"But we took you to stately homes!!!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

It's December 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
October 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

You are very wise Oh my dear Meerka. It doesn't hurt exactly but I am tempted to put my side of the story so to speak and somehow try to get her to see. I'll write it here instead:

I am glad to hear your health has improved and I hope you are well.

But, listen, I'm not playing this game of "I don't know what I did". Own it, take responsibility. You know what you said. You don't need me to tell you. It's all pretty much the same as what preceeded us moving out in 2013 anyway. If you don't want to apologise, so be it, but stop pretending you don't know what happened.

Even if it were true that you were in the dark, wouldn't the normal thing be to apologise wholeheartedly for any upset you'd caused unwittingly? Rather than go for the raging e mails and phone calls and storming off across the world? You say "You (meaning me) chose to walk away". That is clearly rewriting history since it is you who left the country without a word. I am NOT the one who left. I did refuse to speak to someone who said horrible things about me until they apologised, which they never did. Pretending you don't know what you said is NOT the same as an apology.

The part of your message about the children makes no sense. You didn't speak to them on the day before emigrating as you didn't want to upset them, but you think just disappearing forever is less upsetting?

I sent you a message at Christmas explaining why I was hurt and you've just ignored it all really.

You'll probably read this message as an angry missive, it's really not. I'm not angry, but you just don't seem to get it. You were horrible about me. It upset me. When I didn't want to speak to you for a day you went into a rage, culminating in emigrating. You refuse to give out your address, making me out to be such a vindictive cow that I'd send presents back.

I didn't cut you off, you upset me. You didn't say sorry. You stormed off. You didn't say goodbye. That's what happened. You are welcome to send the children presents. I gave them your presents at Christmas and told them they were from Granny. Like I say, my plan was to have them send you thank you Christmas cards but you told Dbro I wasn't to have your address.

You made a choice to leave and to do it the way you did. As I said in my last message, I haven't shut the door on you. We can be in contact if you wish, but stop pretending that I forced you to leave, you made that choice. All of this has been your choice. I have merely reacted to it.

But it's still me trying to make her see, which she clearly can't. Any repsonse at all is probably best to just stick to: You are welcome to send the children presents. Like I say, I've no idea why she seems to think she needs to ask permission now.

In other news, the house sale fell through but we saw a better one and are putting a deposit down tomorrow. :)

And don't worry, I haven't responded and may not at all. It just helps to write it out here. It's cathartic.

Yes, it is cathartic.

I have learned some things over the years, but my god I fall on my face still. specially socially -sigh-. how come I can see some things but not others?

I don't think this is an asking-permission from her exactly. more a cry that she's missing you underneath everything. But sadly, it's so very quickly overlaid with unbreakable manipulations and 'poor me's' and victimhood that it's impossible to break through the self-protective barrier to really communicate. It really is sad, but there is nothing anyone can do to reach through those barriers. Only she can do it :(

This is it with identifying details removed:

G2B
Thanks to 3 months on the highest dose of statins my cholesterol has now moved out of the Sudden Death range and my blood pressure has gone from Imminent Stroke to normal. Other health problems are manageable but I have been near enough a possible end to want to make sure you know who you are.

A paragraph about her father.

I just want you to know these things and maybe pass them on to the kids because I am not eternal and some day there will be no one who knows.

I want to send cards and presents to the children. You were wrong to say I didn't try to see them. I saw them on the school patio. The day I left, DD was wearing red trousers and a yellow top. She was all alone, wandering along by the fence with a dreamy look in her eyes and I couldn't stop crying. I never spoke to them because I wouldn't have upset them.

I didn't give you my address because I was afraid you would send their presents back. I didn't give it to X (her friend from uni) either because I was afraid if she knew I was alone at Christmas she might feel obliged. She still managed to get a card to me in time, with only the knowledge of my maiden name.

I used to assume I would live to be very old, like my mother but now I no longer either expect or wish that. I ask for nothing except to be allowed to send presents and cards to my very dearly loved DGS and DGD. It's up to you. You are the one who chose to walk away.

You keep saying I know what I did but I have no idea. You also said I had badmouthed your husband. I have never said a word to anyone about DH that I hadn't said to you.

You have always known me as a very truthful person. I leave the rest up to you. If you can throw away all those years of my love and care, all that striving to give you what your father wouldn't, then so be it.

Mum.

I think it is a kind of cry of sadness, but it's still so ME ME ME ME. She can't get past herself, can she? Which means I don't think there's any point entering into any discussions.

sorry GtB but I have NO patience with the '' approaching my end" card. Christ, it's low. She couldnt lay it on any heavier could she? and she's been doing this for what, 4 years since your first thread?

it's also so manipulative. If she was a reasonable person it would mostly look like you had been so hard hearted. But when you know what lies behind it, it's very different.

G2B,

Am so glad that you chose only to reply to this e-mail missive of your mother's via this thread. If you entered into any discussions your own ongoing recovery would be put back years, not months. She deserves no correspondence from you on any level let alone low contact. No, no and no again.

It is NOT possible to have any sort of relationship with a narcissist.

Its just more BS and nothing but from your mother. I do not know the woman but I know the type all too well and what she has written here is oh so typical narcissistic me me me. Such people too are incapable of feeling sadness in the usual senses of the word; its all about them and them alone. Everyone else is a bit player in the centre of their universe. She's just pissed that she has lost one source of her narc supply because you were her ready audience and its hard being the last one left. Note from her also that there is no taking any responsibility for her actions, let alone an apology.

Hi G2B

She is trying to suck you back in with the 'I'm not long for this world ploy'

And in a way she is right. She is a truthful person. The problem is, is that in her head she is speaking the truth. It is just everyone else who know it to be lies. In her head she is speaking 100% truth. She would probably even pass a lie detector test, not because it is the truth, but because she whole heartedly believes this is the truth. You can't fight that kind of delusion.

You could always do the whole, ignore all the bs and just respond to the Christmas present quiery. 'Hi mum, of course send the kids birthday presents. Just remember they won't be able to send you a thank you card in reply'

No more is needed really, if that.

The thing is, little old ladies are indeed old. Yes they aren't going to live forever, but to play on it is such a mean, mean trick. Some people'd have you run ragged like a slave for years all the while saying they've only got 6 months in them.

It has to be faced that yes one day she will die, and probably not in 20 years' time. But god, you can choose not to live your life a misery to yoruself and everyone else in the meantime!

sorry, I feel v strongly on this one.

Hi all. Just popping my head round the corner...

Good it's all awful but this bit is absolutely priceless:

She still managed to get a card to me in time, with only the knowledge of my maiden name.

My italics but her intention! Good GRIEF.

If you really cared about me, you'd have sought me out like she did, sob sob.

She is totally fucking crackerjack. And the way she doesn't get that badmouthing your DH to you is a problem.

No. She'll never change. All she says is that none of it is her; she's perfect, and the entirely blameless victim here. You are the bad daughter, bad bad bad!

Sympathies and solidarity.

Well, she's only 73, she could live another 20 years...her mother did!

But more seriously, I woke up this morning just stunned by the sheer batshittery of it really. And the narc logic which makes no sense and contradicts itself in the v next sentence. It's all totally nutty.
For instance, to paraphrase:
"I didn't want to give you my address in case you sent stuff back but my uni friend maanged to get me a xmas card only knowing the village (which I suppose she knows I know) and my maiden name".
So, I am such a bitch I can't be trusted with the address, vut I'm a lazy bitch as her friend sent her a card not knowing the address, clearly I didn't try. But if it's so easy to get post to her, why be so fucking spiteful as to withold the address, iyswim?
also, the only knowing her maiden name is such a crock of shit. The woman knew my dad, they all went to uni together, she has been wriitng to my mum as Mrs X not miss maiden name for about 50 fucking years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, yes xpost with Talkin "I only slagged him to YOU, I didn't tell anyone else I thought he was a fucking idle shit dad". Oh so that's OK. Apart from the fact that it's a lie as I know she told Dbro far worse about him. "DH sees G2B as his meal ticket, he sees rich mother, stupid daughter", anyone remember that gem?

missed that one...

I think you're right to get it out on here but not actually reply.

Trying to make her see your point of view comes from the idea that there actually is a reasonable person in there somewhere, who will understand if only you present the facts clearly and reasonably enough.

But that's the fallacy. These people, however educated and intelligent and reasonable they may appear in other ways, have this utter core of emotional unreason, and that is stronger than anything else in them, certainly stronger than the "love" they profess to have for us.

You're right not to engage! You'd only get sucked back into the same old dynamic. As you said, you spelled it out at Xmas, and she still "has no idea", she still believes that you walked away from her. Her denial is unshakeable.

If I reply at all it will just be:

Mum,

Of course you may send presents if you wish to.

All the best,
G2B

I wrote and updated my therapist about it and he said, "Keep life simple". His advice during therapy was to be true to myself and kind to myself, to do what made me feel good, not what I felt I ought to do. And to always take time to react or not react.

The total denial and twisting of everything just permeates everything. I mean, the person who emigrates accusing me of walking away. WTAF?

It's a real mind-fuck GtB. Used to make me wonder if reality is inverted and if I'm misunderstanding everything that goes on, or if she was.

Meerka I'm sorry I didn't reply sooner to your reply to my post on the previous page about my mother stropping because I dared to have plans when she wanted to come up. In answer to the question 'is this her final illness?'...well...no. She has been having these episodes for the past few years but moans that the hospital won't do anything about it but then refuses to go for the tests/treatment she is asked to go for. In a (probably large) nutshell she has these periods of profuse vomiting and waits until she is so bad that she ends up in A&E. They stabilise her with fluids (she won't drink tap water at home as she is convinced it is poisoned) as she is always dehydrated, and anti sickness drugs, keep her in for a couple of days and then discharge her to her GP, who arranges tests at various depts. which she then refuses to go for until the next time she gets profuse vomiting and gets so bad that she ends up in A&E again. This has happened, I think, 6 times now. This is why, even if I hadn't had the vomiting bug when she demanded that I go down to her this last time. I wouldn't have gone. I'm sick of it. It's the same thing over and over again. This time (perhaps because she didn't get the attention) she did go for some tests and she has been diagnosed with an ulcer, a hiatus hernia and barretts oesophagus which in layman's terms means that there are changes to the lining of her oesophagus and if left untreated it could become cancerous - rather like an abnormal smear if that makes sense? All of these things could have been dealt with 3 years ago if she had gone to the appointments she was meant to go to.

Anyway...after me being so unreasonable about not cancelling my plans on Friday I have not heard from her since last Sunday. Being mother's day yesterday I did buy her a card but I didn't post it. I felt a bit mean but at the same time I am not a hypocrite and it just felt wrong to send one. I have so many negative feelings towards her swimming around in my head that sending her a card saying thankyou for being a great mum just....no.

I am waiting for the fall out from that now.

I just checked back on my previous message to see if I have already mentioned this event but I haven't, so here it is and you will then see why I am finding it so hard to even speak to her right now...

When she was in hospital this time, she was in a ward of 6 beds. The woman opposite had just had a visit from her son and grandson and they had nipped home to pick up some bits and pieces for her. My mother noticed that the woman was becoming agitated, and she watched as the woman struggled, and she watched as the woman keeled over in her bed, and she watched as the woman died. All without alerting a nurse or a doctor, or calling to the woman if she needed help. She sat. And watched. And told me that she was going to call a nurse but if the woman had been ok my mother would have felt a fool, so she did nothing. She. sat. and. watched. the. woman. die! All because she didn't want to look silly in front of others. And do you know what she said after telling me this story?

'Why do these things always happen to me?'

I cannot get past this in my head. Isn't that involuntary manslaughter? The woman was only 62. Her son and grandson returned to the hospital to be told that she had died, and my mother sat and watched as they cried, and held her lifeless hand. And she said 'why do these things always happen to me?'

I can't get past this.

Hi vivvyen these people often use illness (real or imagined/exaggerated) for attention. Classic.

Meerka yes, I've even in my darkest moments wondered if somehow she didn't say all of that to Dbro but I think her reaction (immediate narc rage rather than contrition and trying to make amends) speaks volumes and answers that little doubt.

I really think she has got to the point where she believes the crap she writes to me. Therapist said there were "clearly elements of delusional thinking" on her part.

Hello all, didn't come online this weekend as with it being M-Day yesterday I was feeling a bit wobbly. Bought myself some new software on Saturday and spent most of the weekend happily geeking out and forgetting about my shitty parents!

Send my sis a text this morning to ask if she had sent mum a M-Day card, she said no as she could not bring herself to. So Mum will have had nowt at all. This has given me a bit of an attack of the guilts. But I remind myself that if she is feeling sad and lonely, that's because she is an unpleasant, nasty person who is stressful to be around.

Also it's not a patch on how sad and lonely I felt as a 12 year old who needed protection from being molested, not given a load of shit about how I was making a fuss about nothing

GTB maybe you should send your mum a present - a shovel, so that next time she can lay on the bullshit a bit thicker?!

Fucking hell, vivvyen! I'm not surprised you don't want to talk to her. I think some space would be good, maybe some therapy. Have you had any therapy about her?

Holy hell vivvyen [shocked]

Unbelievable levels of narcissism. I don't know the legal position but simply from a standpoint of common human decency, it's absolutely appalling.

I also find it hard to believe that she didn't call anyone from "embarrassment". Part of me wonders if she did it deliberately because it would create a drama, which from your previous description she absolutely thrives on.

That's why she doesn't attend follow-up appointments - too dull. Much more rewarding to her to create a massive drama and life-threatening situation (which can be milked for more emotional rewards) every six months or so, and watch with satisfaction as people drop everything and rush to her rescue.

Good no, I've never had therapy and I really do need some! my oldest 2 children are 18 and 20 so are great to talk to but I can't keep off loading on them. Trouble is I struggle for money at the best of times, so can't afford it.

Vivvyen just delurking to say that my very very fucked up late mother did a similar thing.

She was walking to her car in the work carpark, when someone who worked in the same building, also going to his car, had a heart attack. She didn't go to help him, even though he was calling out for help, because she thought it might have been a trick and he was trying to rob her And she said "why do these things always happen to me". She told me at the time (I was 10) and I swear a part of me stopped trusting her from that day on.

Amazing how someone else's actual DEATH is still ALL ABOUT THEM! My mother did make my dad's death quite a bit about her at the time, come to think of it. Refused to go to the funeral, "had to" go back on anti Ds....
She doesn't know FIL died, but I said at the time that if she had, that would no doubt have been all about her, too.

I read that in shock vivvyen. God that poor woman and her poor family.

Not even sure what to say, only that backing away a long long way is not something anyone could ever fault you for.

regarding the self-neglect though, yes, I really get that. You burn out after a while. "Oh, here we go again". It's a great way to make caring people run aorund after you, potentially-fatal illnesses ... that have come about because you won't cooperate with treatment.

I really do think you are very, very justified in not dropping everything and running to her. At all.