"But we took you to stately homes!!!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

It's December 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

My MIL went the other way re FIL and told others that she held his hand: however, that was still done for appearances sake as she never held his hand or even showed much if any affection to him during their marriage aka practical arrangement.

Two days after he died her overriding concern was about how to obtain the death certificate. There was no sense of her being shocked; she was all matter of fact and business like about the whole thing.

Zero empathy and egocentricity is par for the course for such people. As is a paucity of flowers on the wreath made for his coffin as well; the whole thing simply confirmed to me how little she actually thought of him.

vivvyen

Shocking behaviour on the part of your mother (who is not worthy actually of the term).

Re yourself BACP are good and do not charge the earth.

Regardless of whom you see though, you need to find a therapist who has NO bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment.

Agreed with atilla. You know this already but just to say it again: your mother will suck you dry and leave you a husk, while still complaining how lacking you are.

I can't believe there are others who are as ... mad? It should make me feel better but it doesn't, it makes me incredibly sad. I just can't make myself see past this incident, how can she not be consumed with guilt? How can she not even feel bad about it? It is so far removed from how I am that I cannot reconcile the two. Atilla that is the problem isn't it, finding someone who is not going to try and make me actually accept her treatment? I could end up feeling even worse.
What you said also struck a chord with me about when my Dad died (who I loved dearly). I think I have posted about it before but we knew he had only hours to live and she went and took a bloody sleeping tablet and knocked herself out! I was with my Dad when he died, and had to make the decision whether to stay with him at the end or try and wake her - I was not going to risk him dying alone so I stayed and he died in my arms, and I'm so glad I did because he opened his eyes right at the end and smiled at me, and then he was gone. (This was 20 years ago and I am still filling up as I type this). However, when I managed to shake her awake she was furious at me for 'taking her place' and it was her job to be with him, and how he should have died in the night when only she was there so none of us could have interfered!!! She blames me to this day.
FabULouse your post also rang a bell...she would complain loudly to me on the phone about the other patients in her ward, talking loud enough for them to hear her. I would be cringing as she ranted about this one screaming, or that one being sick.

Sometimes I wish I could forget about the woman in the hospital so that I could go back to the dysfunctional relationship I had before (tongue in cheek really) but I just cannot get over the fact that anyone, let alone my own mother, could behave in this way and I can't forgive that.

Zara8 I should have read your post in shock but didn't - I actually feel numb about this kind of behaviour. Sadly it's exactly the sort of thing she would do too. Paranoia is a big part of her fucked up personality. Whilst in hospital she had an endoscopy - the numbed the back of her throat and she was sedated, but afterwards she was convinced that they didn't do the procedure at all because she hadn't felt it going down her throat. Not just in a can't-believe-I-couldn't-feel-it way, but in a 'they're all keeping something from me, I know they are, they didn't do it but said they did because they are hiding something' way. Everything is a conspiracy.

good news is we just put down the deposit on the house and will hopefully have the keys within a month

oh that is good gtB! congrats =)

not the one we originally saw, that fell thru as vendors were total wankbadgers. This one is the same price but a better house

yes to what Attila says about a therapist with no bias about keeping families together

The unsettled way you feel about her is totally normal and understandable in light of what she did, nothing wrong with "backing away slowly" as a previous poster phrased it! Mr father is still alive but I haven't spoken to him in years - he was convicted of a serious crime (non-violent, but appalling circumstances that really harmed the people involved) and more than all the crap be put me through, the fact of that crime convinces me to stay NC. I don't want my children exposed, directly or indirectly, to that kind of person.

Another e mail

Hm. She's fishing and trying to catch you on her hook.

OK, well Attila can virtual bitch slap me round the chops for this. I deserve it.

So, this second message was all contrite and sounded sad (although NOT apologising) so I thought I'd send a neutral basic response: "Of course you may send presents, but it was you who chose to leave and no, I don't hate you".

Immediate ANGRY response about how I wrote to my uncle and included the words walk away from family (There was line about how people from happy families can find it hard soemtimes why you have to walk away, but were plenty of other references at not wanting to talk to her "for the time being". About how I wouldn't help her leave, FORCED her out and obviously hate her in fact clearly never even liked her.

So that's that. No more contact. Back to the plan, because she is so absolutely INSANE that if she weren't thousands of miles away it would quite spook me to be honest.

Lesson learned.

she's shot herself in the foot hasn't she?

It's a pity but she's so ill that yeah, you probably can't even have a remote and occasional relationship with her :(

Hope you're okay GtB.

No she's just too mad. she's as angry as when I didn't pick up the phone last summer. and doesnt even ask about the kids. wants to send presents but hasn't actually asked how they are. you'd think she might, wouldn't you?

G2B

No bitch slap. I'll save the bitch slap for someone who really deserves one i.e. my MIL (entitled cow that she is!. I can sum her up thus, "narcissists can't be counted on not to do something just because it's wrong, illegal, or will hurt someone, as long as they think that they can get away with it or that you can't stop them or punish them i.e., they don't care what you think unless they're afraid of you").

Am very sorry but not altogether surprised she turned on you like she did; it really is not possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist. She will never apologise nor accept any responsibility for her actions.

The website halcyon is yet invaluable here:-

"They think that they must be seen as perfect or superior or infallible, next to god-like (if not actually divine, then sitting on the right hand of God) or else they are worthless. There's no middle ground of ordinary normal humanity for narcissists. They can't tolerate the least disagreement. In fact, if you say, "Please don't do that again it hurts," narcissists will turn around and do it again harder to prove that they were right the first time; their reasoning seems to be something like "I am a good person and can do no wrong; therefore, I didn't hurt you and you are lying about it now..." sorry, folks, I get lost after that. Anyhow, narcissists are habitually cruel in little ways, as well as big ones, because they're paying attention to their fantasy and not to you, but the bruises on you are REAL, not in your imagination. Thus, no matter how gently you suggest that they might do better to change their ways or get some help, they will react in one of two equally horrible ways: they will attack or they will withdraw. Be wary of wandering into this dragon's cave narcissists will say ANYTHING, they will trash anyone in their own self-justification, and then they will expect the immediate restoration of the status quo. They will attack you (sometimes physically) and spew a load of bile, insult, abuse, contempt, threats, etc., and then -- well, it's kind of like they had indigestion and the vicious tirade worked like a burp: "There. Now I feel better. Where were we?" They feel better, so they expect you to feel better, too. They will say you are nothing, worthless, and turn around immediately and say that they love you. When you object to this kind of treatment, they will say, "You just have to accept me the way I am. (God made me this way, so God loves me even if you are too stupid to understand how special I am.)" Accepting them as they are (and staying away from them entirely) is excellent advice.

The other "punishment" narcissists mete out is banishing you from their glorious presence this can turn into a farce, since by this point you are probably praying to be rescued, "Dear God! How do I get out of this?" The narcissist expects that you will be devastated by the withdrawal of her/his divine attention, so that after a while a few weeks or months (i.e., the next time the narcissist needs to use you for something) the narcissist will expect you to have learned your lesson and be eager to return to the fold. If you have learned your lesson, you won't answer that call. They can't see that they have a problem; it's always somebody else who has the problem and needs to change. Therapies work at all only when the individual wants to change and, though narcissists hate their real selves, they don't want to change they want the world to change. And they criticize, gripe, and complain about almost everything and almost everyone almost all the time. There are usually a favored few whom narcissists regard as absolutely above reproach, even for egregious misconduct or actual crime, and about whom they won't brook the slightest criticism. These are people the narcissists are terrified of, though they'll tell you that what they feel is love and respect; apparently they don't know the difference between fear and love. Narcissists just get worse and worse as they grow older; their parents and other authority figures that they've feared die off, and there's less and less outside influence to keep them in check".

Time to resume no contact and this time stick to it!.

Im afraid that's very true, most toxic people get worse as they grow older and become more themselves, less dependent on the good opinions of others :(

When I thought about it, if ( if ) you want any sort of contact at all with her along the lines of 2 x a year, then it make take a while for her to learn that angry mails = silent GtB. Eventually possibly she may learn to keep things superficial, neutral and endurable which is as good as it can get, really. No need to think of that now, though.

---

I keep trying to get it round my head that i don't need to see my father any more. Don't need to feel the not-quite-concealed vibes of contempt and control. Spent so many years desperately hoping for his approval that it is hard to really hold onto that awareness that I don't need to see him again. it keeps slipping away into the old patterns of thought of "Im no good, failure" and desperate desperate longing for a dad's love (even while I'm kind of exasperated at myself for not shaking myself free of it years and years ago!). I do blame him when I think of it, but I also am aware that I'm well into middle age and I'd much rather be the captain of my own ship now than giving him the tiller and him walking away and me blaming him for not being there. Hope that metaphor is understandable. It's going to take a long time to really change the patterns of decades of wanting approval. Why can't I just move on and leave it all behind, grrrrrrr.

The biggest thing is that if (if) I can hold onto being my own person and not dependent on his never-present approval, I can be a better parent. Expect less of my children and just let them be themselves more. Everything to fight for here.

One small step forward, I suppose. Being aware that the pattern of thought is ingrained so when I start thinking like that, it's habit. And habits can be changed.

Thanks for listening, guys and thanks for not slapping me with a wet fish :) It's so hard when you realise that there really is a total irrationality behind it all, that you might as well talk to a brick wall. Part of you wants to explain, if you could just explain then they'd understand and be sorry. But it doesn't work, because they can't see past themselves, can't empathise and understand they've hurt you. Even if they do then it descends into self pity "I'm such a terrible person, you obviously hate me", still all about them.

I mean the basics are that I have said to her on more than one occasion "you have hurt me so much with what you said about me that I don't want to talk to you for the time being". A normal person would be devastated and would try to make amends. She just goes into a rage and storms off. She hurt me but she gets angry with me for being hurt. WTF? Then when I point this out she says it was me who left. And it is clear she is still angry. But she accuses me of being angry with her, of hating her. Because those are her feelings so she projects them onto me. She can't empathise and understand that I might be hurt, not angry.

And yes, Meerka totally understand what you are saying about your father. That little niggle of wanting approval at some level is so ingrained, but so toxic. If it were a friend you'd walk away so much more easily. But it is so much better if you free yourself from it and it really helps with your own parenting and the rl with your kids, being free from that yoke. I'm hardly mum of the year but I'm so much of a better parent away from her influence.

And it brought to mind that thing Attila says about narcs: "Come close so I can hurt you again" (or something). It's like she's fishing around, sounding sad and pathetic, you give a tiny bit and WHAM! You're a bitch, you abandoned me, took my GC away, you hate me, RAGE, RAGE! Never ever ever any attempt to reconcile to accept blame to say sorry. And she doesn't once in any of these missives ask after the children or me, ask for photos, news of them. Nothing. Isn't that as WEIRD AS FUCK?????

How do you cope with the feelings that your mum isn't as bad as others people's parents, but at the same time makes me feel stressed, worthless and childlike?

I read the thread and I think "my mum isn't as bad as that", not a stealth boast I promise, but I can't help but not want to talk to her, and more recently I don't even want to see her when she visits. (Lives abroad).

Every time I try and explain why I feel so angry, childhood issues seem to have come to the front about how she split the family up for an emotionally abusive man, and how even now, when I'm in my early 30's, she with another man who has been very rude and ignorant towards me. She know's he was rude and ignorant but always come out with "but he's trying to make amends, he's my husband so you will have to come out to dinner with us".

I have reached the point where I feel like I'm a stubborn child. I've cancelled a trip down to my hometown this weekend after she hung up on me on Mother's Day when I defended myself for not reminding my sister it was Mother's Day, like I usually do, and got sick of being responsible to tell her.

Arghh, even writing it down sounds so petty and stupid, but I know I'm not unreasonable, I just can't verbalise what is wrong..

Sorry to read your story Goodtobetter, I have no advice but wanted you to know that I'm listening.

Sorry for board spamming. I am listening to Let it Go and some of it sounds like the torch song for people going NC with narcs :)

The wind is howling like this swirling storm inside.
Couldn't keep it in, Heaven knows I tried.
Don't let them in, don't let them see.
Be the good girl you always have to be.
Conceal, don't feel, don't let them know.
Well, now they know!

Let it go, let it go!
Can't hold it back any more.
Let it go, let it go!
Turn away and slam the door.
I don't care what they're going to say.
Let the storm rage on.
The cold never bothered me anyway.

It's funny how some distance,
makes everything seem small.
And the fears that once controlled me, can't get to me at all
It's time to see what I can do,
to test the limits and break through.
No right, no wrong, no rules for me.
I'm free!

Let it go, let it go.
I am one with the wind and sky.
Let it go, let it go.
You'll never see me cry.
Here I'll stand, and here I'll stay.
Let the storm rage on.

My power flurries through the air into the ground.
My soul is spiraling in frozen fractals all around
And one thought crystallizes like an icy blast
I'm never going back; the past is in the past!

Let it go, let it go.
And I'll rise like the break of dawn.
Let it go, let it go
That perfect girl is gone
Here I stand, in the light of day.

Let the storm rage on!
The cold never bothered me anyway...

Hi roland everyone always says that "my mum's not as bad as some people's" as we've been trained all our lives to minimise. But, scratch a little deeper and it always is "that bad" or you wouldn't have found your way here. It doesn't matter where it ranks on the scale of "bad". If it makes you feel bad then that is enough.
Your mother sounds very difficult and emotionally unavailable.

roland

You've been conditioned to minimise your feelings; you've likely been trained over the years by this woman to put her first. One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult.

I think your feelings now re your mother are perfectly understandable; your mother is an inherently selfish woman who has and still puts men above the feelings of her own daughters. Your mother is really not worthy of the term of "mother". I think you need to work on putting more mental distance between this woman and you.

How does your sister get on with her these days?

I would consider speaking to a therapist about all this but you really do need to find someone who has no bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment.

"How do you cope with the feelings that your mum isn't as bad as others people's parents, but at the same time makes me feel stressed, worthless and childlike?"

roland I am in a similar position. My mum has never been outright abusive, she's just failed to protect me from child molester dad, and has always been incredibly critical and rude (I'm only recently realising how rude she has been to me over the years, I've always just brushed it off before.) She is also incredibly rude to/about my son, on the basis that she couldn't stand his dad, my late H.

My mum never gets angry. She just ends up sobbing "I'm a terrible mother and you hate me!" and expecting me to say Oh no you're not, etc. It used to make me feel so awful. My eyes have really opened to her manipulations in the last few months.

I don't think your post sounds unreasonable, and from what you've described it sounds like you're moving AWAY from child mode and into adult mode. An adult who demands respectful treatment and who doesn't take any shit. Which is going to go down like a lead balloon with your mum, sadly.