"But we took you to stately homes!!!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

It's December 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Milli, it isn't your fault you have gone NC. You did it in order to protect your sanity and to stop it from sliding down into a dark hole IYSWIM. You can stop blaming yourself and feeling guilty as the people you're NC with are the only ones responsible for their actions, and it's those actions that caused you to go NC in the first place.

This thread is a safe haven and full of support when you find you may need it. Even if it's just to hear someone seeing your situation from a different angle and offer advice on how to deal with nasty people, then it's not a bad thing. At the end of the day, you need to do what is best for the protection of your MH.

I must go to bed now, but I'll be on tomorrow again. Good night and take care all you lovely ladies

Thank you for listening Chiggers. I am away for a couple of days but will return to the thread when I return.

to everyone

spiders in a nutshell yes i guess it is that old chestnut. or the fear of getting used to it and then having to relearn total independence and needing nothing again. messed up and way less than it once was but yes, guess i haven't slayed that one totally yet. you?

Good morning Spiders, Honey and the rest of you lovely ladies. How are you all ?

Hello folks. All well after the festivities? NC because the next post is...

Eccellenté!

I've had some interesting information. It turns out that most of the problems on DM's side of the family were (and still are) caused by undiagnosed ASD. DM was violent, but I didn't know her sister used to meltdown on a regular basis. Their DF was noted for his lightswitch temper; he began his military service by putting the company bully in hospital.

Found this out because DB has his diagnosis at last. His oldest DC was diagnosed 5 years, and SIL has worked wonders.

Which explains why when I fought back, DM accepted it unemotionally (at the time).

Which means I can start to let go of my hate. I might even visit her grave next year. Yay, a bit.

Hi millli. No, people don't get it and it leaves you feeling pretty lonely. I hate it when people used to say "oh but family are important". Felt like saying "yeah why don't you tell that to them?" It is really sodding frustrating to hear the smug certainty that it can all be sorted out if you try hard enough. No, it can't because it takes two to be constructive to have a relationship.

Not only do you both have to be willing but you do have to take your own feeligns into account. If there's still live anger or hurt from the past, you can't just switch it off. That way, severe trouble lies. So trying to negotiate a relationship with someone even if they are willing to behaving reasonably also depends on how much you can handle how you're feeling.

The happy families sort of people don't understand this at all. It's so much simpler. Which is genuinely really nice for them but fuck, stop shoving your inexperienced views down my throat and telling me how it should be < /rant off>

meerka the killer for me as a teen was, 'of course she loves you really, shes your mum'

go endure your child abuse because we just need to hang onto our rosey image of motherhood as a sacred, rose tinted ideal and not have it tainted by your torture.

Hope everyone is hanging in there. After a peaceful non-Christmas, we are off to my parents' tomorrow, I am quite nervous about it. But DH is being v. supportive and we have given ourselves permission just to leave if necessary.

I have just finished reading 'The Emotionally Absent Mother' (you can get it for Kindle). It is a quick read but I have found it really helpful and interesting, even though I've read a lot of more technical/in-depth psychology in the past. I would really recommend it to anyone else whose mother is maybe not as obviously toxic as a lot of the parents on this thread but definitely on the cold side. The first part is about emotionally absent mothers and the rest is about the various ways you can identify what was missing for you and fill the gaps as an adult.

Well, we went to PILs yesterday.

FIL hugged me and hit my back so hard (kind of patting it as he hugged iyswim) it ached for about an hour (I have back problems which he is fully aware of).

MIL and FIL made PA comments to me (not DH) about how they don't see us very often.

FIL was very quiet and hardly said a word to us.

DNiece and DNephews were lovely and we spent most of our time talking to / playing with them.

Progress though - we're allowed to take them out during Feb half term! We're going to sort out a day and do zoo or go karting or something else fun.

We'd been there about 3 hours and I was struggling due to pain & exhaustion. DH told them we were leaving and they tried to guilt trip him into staying longer. DH agreed initially then saw my face and said we were leaving. FIL didn't come out of the kitchen to say goodbye to us, so we went into the kitchen to say goodbye to him and he was upset we were going.

It felt to me like they were really upset and want to see more of us. I'm torn really, they're polite to me now (although PA) and I'm sorry that they're upset. However I can't get over what they've done in the past - how do you forgive a child abuser? Can you forgive? Should you? I'm very confused and I guess I do feel guilty.

Good luck tomorrow kali. I really hope it'll be ok - they've got to be considerate of you at the moment haven't they?

crazy It does sound like they've changed and are genuinely a bit better towards you all. But still very difficult.

If you felt you wanted to, you could try to see them a bit more often but that really depends on if you feel you can endure it.

It might be okay to keep it as it is now? It sounds annoying but endurable if you keep it short. Concentrating on what you find manageable is maybe the way to go rather than thinking of forgiveness. If the mental strain of the past makes the whole thing more difficult then fair enough, that's one of the reasons why you find much contact difficult and it's good to keep it at what you can manage. When it comes down to it - if they hadn't been so brutal in the past to your husband, you'd not find it quite so difficult. I'm afraid this is one of the many consequences unfolding.

Myabe play the PIL Bingo for things like 'we'd like to see more of you'. Again not wanting to see more of them ... it's a consequence, isn't it.

Hello all. I was supposed to go and see family this weekend. Dsis told df I was visiting even though I said I didn't want to see him. Db arranged for us all to meet in the pub. No way, df could have just waltzed in. So I cancelled. I felt stressed about going anyway. I just wonder how it's all going to turn out and if I ever will see them again because if there's a possibility of df elbowing his way in, I'm not going.

Anon - interesting you talk about ASD - is that aspergers? I wondered for years secretly if BIL was aspergers. Now I now he's a narc, through and through.

Kalisda - which book is that. I've found two books on kindle with very similar titles. One is by Jasmine Corey and the other by J Anderson.

Does PA mean passive aggressive?

Meerka thank you for your response. I'm just so confused about what to do next. I guess it depends mostly on DH and how he wants to handle it. I just hate seeing people upset.

McSantaPaws yes PA is passive aggressive.

Kalidasa Good luck for tomorrow, I hope it's not too bad for you.

crazy Im sure others will be along with good advice.

But for myself I really think it's ok to either:-

1. keep it at this level
2. decrease it a bit
3. increase it a bit

The guiding factor in all this should be how you and your DP feel and how manageable it is for you, given your health. It's OK to prioritize your (mutual) wellbeing. It really is. The only time it's not is when it's at the (unjustified) expense of others.

McSanta - the one I've got is the one by Jasmin Cori. Haven't seen/read the other one.

mcsanta I think ASD means autistic spectrum disorder.

It sounds pretty awkward, them telling him you were there when you didn't want that :( what a pity.

Hello everyone, hope you've all managed OK this Christmas. It's been my first NC Christmas and I have to say it has been LOVELY. We had the PILs over for the big traditional Christmas Eve dinner. It was fine, I was a bit meh about doing it, didn't want to be bothered, but it was nice. Kids were OK and we had nice food. Then it was just us 4 for Christmas Day, we went for a long walk in the sunshine and then had leftovers for lunch. Went for a coffee with MIL in the afternoon.
I did give the DM presents to the kids but they didn't even notic who they were from to be quite honest. They were wrapped and they just ripped the paper off everything (they're 3 and 6 yo) and didn't really pay attention. So that was fine.
Part of my therapy in the last few weeks has been writing a "letter" to DM. It's part of the Power and Freedom bits of the 5 needs of the person (Love and belonging, survival, fun, power and freedom). The aim was not to send it, but to write it all out and think through my "truth". So, I decided to send it. I expect you'll all throw your arms up in despair I can hear Attila screaming from sunny climes far away . But it was a fucking kickass letter. I am so fucking proud of that letter. Therapist agreed it was a good letter.
Do you know what though? Since I wrote it and even more since I sent it I have felt so much better. Powerful, calm, happy. At peace. I'm glad I sent it.
I thought I might not know if she'd ever read it (which is fine actually, that wasn't the point really), but she has replied. I haven't read it and to be honest don't know if I will.
But I feel good. In control and happy.

Hi ladies - hoping some of the regs are on tonight. I'm so fed up.

After me putting my foot down after mil blew up and dp supporting me in myself going no contact, I gave in and allowed her to come on Boxing Day because I felt sorry for dp.

When she rang on xmas eve about coming round in the morning and dp said she still had to apologise. She said no, she wasn't coming to see me just him and dd so what did it matter? He still refused her though. I have in on boxing when we were having a small family party.

She came in and gave me a massive kiss and asked if I had been told about her crying when she opened her present off me. Like nothing had happened. DP said lets just get through xmas and I can do whAy I want after.

Last night dp asked her to babysit (she NEVER sits do I don't even know why he asked her) she said she will really ill. So I asked my eldest dd to come over. About ten mins before we were due to go out, mil breezes in and I heard her ask dp where he was going - as he had his coat on. She then took her cost and shoes off and settled down on my couch.
I over reacted as I knew I would because I'm sick of her getting away with shit. I came down stairs and said " oh are you here to baby sit mil?" She said "no , I've brought my tablet round for you to set up" so I replied with " oh no, we're on our way out and I'm not kicking you out but dd will not go to bed if your here- do you want us to drop you off"?

I wasn't having her here, questioning my dd, watching my telly when apparently she was too ill before. Petty I know but I can't help it.

Dp wasnt happy after she had gone. I explained that just because I'm pretending to forget everything she has done doesn't mean I've wiped out four years off bullshit off her. He actually tried to stick up for her until I mentioned her trying to make me think he was having an affair. He quickly back tracked.

She has been round again tonight. I feel sick I've got to play happy families again with a wretched bitter woman that is jelouse of everybody.

I had the perfect chance to gone NC and I ballsed it up. She has just sent us a huge Chinese take away round.

She has got away with it again and I'm a mug.

I don't know what to do now :-(

Hello everyone :-)
I decided not to do Christmas, text DM (here one after ToxicM) Christmas Eve morning telling her to explain to DSis and DBro why I wasn't doing Christmas. She replied saying that no she wouldn't and so I text them both myself and did not reply to her. Had DSis round Christmas Day who wanted to know why I was acting like that and to tell me that I've ruined Christmas. She brought my gifts but if DS wanted his he would have to go to TM's house which wasn't going to happen.

Got a text later from DSis asking if I was really not going to let him go round. Then got a text from TM around midnight telling me "sorry you didn't ruin Christmas we had a super time".

Spent most of the days since trying to make sense of it all and trying to figure how things will move forward.

Of course, she'll tell the family that I'm being horrible and unreasonable. I will have cancelled Christmas totally out of the blue, she'll have no idea why and not understand how I can be so nasty etc.

Even DSis was saying when she came round that my Aunty knows and What will she think? It's like she's TM's mini me.

Needless to say that I've heard no more from any of them. I still have gifts for DBro and his DD. Such a mess. Glad to have this board and other people that are NC with their families.

In response to a post upthread and the "family is important" comment, yes, my family, my DS and me, we are very important.

You sound really strong seza well done x

Allingoodfaith - thanks, I do try but it is hard at times.

I think it's just difficult to be the person who stands up and says "no more" and chooses to go NC. Of course your MiL like my TM will never say that they don't want to see us again. They'll push and make it doubt whether life is worth living but they'd never say those words because ultimately they need us to feed from our unhappiness. Even knowing what they're doing and why, it's still so hard to finally give up on the hope of ever having a good relationship and walking away knowing it's never going to happen. Realistically we can pour our love, hope and good faith into their bottomless pit for all of eternity but what will that achieve?

I think that at the end, you'll always have your DP and your children. I know that my own DS was a lot more balanced when I was NC from my TM for 8 weeks last year whether because I was better balanced or perhaps she is already working her fucked up magic on him.

New Year, New Start! It'll all be much easier to look at when it's 6 months ago and every day is one day closer.

Your dead right. It is trying to fill a bottomless pit. I feel like I'm in some weird tv show where mil is the star and just waiting for the audience boos but none ever happen.

I'm so flat tonight can't even cuddle dp. Every one is happy again except me, he keeps asking me if there is anything on my mind and I cba bleeting in about it again. I made a big song and dance and every one knew she had to apologise and I was standing my ground but I caved and feel weak but fizzing with resentment.

How do you feel now? I bet full of relief ??

I may tackle mil in the new year when she is on her own as I can put money on it she will start calling in every day to talk while dp is at work.

Perhaps giving her some boundaries would help? Tell her you can't talk now but you'll see her on Sarurday/Next Sauturday and you have to go and do this job now and just walk away from her? I know that isn't always possible and just seeing her face will probably make you cross but you could keep some chocs at work or something similar to reward yourself after she's gone?

I feel very odd. There's some washing of mine at her house that she was going to iron for me in return for me doing something for her and so I'm planning on getting them when I know she'll be out rather than facing her. We live on the same street so will consider moving again though I'm not sure if I would or not. We've been here almost 7 years and I like the idea of DS having one home and never having to move but I feel suffocated and like my wings are clipped with her spreading her evil a few doors away.

Of course, I'm going to be cast in a bad light in all of this. We (that is we siblings) all know what she's like even if either she does more to me or else I am more affected by it than they are, and so if I decide to walk away, it's my choice and my problem.

Last time we fell out it was about DS and her undermining me, the time before because she decided that my then BF was hitting DS. I often walk out when she starts but sometimes that's not enough. She very rarely admits blame and has said sorry 3 times ever, all of which since having DS. Every time we argue she brings up stuff from when I was 16. All in all, she's a very negative influence that I won't miss.

I'm sure that they did have a great Christmas. I'm the one that gets the arse on from her snide and PA comments so thy won't have had that, just lots of wine and laughing/joking and they also will not have had my DS running around being silly/hyper/noisy nor me shouting at him and "causing a scene". It's all stress that I can do without but I don't know what comes next.

Should I move away from her? Is it worth uprooting DS for? I have lots of questions but, like most things, only time will tell.

It sounds like you and DP need to have a good chat and be a united front. It might sound silly but setting a review date for in a few weeks time and keeping a log of when she's a witch might be a way to remain realistic about it? It is hard but resigning yourself to the fact that you can't control her is a big step to finding a way forward.

I can't control my TM and I regard the way that the acts and treats me as unacceptable and I will refuse to accept it. It's not normal and it's not nurturing at all! I have dumped friends for much less but I'm pretty cut and dried about people lying to me so don't see why I should have to put up with it from my own mother