Possible gaslighting? What can I do?

[LoveWA]

I don't even know how to start this post or whether I'm going to sound like a raving loony but I'm so fed up and confused I need perspective, opinions, advice.. I'd be grateful for whatever anyone can offer as I'm blank.

As with most relationships, occasionally I get upset over something my DH has done or not done or said or whatever. This might happen maybe once a week or maybe once in two weeks. His reaction is starting to wear me down.

It usually goes that I tell my DH that I'm upset and why, as clearly as I can. Immediately he gets extremely defensive in body language (he stands still, stiffens up etc) but he puts on a confused face and pretends he hasn't heard or understood what I'm saying. So I have to repeat myself clearly again, using the same language, tone and words that I have just said. He generally then shrugs his shoulders as if to say I don't know what your talking about. So I explain myself again. Then he will either deny or say I'm wrong or tell me to get over things... but never ask me questions to see where I'm coming from, to see why I might have been so upset, never explains where he is coming from or why he might have acted the way he did.

I don't like to think of myself as a pushover, and I know I am articulate and precise when I speak (although that might seem a stretch going by this post sorry), so I generally persist with my point of view while looking at his blank expression. It's usually such a faff at this stage to keep repeating myself to someone who is clearly not interested and not going to engage with me. He goes quiet and won't talk to me, won't answer me, totally shuts down. Its so frustrating and exhausting that I generally let things go for the sake of peace, and if I'm honest, because I hate to see myself turn into some sort of nagging needy wife, so I generally say what's on my mind, explain why I wasn't impressed and then just get on with things. Our kids are tiny to we're both always busy in the house anyway.

However, in the last two weeks, two occasions have arisen where I have persisted with him when I felt he was in the wrong but ignoring me when I said I was upset. One occasion was after he said I was being lazy over a certain matter. I was not being lazy but I thought as we are both so busy day to day that he probably wasn't aware of the effort I was making and I tried to explain everything I was doing to show him I was not being lazy, but he wouldn't listen to me and instead shouted at me that I was just looking for a fight, and he wasn't going to stand there while I tried to pick a fight with him.. but I was simply defending myself against his accusation and he wouldn't listen.

The second time was this evening. I became upset with him after some really insensitive comments were made by a third party and I said I wish he had defended me and shown a bit of loyalty.

He again said I was trying to pick a fight and he wasn't going to listen to it, he stormed out of the room and a while later went to bed (don't live in the Uk).

I know in the morning he will go to work, I will do my day with the kids, he will come home and we'll do dinner and bed time routine and it won't be mentioned again.

But it is really starting to wear me down that nothing gets properly discussed or worked through. I have tried raising things again when heads are cooler and the kids are in bed but the same thing happens, I get met with a blank face, a shrug of the shoulders and eventually told I'm spoiling for a fight and he's not going to give it to me.

Is this gaslighting? Or is it just withdrawal on his part? Am I just a horrible nag? I feel like he can't cope with heavy discussions or even down right difficult discussions so he won't have them with me. But then sometimes I think he just hates to admit he might have been wrong and might need to apologise. He never apologises for anything, ever.

Is there something I can do to break this pattern and get him to engage with me?

Honestly, you could discuss it for years. not sure you'll get anywhere.

Think about this harsh reality that you've already told us in your own words.

He is happiest with the relationship when you feel spent, ground down.

It's not about how he behaves (not only, but about what he wants). That is disgraceful. What he wants is a version of you with no YOU left.

You just might be able to make him behave better (although I don't know how) but is that a win situation for you? to stay with a man who behaves only just well enough to avoid crossing your line and making you leave?

You have power, but not to make him change. The power you have is to put an end to it.

love - I think my question to you last night was beyond daft. don't know why I wrote it. I suppose because it was the question I always asked myself and answered no to. then he ground me down. I apologise.

Tink - thank you for your post - I was being ridiculous..

how are you feeling?

Love-you are so not being ridiculous. I'm in your position too. For years I thought I was going mad, with my concerns being shrugged off. It's a form of bullying-making you think that things that matter to you are really not important at all. It's so frustrating as there's always doubt that you're getting things wrong, that it's you that's the problem, not him. It's so bloody subtle and calculated to grind you down. My darling P has been doing this for years to me; in one case I lost my temper with him in front of dd and guess who ended up going to anger management counselling, spending 500£ in the process? Yes, me.

Thankfully, I've got the measure of him now-30 years too late, but in the end I caught him cheating. And he's still shrugging off what he's done. It beggars belief-no remorse shown whatever.

I've detached from him now-emotionally at least- and only speak to him via text. This is the only way I can stop his attitude getting to me.

So please don't think it's you. This is not the behaviour of a decent, honourable man. This is the action of a cunning, manipulative, person. What next? Cheating? Financial abuse?

Take care, OP.

Well I tried to talk about things again. He did the same again. I got so worked up with frustration that I don't know what happened to me, some sort of nervous breakdown. I started pacing the room, crying, shaking my head, actually started physically banging my head off the wall. He grabbed me and was saying what's wrong what's wrong.
I said I can't talk to you you just tell me I'm looking for a fight. He looked at me with disgust and said you need help.

I walked out of the house and went walking for a few hours. Back home now, ignoring each other.

Oh you poor poor thing..
You have been so worn down by this.
Please stay strong, I expect there will be some very good advice along shortly..but start planning your exit, right now, this can't go on !

What things do you need to talk with him about? Will you list your issues?

This might help.

Are you ok? Head banging on the wall does seem quite an extreme reaction.

You need to be stronger than ever now. This will be completely twisted to be a problem with you. You need to stay calm. Agree that your reaction has brought things to a head, if he brings it up. Agree you don't want to feel that frustrated again and that you need to separate. If you have the strength, try to get out of this situation. Don't get drawn into an argument about your failings. I remember getting into an argument about something awful my ex had done, and it becoming about my "aggression". It's absolutely a fight you won't win, except by getting out.

I think it does sound, as others have said, that you are being silenced. He is making it 'too much bother' to have a reasonable conversation about issues. I am on the verge of ending my relationship ( other issues as well) but this has been a real and very frustrating feature of it. When you described the repeating yourself, I could picture myself and what I have experienced with my husband.
I don't know what the solution is. But I have come to realise that if someone does not recognise the problem and no matter what you do, you can't negotiate a better deal for yourself, then it might be time to make a hard decision.

My ex eventually wore me down much the same and I ended up self harming.

This relationship is not good for you and I hope you can begin to realise this now and take steps to end it.

Sorry you are going through this. Is there any way you can get some time away from him?

Sounds like it is all coming to a head . I spent 30 years with a man like this. I didn't know it had a name of gas lighting .

I'm quite a humourous person. I love to make people laugh and often turn the joke on myself. we all do it in our family, there's always abit of loving ' banter' going on. Not with him there wasn't. If we were in company and there was a bit of gentle teasing going on he would come out with something vicious and nasty. Eventually you find yourself squeezed into a round hole and you lose that playful side of you so that everything becomes a lot less humourless .

Eventually he did me a favour and left for another woman but not without torturing me first.

I had counselling too. He managed to make me the problem. Then I would get blamed for being too clever. You can't win with a bully. He will wear and grind you down.

thankfully my lovely new man, gets the joke, joins in and never takes it too far because it's done with love and mutual respect.

Please don't waste the rest of your life on this cold, self centered man. He will drag you down. He's doing things to hurt you because he can.

Poppy field had some good advice.

Banging your head of the wall seems quite an extreme reaction, hope you are ok now & feeling calmer.

My DP can be frustrating at times simply because he really doesn't like arguments, while I may see it as a discussion & trying to make him understand my point he sees it as confrontational & a fight.
He will walk away from me or not answer, which makes me more frustrated.

He doesn't do it to be a dick or to silence me, his childhood had a lot of arguing & fighting & he thinks a discussion is a fight so he just won't get into it with me, it really stresses him.

I can usually discuss things later on & he will say sorry but his first reaction is always the same.

Could there be similarities with your husband?

This sounds like my ex. You cannot change him as PPs have said he has no motivation to change as the situation suits him down to the ground as it stands. A plus is that you are starting to really see him. There will be a certain amount of jealousy there although it will be buried deep. He will be jealous that you are bright and 'together' and this may well be the root of how he treats you as he is consciously or subconsciously trying to level the pair of you by tearing you down a bit. In my case it drove me utterly crazy and I left several times. I was so worn down and ill in the end it took me ages to actually realise what had actually gone on. If only MN was around back then! Take care how you proceed as he will label you as a nut now because that suits his narrative. Draw strength from this episode though as even in your darkest hour he was taking the piss and his personality is exposed for you to see and use this to leave without regret of any sort. With me is was his reaction to my DMum committing suicide that had me seeing him for the nasty vile creature he was despite all the 'window dressing' he had used prior to keep me hooked. After several years I am able to pity him instead of the frustration and fear I felt for the four years I was with him.

Thank you all for your kind posts.

Feeling shook this evening but ok. I know my reaction this morning was extreme.

We had a chat this evening. He said all the things he knows he has to say.. he loves me, he's worried, he doesn't like fighting blah blah it's all lip service. At least I know that now.

I suggested marriage counselling in the new year to help us communicate (because he wouldn't be able to shut me up there). He said no. I am going to insist. If/when I do walk away for good I need to know in my heart that I did all I could to work things out.

Thanks for listening and the amazing advice, it really helps me working through it all.

Im sorry not read all comments but my partner is the same. Your not alone. He says " im not doing this now you carry on" after he has said something hurtful and im telling him im upset.

He will say something awful then say " if u know its not true why is it bothering u then"

Its very hurtful because i feel my opinion doesnt matter, im sorry this is happening to you, when i want to say something even just two words he tells me to write down, as he doesnt want to hear it right now.

OMG this could me writing this. Thank you for giving me a light bulb moment... I have been ignored... stonewalled, whatever you want to call it for 11 months out of 12 in 2014. When I have tried to discuss anything that he doesn't want to discuss....have you finished now walks away.. gets in the car... and stops talking when he gets back....or I haven't got to listen to this shit is another one he likes to use (very mature). Its funny because like you explained it is a gradual thing that you don't tend to notice when the children are growing up because as a mother and wife you are trying to keep all the balls in air playing happy families....so tend to break the ice over a upset rather than keep a quarrel going. If I am honest deep down I always knew that if I didn't go to him and say lets sort this out that he would never come to me ( how right I was). Anyway after a rubbish xmas I have decided to go first thing Monday morning to the solicitors but was still beating myself up about this. Reading your post has given me clarity and I know I am doing the right thing. You sound like a very strong together kind of person and this is exactly how I see myself and I can not allow this man to destroy me anymore as there has been days where I couldn't function. PEOPLE CAN ONLY TREAT US BAD IF WE LET THEM....I WILL NOT EXCEPT ANY MORE CRAP IN MY LIFE. What is the saying out with old..... in with the new for 2015. Thank you so much. I will let you know what happens believe me I could write a book on this subject. Google stonewalling. Good luck and listen to your intuition.

Happy and Cheese I'm sorry to hear you are living with this type of aggression too. It makes everyday so difficult.

Yes Cheese it has been a gradual thing and it's only in the last few weeks when a few issues arose at once that I realised how powerful a pattern it was, powerful for him that it.

Reading the replies to my post has been such an eye opener, I can't even describe. I've gone from feeling like I am the problem in our relationship to seeing him for what he is.

Yesterday when we were talking it out he said he doesn't feel close to be because we haven't been intimate in a couple of weeks. I said the thought of doing anything with someone who won't even listen to me or acknowledge my point of view is beyond me. I can't even hug him.

I feel at a total loss at the moment. We have a lot of things planned with family over the next few days. I feel numb. I'm going through the motions of daily life with the kids but In my head I'm thinking about the logistics of splitting up. I am pinning all my hopes on doing counselling together. I have no idea what it entails, the kinds of things we will be asked, whether it will help. It's the only hope I have at the moment.

Cheese I'm glad you had a lightbulb moment. I've had one too from all of the great advice and comments.

Me too OP - I have also been gradually silenced. My h has increased the unreasonable behaviour to such levels that he now disappears for days for space (we have 2 dc) and then tells me to "get over it" if I try to discuss my or the children's distress. I would never have believed I could be so stonewalled and controlled.

I suppose it is just subtle at first and accompanied by some decent, loving behaviour. Fast forward a decade and then it is almost all vile. So today, a mildy critical comment that he hadn't got food for the dc (I have done ALL the catering over xmas) was met with a comment that I am a 'miserable cow', a shove out of the way and withdrawal upstairs. Silenced again - and yes, I made another meal for the dc.

So we all need to get out I think. Before this seems more and more normal both to us and our children.

You have my sympathies.

Don't do counselling with him OP.

It's not recommended when there is emotional abuse in the relationship. The abuser twists the advice and will use it as another method of manipulation.

Definitely get some counselling for yourself though, to help give you the strength to leave.

probably I'm sad to read your post. I guess maybe it's a common thing..?

I'm similar, I do all the food shopping/cooking. He needs detailed instructions before he can feed one of the children. That too is tiring. Also I buy sweets and rubbish he asks me why I'm wasting money on it. If I don't buy it he asks what did I buy there's nothing to eat. I'm always doing something wrong.

Hadley oh right.. I hadn't thought of that. But I think, if I can just say my piece in an objective setting with an objective third party to help us, I can leave then knowing I've been heard? Or that I've done all I can to be heard?

Leaving emotionally wouldn't be a massive problem for me. It's the financial and living arrangements that have me stumped. I don't work, have no property or pension. I have what he gives me. I had a career but I've had a break from it, I would struggle I find a decent job I think. One that would cover rent, bills, childcare and so on. I know i would find a way but it's overwhelming.

I think I need a check up from the neck up. Is there a school they all went to train for this. Similarities....need to be asked to do anything. If you ask why haven't you given the children food... answer... you didn't ask me to. If you ask them too they go all quiet on you. I have been told I am cold and unloving... but you cant just turn on like a tap. I think you can sort anything out if you discuss it and that's what brings you close together. When things build up resentment sets in and so the beginning of the end.... believe in yourself worth and share with someone close as this can make you feel so isolated that you feel that you are losing your mind. xx

I think the first thing you need to do is let go of the idea that you can 'make him understand'.

You will only ever feel 'heard' if he shows he's listening. Which he never will.

So just forget it.

Yes OP - after over a year of counselling, I can only agree with Hadley. He sat there but I'm not sure much sunk in. He has now ditched the process (and is angry with the counsellor) because he says it focused too much on him rather than me. I wonder why?! It was worth it though, just to be heard and to see that I wasn't going mad. He has been 'psychologically violent' according to our counsellor and that has a massive effect on my self esteem and judgement.

Like you am also in an impossibly vulnerable situation financially and practically which makes it much harder. But I suppose all of that is nothing when weighed against the damage that is being done. From a distance Love (and Cheese and everyone else) I can see that your situation will only get worse and you deserve so much more. I just need to see the same for me