"But we took you to stately homes!!!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

It's December 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

sorry for a hit and run.

having a bit of a weepy overwhelmed moment.

mixture of positive and sadness and not exactly guilt but something like shock at how hard hearted i've had to be in the last couple of years in order to move forward.

and there is still hard hearted decisions and work to be done.

i could do with a late night snivvle and cuddle session - glad i'll be going to stay with my friend in a few days and will have the opportunity.

meanwhile back to trying to be enough for my son who doesn't blame me but misses having a big family

Aww sweetheart have a big hug from me . There's nothing wrong with being hard-hearted if it is necessary for your sanity. It's hard having to go NC or LC, but if your toxic relative(s) is/are having a detrimental effect on your mental health, then sometimes it is best to cut them off. You MH is priority TBH, because without good/reasonable MH, you can't look after your DC as well as you would be able to if your MH was better IYSWIM.

Don't be afraid to have a good cry. It's understandable that you may feel angry at your relative(s) for what they have done to you, but if you have to be cold in order to move on, then just do it. One of my mottos is to keep looking forward and only look back to learn from what has happened.

It can also be hard learning to be cold when needed, but the more you practice the better you become at it and the better you are at choosing when you need to be that way.

I hope you're OK lovely Don't give your relative(s) a second though for now and definitely don't worry about them, they're adults and can look after themselves. Just concentrate on your DC and having fun with them.

pengy one of the things from cutting off from toxic parents is that you have to grieve. You need time to mourn the loss of hope that they can be good parents; that they are loving. It really hurts and cuts so very, very deep to the core of you. It's really a loss to both no longer be in contact, and to face the reality that their care was highly flawed (to put it at best).

Can you ask your husband to read Toxic Parents? it really does sum things up very well. Quite a challenging book to read but when you come out the other side, it helps.

Can you also talk over what to do next time they send cards? Maybe you could take them, open them and then bin them instead of yoru husband seeing them. Christmas is always hard, but the physical reminders are even harder.

Honey big hug from me, a cup of mulled wine and a teddy bear to cuddle deep in the night.

It feels bad being hardhearted doesn't it, even if it's absolutely necessary. But you aren't a hard hearted person, you're a loving person doing the right thing for yoru son and yourself. Don't doubt it

I think it's often doubly hard for survivors of toxic people and narcs as we've been so conditioned not to be hard hearted, not to put ourselves first. So it feels like going against anything we've ever known.

Hi everyone. That's my first NC Christmas Day done. It was a bit strange, bit unsettling but DH and the kids and I had a great day. My mother had requested (via DH) a chat with the DCs so DH sorted that out while I had a glass of wine and a quick read of a cheesy christmas book. Part of this whole NC thing is to protect my kids from her poison - she has started to speak to my niece in an unacceptable way and I've no doubt she'll do the same to my kids if she gets the chance - but I'm not going to be awkward about a five minute phone call every few months (at least not for now).

My sister is kind of talking to me via text (can't have a real conversation with her because she lives with our parents). My Dad isn't. It's sad. He's changed so much over the years and become spineless and cowed. I don't know how things will pan out with either of them. I suspect I've lost them both. That's so hard and there's that voice in my head saying its my own fault for going NC with my mother and that I could just go and apologise and suck it all up for another twenty years and it would all be better. I feel so fucking alone and that them cutting me off serves me right for going NC with her. I expected it but it doesn't make it any less painful. And I'm bloody annoyed too that I didn't go NC twenty odd years ago - I could have saved myself putting up with her shite and the end result would have been the same. Sorry about that and thank you for the space to have a tearful rant.

Pengy I hope that your DH can find a way through this. I hung on for years because I wanted a relationship with other family members and because I kept hoping she'd change and magically become the mother I wanted. It just got too hard to "keep taking one for the team" so I stopped (after about 2 years of trying and failing). All you can do is support DH. I wouldn't have been able to go NC without the support of my husband. I wouldn't get through all the wobbles, guilt, sadness without him reminding me that it's the right decision. He'll need you, you sound like you're up to the challenge though

Honey your post echoes so many of the things I'm feeling. I hope you have a lovely time with your friend. Don't forget it's the type of people your son sees that will enrich his life, not the amount.

there's that voice in my head saying its my own fault for going NC with my mother and that I could just go and apologise and suck it all up for another twenty years and it would all be better

you could, but you would probably be half destroyed by it :/

sometimes the price of love is too high. The Illusion of love ... love should not come with heavy strings that constrict and cut.

Spiders, the thing is, things probably won't get better. If you apologise and suck it up you may find that they treat you even worse, because they think that you've apologised this time and will possibly keep on doing so if you upset them. They'll probably use your good nature against you and have you walking on even thinner eggshells IYSWIM. I could be totally wrong, but from your post, this is what I see that could possibly happen.

It seems your sister is possibly the GC (Golden Child) and IME the GC can be kept as separate as possible from the scapegoat, so that your mum's treatment of you is not generally seen by your DSis. Even on the occasions that your sister and yourself are in the same vicinity as your mum, I have found that many toxic parents will feign upset to turn people against you to make you look like the bad person. This may not be what is happening in your case, but it is what I have seen in many of my friend's cases. In the end, I'm only putting my experience across to help you see what toxic people can get up to, to make the scapegoat look bad. They're essentially deflecting and projecting their own shortcomings onto you and others.

Is there anyone else that your mum treats the same way or similar?

thank you.

i've had to make so many changes and 'get rid' of so many people and things over the last couple of years and make big decisions and take big steps and i know it's far from over yet. i can see rationally that these things are 'right' and i am moving us forward and that the... universe is more than meeting me halfway but it all feels so strange sometimes. it's like, am i really doing all this? am i a bad person because i'm putting us first? because i'm making good things come to us? because i want good things for us? because i'm remembering i want and deserve more from life?

i KNOW (again 'rationally') what the answer to this is but it's such wobbly foreign ground in a way and looking and seeing what i could become, who i could be (perhaps am) is...?

knowing what i am capable of actually scares me a bit. the moments where i don't feel guilty or ashamed or like i should make myself smaller and carry on hiding actually scare me a bit. knowing i'm taking my son along for the ride terrifies me!

i'm waffling. and it doesn't capture it. i don't want to be small and fulfill their crap anymore, i'm not willing to and i won't. i don't want to feel guilty or ashamed of myself simply for being good at some things or wanting happiness out of life anymore. i don't want to feel guilty or ashamed when people like me or see capability in me or compliment me anymore. i genuinely want to leave all of that behind and move forward and be ok with wanting and creating a happy, peaceful life that suits us and our needs.

end of waffle. sorry. it'd also be good to stop fucking apologising one of these years.

had a really challenging conversation with ds last night about it all last night which i guess brought all this on. parenting is such a responsibility - i love him so much and i so don't want to get it wrong.

Meerka Chiggers you are both absolutely right. It would be far, far worse and totally self-defeating to go back there. It's just one of those tricky days when the anger/hurt/guilt gets a bit too much. Thank you for being here.

Chiggers you've hit the nail on the head about my sister, they'd forgive her anything (and she's put that theory to the test many times). That said she has been manipulated into living with them even though she has a fantastic boyfriend who wants her and her daughter to move in with him. I spend very little time alone with her and we rarely speak because I have to go through my mother to do so. When we do get together alone our mother gets very angry and resentful. In essence she's driven a wedge between us and she loves to play us off against one another. I just hope my sister wakes up and takes control of her life. I can't make that decision for her though.

honey maybe our New Years resolution should be to stop saying sorry?

Honey the only people who matter most in your family are your DC and yourself. At the end of the day you need to focus on bettering yourself for you and your DC. Stuff the rest of them and if you do decide to try to better yourself, you can start feeling good about unlocking your potential. Show them who you really are and don't let them try and stop you. If they do, it'll show you that they don't want you to become a better person and certainly don't have your interests at heart. They want you to be their whipping boy, regardless of NC, LC or full contact.

By whipping boy I mean if you are NC, they may well be telling people that you think you're above your station etc, etc. With low contact, they'll try their best to stop you from going any further with the limited contact they have, or they could be totally full on nasty to you for trying to better yourself, with full contact IYSWIM. Again this has been what I've experienced with friends toxic parents. The thing is, even though your parents created you, they still don't have the right to be loved unconditionally. You are under no obligation to love them either. At the end of the day, if you put aside the blood ties, they are just ordinary people, and would you let an ordinary person treat you like they have? You could do like my friend did......walk away and don't look back. Oh, and stop apologising for things you wouldn't normally apologise for.

Spiders, I think you should do the same as Honey. If your DSis wants to keep in contact with you, she has your number and will do everything to keep in contact, regardless of whether your mum has manipulated her. If this is going behind your mum's back, then she'll seize any opportunity (out and about with her friend's, on the toilet, in her room etc) to do it on the quiet, so your mum doesn't catch her. The other thing I want to say is "Don't you dare apologise for telling your relative(s) the truth". If they are offended and hurt, then it'll probably be because they know they were wrong to treat you like they did and that it has come back to embarrass them. That's the last thing they would want.......to look foolish, shameful and stupid in front of anyone.

i'm no contact chiggers and shamefully or not i can say that i do not love them. my guilt and sadness these days is for my son. i know me and him are the most important people and he knows that too and loves me and says i'm enough but wishes he had more which is utterly fair enough. i wish he had more too. the challenge now is to make our life bigger, bring more good people into it, more good experiences and breadth and depth and openness. it is wonderful that he loves me and of course i can be 'enough' but as i am learning for myself enough is not enough itms. life is about more than survival.

But Honey, you will give him more when you better yourself and blossom into a better person. ATM you're protecting him from some nasty individuals who have the capacity to manipulate him and drive a wedge between you (remember the "Divide and Conquer" scenario). You're doing this by keeping him away from all that. When he's older and able to understand this fully, then he will thank you for it. He'll thank you for allowing him the opportunity to see his GPs for the people they really are, not the people they like to make themselves out to be.

You see, I'm thinking long-term here and where I can see you and your DS. I don't know how many years down the line it'll be, but your job is to start laying the foundations for a better future for both of you. If a complete stranger can have faith in you, what does that say about your possible potential. It generally says that you don't believe in yourself enough and you probably don't see that ATM, but I'm sure you will do in time. You're strong enough to go NC with your relatives, you're strong enough to do almost anything. It take a huge amount of emotional and mental effort to go NC with relatives, so yes, you CAN do it

If there's one thing your parents should have taught you, it is how NOT to be a parent. If you run with that, then you will parent better than your own parents did. Look back on the past and use it as a guide as to what and what not to do.

FWIW, I don't do mistakes or regrets, just experiences and learning curves

thank you chiggers. what i feel strange/awful/not sure about is my 7yo son already showing more compassion, intelligence, love, understanding, maturity etc than i was SHOWN as a child. i really do do my best to shield him and avoid too much on his shoulders and let him be a child etc and he definitely is a child and is full of humour and fart jokes and the like but he is also... mu lovely loyal, emotionally intelligent and trying to grasp what's going on little person.

i was a very clever child (not said to brag, can't say it was a blessing to be honest) and in some ways my son is too and i want to be so careful not to burden that because... i know. but i also can't pretend he isn't smart/doesn't see/feel/get because that would leave him alone with it and scared/confused - i know (whilst trying to avoid projection).

it's a delicate walk eh?

Nothing wrong with encouraging intelligence. We tend to think nothing of encouraging young people with other talents, so why not do the same with intelligence regardless of age. Harness your own intelligence too and use it to better yourself as well. You'll be setting a fantastic example for your DS, and possibly annoying your relatives too (which you could see as your way of getting back at them). The best way to get back at people is to live well, and taking the 1st steps in laying the foundations for a better future will be doing just that. Not only will you get out into the world of work again and meet new people, who will treat you with respect, but you'll have better earning power and then comes the better life.

What have you got to lose? The short term pain will be worth the long term gain, financial and emotional.

I laid the foundations for a BSc (Hons) degree in Psychology, by completing the Access course and getting a place at university. I want to go for a PhD, but I'll take each day as it comes. I could have done it without DH, but it would have been so much harder. Luckily DH took on the childcare side so I could crack on and get the coursework done. DH took on 3 jobs so we could have me staying at home with the DC as babies. My urge to go out to work again is very strong now, so I want to start on a wage that is at least what we're getting on benefits. I'd like to go into research design and analysis, but more into counselling and CBT. If the worst comes to the worst, I could take on a nursing degree and go into MH nursing.

Obviously I can only understand what you're going through to a certain extent, but that's because I'm not you and am not experiencing the feelings and emotions you are going through. It's hard to see the long-lasting effects of abuse.

I'm afraid I must fly and take the slobbery pooches for a long walk, but I'll be back tomorrow morning to natter away as usual. Take care sweetheart and I'll chat soon

i'm fortunate i've already done HE and a profession and now have found a way to work freelance. i don't earn a fortune but enough to get buy and to have bought us freedom form having to be in any one place at any one time and ds no longer goes to school. we're looking at travelling more and setting a life balance that works for us.

i feel like a brat saying that. believe me i'm not wealthy or spoilt and we are not in some privileged position. there's just me and ds and i've made choices over the last few years to put us in a position of having choices and a degree of freedom.

well done you for for getting your education later in life.

an old friend has just been over for a chat and we have shared troubles and laughter and a good hug at the end of it. it's a long time since we've connected like that and i'm glad of it. i need to start finding and letting people back into my life again. i have things to give as well as needs.

Hello there. First Christmas not in hell and was very weird and sad and relieving at the same time.

Me and ds (4yrs) spent Xmas with friends and their family, and visiting my DF in hospital Xmas eve and today. Dropped by the house to see M briefly and it was very briefly.

Sad. Very sad. Was an interloper in someone elses Christmas and yet felt more calm and included than the last 30 odd Christmases with my own family. Very sad as I love my dad so much and it ripped me apart seeing him so ill.

Honey, I think the problem is that we tend to keep people at arms length (except those we know who are good people) in case we get hurt. A lot of people are scared of getting hurt, but if we can imagine our situations from an outsider's POV, then we will see that it isn't people in general that have hurt us, it's the individual people. We know who those people are so far and we don't have to have them in our lives. There are good people out there and we just need to find them.

Everything we have been through can teach us things about life, we just need to stop and think about these things from an objective POV, now and again. It helps us to keep some perspective on our lives. Oh and congrats on your HE qualifications. You worked hard for them and deserve them. I hope you find your path in life with your son , and I hope it's a good one. Travelling is a good option as your DS will gather lots of different facts and so will you. This could be your opportunity to blossom and become a better person, and that in itself will have a positive effect on your DS

Miscellaneous, welcome to the thread, and so sorry to hear about your dad . I know it's hard, but you can and will get through this. I can empathise with how you may be feeling about your dad. My DF is dying of cancer and in a short space of time, he has gone from being able to stay up for over an hour to chat, to needing to sleep within half an hour. One of the major signs of deterioration I have detected is his lack of peeing. He used to go to the toilet every half hour, but now he is rarely going. It's an indication that his kidneys and other organs are slowly shutting down.

It's strange/funny how our families can reject us for not doing as we are told by them, yet other decent people are happy to take us in and let us be ourselves. They accept us for who we are and don't try to mould us into something we're not supposed to be IYSWIM. These are the people we need to be with.

FWIW, I find that the best comfort I get is from my kids, DH and my staffies. I used to very wary of staffies, but since we acquired 2, I've found that my dogs are very playful, daft, very entertaining, but incredibly loving.

I think one barrier to forming good friendships is that many of us have trust issues; the people on whom we should be able to rely have let us down and betrayed us and it leaves us struggling to form meaningful relationships with other because we always assume they will abuse our trust too. I guess one part if the healing process is opening ourselves up again but with those people we choose to trust rather than those we have been conditioned to.

yes there's that but i've also discovered i'm really scared of compassion and feel awful about accepting help or favours. i was also raised to believe that anyone who liked me or loved me, 'just didn't know me like she did'. i knew all this for years rationally but since cutting them out of my lives for 2 year now i am.... feeling and processing things on a different level than just knowing or rationalising them. i'm almost reprogramming or fundamentally shifting inside myself now.

on the last thread i talked about how decades of work on healing myself were like two steps forward one step back due to still exposing myself to the abuse/toxin/trigger. since removing it and owning my right to remove it plus time it's a whole different ball game.

i've had a really emotional few days but the emotion (which is erratic - not all sad or dramatic and some of it short lived and triggered by daft things like a comment on a nature programme that resonates massively in my heart silly as that sounds and some simultaneously producing tears and laughter) feels important, necessary and like a, yeah, shifting and reprogramming process.

i need a massive purge but i think it's ok and i have genuine hope for the future which is scary but right.

yes it's about trust for others but more fundamentally for me personally it's about trust for myself and on some level for my real self rather than the protective self i had to construct and hadn't realised how much of was still around.

for those just starting out on non contact i would say this stuff takes time and has stages. i'm two years in and there's been a lot of letting go, stripping back, loss etc much of it freeing but also painful obviously but this feels a bit like that bit of winter where the last of the death has to happen but you can feel the shoots pressing up simultaneously.

sorry to sound so dramatic.

hang in there people. we can heal from anything.

Honey, as we know, allowing others to trust us and allowing ourselves to trust others takes time. We don't just wake up one morning and decide to trust everyone and anyone. It can take decades in some cases. In many cases, the victim has to strip everything back to the bare framework and rebuild from there IYSWIM. It can and will be incredibly hard at times but it can be done. Time and an incredible amount of patience is the order of the day.

Sometimes we need to look down that long, long tunnel and although we may not be able to see the light at the end just yet, we know that light is there. On occasions I think of trusting others like doing a bungee jump (I've done one and the adrenaline rush is fantastic. I hadn't felt so alive in a long time). Once you've done one, you don't have the same fear about it and you aren't as scared to try it again IYSWIM.

As I've said, every experience is a learning curve and trusting someone who isn't supposed to let you down may mean you don't ever trust them again. That's absolutely fine. You aren't obliged to love nor trust anyone you don't feel you can.

From your last line, I detect that you already have hope and determination to recover from your past. That's good, but although you will come upon hard times at some points along the way, just remember one thing..........NEVER GIVE UP!!!

Another of my mottos is "I'll keep getting up one more time than I'm knocked down, dusting myself off again and plodding along a bit further"

I have the trust issues too. Don't trust myself either. It makes building friendships very difficult.

Hrrrrm this looks interesting, another poster started a thread about it. Its for people who are estranged from their families.

standalone.org.uk/

i'm really scared of compassion and feel awful about accepting help or favours

... because there's always a price to pay?

Im reading back through some of the posts and feel such compassion for everyone. Over the years I have tried to explain to people why I have been no contact but you get the remarks that "They are family" "Family are important" etc etc etc. Then you just feel bad. Bad for trying to make someone understand and bad because you once again think that you are to blame and maybe it is all your fault. So hard.