then...

I don’t think they change OP especially if he knows you feel financially stuck with him

Gosh OP I have just seen your update. Hadn’t realised it was an old thread. Well done you!

1000000Dreams, you’re wondering if your husband has a comprehension problem. As someone posted to me a few years ago upthread, my ex didn’t have a listening problem, he had an abuse problem. I denied that to myself until I couldn’t anymore.

Thank you so much for your update OP, and for giving hope and strength to women in a similar position to you. You sound like an incredibly strong person and I wish you and your children the happiness you deserve.

I'm a long time lurker who never really posts but I just wanted to say well done with your update. When I was reading your initial post I saw the year and thought I wonder if she left. My DH can be like this although I have began taking a calmer approach to it, it hasn't seemed to change much of anything other than get me to a better place of less stress. Anyway, I'm so happy for you, and well done again.

I really don't know where to start. So hopefully someone can help me understand exactly where I'm going wrong. My wife doesn't like any of my family never discusses anything about our relationship and when I ask it ends up in an argument. I love my wife dearly and would do anything for her. I share the cooking cleaning shopping etc so it's not that I am not doing my share of the housework. My wife luckily earns more than me and fair play she successful in her job and I admire her for doing so well. I do my share with the kids and do all the diy and gardening without any prompting. Our sex life is zero and after 2 kids she looks still amazing to me.
She won't talk to me other than about our children she got an opinion on everything and mine doesn't matter. If I'm doing things she dictates on how should do it.
I try and show her how much I love her but pushes me away. There's no intimacy what so ever and all I want to do is throw my arms around her and tell her I love her.
She doesn't want to visit my family yet I see hers all the time her friends too. I don't ask for nothing only for I wish we could go back to the couple we were and talk without there's been an argument. Can someone please help to see what exactly I'm doing wrong