Struggling with in-law relationship, help please

[KLago10]

Hello,

I'm new here so hope I'm posting in the right place! I've written about the struggle I am having with maintaining any kind of healthy relationship with my mother in law, have not included everything but think the info below will give you a good picture of the situation

My mother in law has been trying to manipulate and guilt-trip us since I became pregnant last year (our baby is nearly a year old now). One of the first things she said was "I'll try not to interfere but you know I will". She assumed she would be in the labour room with us, and when we explained that it was a very private moment and it would just be the two of us she began getting watery-eyed and said she thought "we'd all be there". My pregnancy was incredibly difficult, my baby was small (always measuring 6 weeks behind), I had SPD and was on crutches, and I had to take my maternity leave at around 28 weeks. Even knowing this, my mother in law proceeded to shout over me to my consultant and tried to dictate the date on which I'd be induced despite it being against my wishes. I was getting a tough time at work because of my boss (he was found guilty of sexually harassing me), and when I got upset she called me weak, saying "well fiance wouldn't know what to do with you when you're like that because he's never seen me be weak".

When we found out we were having a girl (she had three boys), she became even worse. Since our baby has arrived she puts pressure on us for babysitting duties, gets jealous and makes us feel guilty if anybody else visits - including my family (Mum is 3 hours away, Dad lives abroad so visits are once every three months or so) and even her own sons. She visits more than anybody to try and appease her, but it doesn't work.

We have tried speaking with her about the way she is making us feel, but upon talking to her she went and told the family a manipulated version of the conversation and played the victim. It was incredibly stressful for us when we were just trying to put in place some healthy boundaries, and were very kind when we spoke to her. We had not mentioned the issues we were having with either of our families out of respect to her. She even spread lies during my fiancés brothers wedding reception, and said I was out of order for not letting her have our baby overnight. She had been drinking steadily throughout the day, our baby wasn't sleeping well and she has said before that she'd leave my fiance to cry when he was a small baby just because she was tired - I feel this is irresponsible as as parents we don't believe in leaving our child to cry. If she is crying there is a reason, even if it's just needing a cuddle which we always have time for because we want her to grow up feeling secure and knowing we care about her.

My fiancé and I have been having a very difficult time lately, mainly due to her behaviour. We missed a call from her, as we were out at the time and called her back later just to give her an update and we were going to arrange another visit with her. She used this conversation to cut off my fiancé from speaking, and chose to guilt-trip him on us wanting to spend our first Christmas with our daughter at home (we didn't say no visitors, we just want to relax as it's been such a busy year). She said "well it would have been nice if you wanted to spend Christmas with me", then told my fiance that we're shutting her out of our lives and we make her feel very unwelcome when she visits. This particularly hurt me as I've always made a lot of effort with her despite how she has treated me over these past 18 months or so. If I have the time, I even bake her a cake I know she likes ready for when she gets to our home. I've always considered these visits to be fine, we'd talk and share stories of what we'd been up to, we'd ask her if she wanted to feed our daughter her dinner (she always declined) and she has actually seen us more than anybody on either side of the family since our daughter arrived. Finally, she ended the conversation by telling my fiance she looks forward to getting an update, "whenever that might be", and slammed the phone down on him. Again I was hurt by this as I always make sure to send her photos each week and let her know what we're up to and if our daughter is doing anything new e.g. Crawling, standing up, etc.

It has got to a point now where we have tried to communicate our feelings to MIL, however she seems to have disregarded the whole conversation and has carried on as she was before. Despite all of this I have always encouraged my fiancé to make an effort with her, but she has really gone too far this time and my fiancé's health is starting to suffer - he has been diagnosed with depression which he mainly attributes to how his mother has treated him.

It feels as if nothing we ever do is good enough, we give her a lot of our time, at the expense of seeing other members of our family in an attempt to keep her happy, but this has clearly failed.

I don't know where this leaves us with regards to having any kind of a healthy relationship with her, she has continued to ignore our feelings and we are worried that she will behave in this way around our daughter as she grows older, and my daughter won't be aware that this is not the way we treat people.

Any help or suggestions about this situation would be very helpful. Thank you

That is very sad for all of you; but you are putting a stop to it and will have a much happier future due to your decisive actions now, so congratulations to you and to your dh as getting to this point is really hard. Well done.

Don't get sucked in and enjoy your lovely family! What a good Christmas you will have visiting all your lovely relatives and having them over, without worry or guilt. Good luck.

Thank you very much!

MIL still hasn't apologised, rather than get upset/angry I just see it as reinforcement that she'll never change and I've done completely the right thing for me and dd. I've turned my attention to planning a special first Christmas for dd, feeling much happier thanks to all your support

Have a lovely Christmas xx

Hi all,

So I haven't posted since before Christmas but I'm now back as the situation has escalated and is getting out of hand. I've bulletpointed this and hope it's straight forward to read.

This is what has happened since my last post:

*DP went over to MIL's a few days before Christmas, he said it was very awkward and hardly any talking. They swapped presents, MIL just said "give me an update every week or so so I know what you're up to" and that was it.
*On Christmas Day MIL called the house first thing, spoke to DP (general Christmas conversation) then wanted to speak to me. As DP and I have discussed that I'm not interested in engaging with her, DP explained that I was in the shower/getting ready (he was going to have a conversation with MIL about this at a later date, but Christmas Day is not the right day to do it) MIL called a further 4-5 times on Christmas Day, no voicemails left. Our DD was ill with a virus over Christmas and MIL was aware of this, we had our hands full and we were trying to make the best of our first Christmas together as a family but the constant pestering put a massive downer on the day
*On Boxing Day MIL called first thing to have a go at DP, basically for us not spending Christmas with her. She then went on to say that we'll never spend Christmas with her (I've definitely had conversations with her that after DD's first Christmas we'll go to a different parent each year so everyone gets a chance to spend Christmases with DD). MIL then said we're not letting her be a part of our lives, we'll only ever go to my Mum's for Christmas (she's 100 miles away, see her only once every 2-3 months but there seems to be some jealousy on her side). DP tried to voice his concern explaining that she knows that's not the case, she doesn't listen to him, it feels like we make so much effort and see her more than anyone but it's never enough and it's making us unhappy. MIL raised her voice and said "Fine. I get the message. LOUD AND CLEAR. I will never speak to either of you again" and slammed the phone down on DP (again). DP punched a wall after this, had bloody knuckles (just want to say here that DP is NOT violent in any way, this happened away from DD and I and he has never so much as raised his voice to either of us). I believe this happened out of sheer frustration
*MIL sent birthday card for DD earlier in the month, no phone call to wish her a happy birthday and to apologise, no other communication
*We held a small party at home for DD's birthday, discussed inviting MIL but DP felt as there had been no apology or effort to undo some of the damage she has caused, that we go ahead with the party without her. As she has cut us off she will miss these events and that has been her decision, not ours.
*The next thing we get is DP's father calling us (MIL and FIL have been divorced for over 10 years, haven't maintained a friendship. Both have remarried) telling DP to "be a big boy and make it right with MIL", not asking for DP's side of the story. DP's father told him that MIL had only said that we won't speak to her and she doesn't understand why, so DP filled him in on what has been going on. MIL had also told him that she knows about the party we had and is devastated that we didn't invite her. FIL apologised profusely, firstly for getting involved and secondly for not asking for DP's side of the story and just believing MIL. Although this was silly, FIL is a genuinely nice person, probably thought he was helping and was well-intentioned but it made DP more stressed about the situation. DP did not contact MIL after this, and felt that this was a stunt in an attempt to make DP get in touch with her
*DP has received a couple of texts since about MIL just 'popping' over and bringing an elderly relative for a visit. DP has not responded as again no apology has been offered, if MIL could just apologise by phone/letter/asking to see DP on her own then there may have been something to work with, but DP feels as if MIL is trying to just go back to how it was before and hope we'll go along with it. To use the elderly relative is quite manipulative as she knows that meant we were saying no to that relative too, which would make us look bad
*A couple of days ago DP had a text from his DB saying this is getting out of hand and he needs to make things right with MIL. The reason he gave was simply because she is his mother. He also said he doesn't know the in's and out's, so DP now has even more pressure from family to basically give in and just forget about everything because it's making it awkward for them. There was also mention of MIL having a health scare and that this situation is affecting her health

I would really appreciate some advice here. I'm worried most about my DP's depression escalating, he has only very recently returned to work and before the contact with his DF and DB had really picked up and was looking and feeling so much better. I just feel quite lost trying to support my DP, being hurt by MIL's actions myself and also feeling frustrated that people are getting involved but not asking how we feel or asking us what has happened.

Sorry that the post is so long, I thought it was important to include a proper update of the situation. Thanks x

As other respondents have rightly suggested, this has indeed got worse. There was really no other outcome and all that you have written is of no surprise to me at all sadly.

I hope you yourself went onto block all her means of communication to you. That has to happen in any case now if it has not already.

His mother will NEVER apologise to you both ever, she really does think she has done nothing wrong here. Her actions are precisely how such disordered people operate.

Your DH and you need to cut his mother off completely. NC is precisely that and you both need to completely disengage now because she will and is going all out here to wreck your family unit. There is no reasoning ever with such people because its her way only that matters to her.

His mistake here was to actually go visit his mother at all over the Christmas period and swap presents. He really is very much still in fear, obligation and guilt state with regards to his mother isn't he to do that. He may well think on some level that she will apologise, change and or accept responsibility for her actions. Such disordered people never apologise, change nor accept such responsibility and he has to fully accept that.

His mother has also employed the usual methods such toxic people use to bring their unfortunate victims back into line; the use of her ex H, this other relative that MIL wants to bring along for a visit and other son as "flying monkeys" (they are also being manipulated here) and a previously unknown health scare. Bystanders like his brother act out of self preservation and want of a quiet life; he also being weak has acted as expected.

Will your DH be willing to talk to a counsellor or therapist about this dysfunctional and abusive relationship with his mother. Importantly he needs to find someone that has no bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment. So the first person he sees may not be the right one for him.

Sympathies. Attila has it spot on. We had similar, very odd MIL, and Attillas words that you cannot apply normal reasonable rules to people like that really helped us.

You have more power than you realise remember that. You have dd. What worked for us was DH disengaging and telling his mother he would not be treated like that and going NC. She then "didn't speak" to us for months. Brilliant. We have let ILs back into our lives but they have got the message and MIL is careful now. She (was) of the firm opinion that because DH is her son she can treat him as she wants she even said this. How messed up is that. No concept of needing to form decent adult relationships with her sons at all. She used DHs brother as her flying monkey just like in your case.

The big difference for us is that my DH genuinely doesn't care he wants to cut her out but I feel that would be too cruel especially to FIL and they are great with our DC. We see them once a year they have just left. Admittedly DH and my alcohol consumption over the last week has been enormous to get through the visit...

Hi OP,
I've not been in your situation, but I fully agree with all the posters (unanimous!) about raising your boundaries and being really solid about tactics with your DH.

However I question the idea of getting her to 'apologise for the stunts she's pulled and to listen to exactly how we both feel about her'. Don't be tempted! This sounds like you'll be giving her loads more ammunition and a means for digging herself back in. It won't achieve an apology and she would probably just use what you're saying to her as a massive opportunity to give you more outrageous manipulative nonsense.

Secondly, why tell her how you both feel about her? She has a track record of completely ignoring any of the ways in which you have tried to communicate with her in the past like you would with a normal person. She's bonkers - don't try and assume she isn't! Again - throw out the rule book. Don't give her any more ammo - she won't sit there and listen nicely - instead she will throw everything at it - martydom, victimhood, blackmail, accusations, loony stuff. Do you really want to give her this opportunity? Just block her. Don't give her this - you would be lobbing her a really easy ball which she will knock out of the park.

Start now as you mean to go on. Decide privately on tactics with DH and what level of contact - or non-contact in your case - that you want and just apply it. Then get on with your life!

Whoops - sorry, missed your last post. Will read.

Oh - sorry she ruined your Christmas. At least you know there is no point in giving her any more 'last chances.

I second what Attila said. It's all spot on. You need to look after your family unit. The fact that she manipulates other family members to put pressure on you, just shows that she really will pull all the levers she can. They in their turn want an easy life, and if you go NC that means they actually have to deal with the problem instead of leaving it to you. You are doing the right thing. And yes it does sound like your DH could do with some helpful therapy as he has had lifetime of this, not easy to get out of the conditioning he has suffered and therefore it's not his fault he can't see the wood for the trees.

At least you are united. That is really encouraging. It sounds like you are very supportive of each other and she hasn't succeeded in putting a wedge between you. That is something you should be proud of.

She won't ever apologise and mean it, ever. Nothing you say will change her behaviour and he's not going to get the (reasonable and just) response that he wants so badly... I understand why he wants it, it would validate his feelings and it might give him a sliver of hope that she is redeemable somewhere, but she's not. It does sound like he needs support with this from a counsellor and from you. If he's saying NC, go with it and stand by him all the way even where he falters and lets her in only for another ridiculous and hurtful performance because it will happen. Poor you, poor your DH. People often don't understand why you might cut off from a parent, so he has to be okay with his decision despite what other members of the family might say.

She sounds so utterly vile. I'm reading your recent post again and am so angry on your behalf... His DB has been very unhelpful and completely manipulated by her.

By the way I think you are really doing well with supporting him with this so far and it must be really difficult especially with a baby.

As far as other people go, I'd counter them by saying how hurt you feel that they would feel you'd not be in context with MIL for anything that wasn't very serious and that they don't respect you enough to understand that. That you've done everyone else the courtesy of not dragging them into this and don't want your issues to sour their opinions of her which is why you've not shared details.

Great response Joysmum. There isn't a smiley for a high five but if there was I'd send it to you

OP: You talk a lot about your mother in law making 'choices' in her behaviour (which is atrocious). It's time for you to make a choice not to be the victim of it, and not to let it hurt you.

None of the decisions that you have made are at all unreasonable. You know this. Your partner knows it. Her reactions, however, have been those of an egotistical and interfering person. It's time for you to have confidence in your judgement and to say 'It's not us, it's her'.

The easy thing to do would be to go no contact with her. However, I would suggest that this would be stressful for you and your DP and likely to lead to wider family pressures. Instead, I'd suggest that you and DP need to build boundaries so that her behaviour doesn't hurt you. When you make a reasonable decision and she reacts poorly, just shrug. Don't try to make her feel better - make it clear that her reaction is up to her, and that she's not getting anywhere by being this unreasonable.

I would also reduce contact with her, both on the phone and in real life. Set yourselves a limit to your conversation/visit and don't deviate from it.

When she realises that there are boundaries you will get the following reactions: anger/fury, grief, denial, emotional manipulation, and emotional manipulation at one remove (i.e. involving other family members). It will not be pleasant. You need to stay completely aloof from all of them and keep telling yourselves that it is not your fault. Once she's run through the range, there may be a chance that she'll realise that you are serious and she needs to adopt a different approach.

To be honest, she sounds lonely (small wonder, given her behaviour) and like she expects you to compensate for her lack of social life. DON'T DO IT!

PS The health scare thing is the oldest trick in the book. You are not being bad people to treat it with healthy skepticism until you have evidence that there is actually something wrong.

things like this always get worse before they get better.

your mil has learned to control people with guilt and manipulation. you stopped responding as she had hoped so she is escalating her tactics by including other people to increase the guilt and manipulation.

you have to stand firm. eventually she will run out of guilt and manipulation and will try other things.

the key is to only give her what she wants (attention) when she behaves like a rational human being.

my experience is that things get way worse (no contact) before they start to improve. it probably took two years from when I started to stand up to my mum before she started to behave in a way I could tolerate but we do have a good relationship now. every now and again she does something unpleasant or emotionally abusive and I just shut it down completely.

it helps me sometimes to imagine her as a naughty toddler, do not reward bad behaviour with attention but respond positively to good behavior.

Plan also to handle the winged monkeys! ... and here they come.

This -is- normal (or at least, extremely common) behaviour for someone who is extremely overbearing and who wants their own way and their slightest whim satisfied. Saying No to them over anything often results in appalling tantrums. If they can't get what they want by tantrumming then they send in relatives and friends to put pressure on, the flying monkeys. And yes, health scares will come next.

She's telling people half the story. Your FIL sounds like a very decent man and he apologised, I can see how his call was stressful but dealing with someone like your MIL, I'm afraid, is going to involve stress until you come out of the other side. That will happen in the end btw. You will come out the other side - but there may be a legacy of bitterness with your BIL sadly.

If you hold to your guns, the storm will eventually pass.

When people get in contact, all you can do is calmly give them the full version of events. If anyone says well you shoudl make it up, you can simply say "We need an apology and a trustworthy commitment that she will respect our reasonable wishes, then we can meet in the middle with her". That is entirely reasonable.

Please do read Toxic Parents. it gives a lot of useful information on the tactics people like your MIL use and ways to stand up to them.

Stay strong, KLago10. You arent through the storms yet but you need to stay strong and hold out for what you and your fiance want, which is a trouble-free life.

I think you do have to face that the only option might be no contact yes. She sounds completely unable to accept boundaries and it is NOT ok to have your baby's first year ruined by her.

In terms of how to support your fiancé -

1. reassure him he's doing the right thing for his little nuclear family by going LC or NC, as often as he needs it. Remind him of the things she's done.

2. lay out as often as you need what would be reasonable - some contact, if she can behave ok once an apology and commitment is given.

3. if you can, try to handle the calls from the flying monkeys. If your fiancé's mental health has been suffering because of her actions and manipulations - you really need to insulate him as much as possible from her.

4. Get Toxic Parents, really =)

5. Support him if he decides to go permanently NC becuase the price is too high or because she can't be trusted to keep her word.

6. even if there are health 'scares' ... and there will probably be! ... keep firm, that you need a genuine apology from her. Unless there is incontrovertible evidence from someone independent that she is genuinely ill, ignore the rest and keep asking for that apology.

7. She may turn up on the doorstep. If she does do not let her in the house. Tell her she is harassing you and that if she doesn't stop, you will have to consider involving the police.

Remember. Pleasant, decent people do not leave a wake of hurt, stress and depressoin behind them. It's hard to stand up to the bulldozers but sometimes it has to be done.

/essay over!

There comes a time to say that you can't and wont deal with this any more. You can't control her so the time has come to disengage. No more explanations/negotiations. I think you're right to go NC with her even if your DH wants to have minimal contact you don't have to speak to her ever again. She will destroy your mental health and come between you and your DH so make sure you discuss everything with DH and you and he are a tight unit. Sounds like you and he are. As for these family members I notice that none of them asked for your side of the story. They don't really want to know, they just want an easy life so don't discuss it with them either.

It is hard when you are a normal decent person who gets on with pretty much everyone else having (not through choice) an unreasonable loon in your life. Under normal circumstances you would distance yourself from such a person but this is made difficult by the whole family tie thing.

My MIL on their miserable annual visit last week described my job as "something for abit of pocket money". I am a solicitor who more than pays the mortgage with my salary. Wouldn't put with such belittling crap from anyone else but she is my children's grandmother so have to keep seeing her albeit rarely.

Atilla
Thank you for your insight, it's really helpful. I blocked all forms of contact with MIL back in early December. Also, she has not tried to get through DP through me as she usually would. I imagine this is because I've ignored her stream of emails and calls.
It definitely feels as if she's trying everything in her little bag of tricks to get some kind of contact going again, but as I've gone NC already I can almost predict her next move. So although it's frustrating, it's boring as well for me now.
People seem to be running around trying to make us contact her so that it's better for her, meanwhile not actually asking us how we feel, or for our version of events etc. It seems to be 'who shouts the loudest' wins, so she'll win every time.

My DP has been receiving counselling for over a month now and he's definitely coming out of the fog. He has said his only worry about going NC is that his brothers will side with her and he'll lose them too. I have to say his counsellor sounds fantastic and has dealt with this situation many times before so has really helped my DP to unravel his thoughts and feelings, and he's thinking of what action to take now. It is definitely leaning towards complete NC.

KERALA
It does sound as if your situation is very similar, and how horrific that your MIL actually said that! I really feel for you. I also think we are similar in that my DP desperately wants to go NC, and I'm carrying a feeling of guilt still. I do feel like I can breathe easier knowing that I don't have contact anymore. My MIL tried to dictate all aspects of our lives, I landed my dream job at the end of last year and all she could care about was asking how much money I'll be earning.. She knew I'd wanted that job for over ten years and I finally had it. My DP's counsellor has analysed the situation and has suggested that my MIL genuinely sees herself as my child's mum (eurgh.. makes me feel ill) because she didn't have a daughter and feels entitled to have whatever time with her she wishes and she can say whatever she likes because she honestly believes she is superior to everyone else. She has groomed my child several times like a lioness would groom her cub whilst staring at me (with her mouth/tongue. Yep..) How wrong is that.

PoppyField
Thank you, I'm under no illusions in terms of getting a sincere apology. My DP has told me she has never apologised to anyone her entire life!
You made a really good point re telling her how we feel, she's completely ignored all other attempts and it was only when I read your comment that I questioned why bother? She hasn't taken any notice before so why would it be different this time.
This really has pulled us together, we know having a relationship with her of any kind ends up in us being hurt. My DP is making a firm decision this week as so what he wants to do, I think if he did decide to try and repair things then he would open himself up to even more hurt. But I just have to be there and support him whatever he decides.

Sixandtwothrees
Yes unfortunately his brother is very much in a fog with MIL, he does live with her so she'll be bending his ear about all of this so I do feel for him. I think he just wants some normality again, as it must be hard to be around her in this situation. He's really my favourite member of my DP's family (all of his family are great, but he in particular is fun to be around and very chilled out), so sincere and funny, and a brilliant loving uncle to my DP.
Thank you so much, that is really kind of you to say. It's nice to feel like someone is giving you a pat on the back.

Joysmum
Thank you, this is what I've been saying to DP. At no point through the past 18 months have we dragged anyone into this. We've remained quiet and tried to really work with MIL to make a situation which makes everyone happy whilst still not compromising our boundaries. Clearly hasn't worked!

Shovetheholly
You're right, everything we've tried to do/say we need is completely reasonable. MIL has her own rule book which is different to everyone else's and we can never win.
I understand your point about NC being very stressful. I think whatever we decide we know there's a lot of stress in store for us, our concern is that if MIL is allowed contact with DD, she would always pressure us to let her babysit and look after her when we are at work (she did this every time she visited) and we are worried that MIL will do the same damage to DD that she has done to her son. It's not a situation I will put my DD in. I'm also questioning how fair it would be to expect us to put up with a huge tantrum every time she doesn't agree with something? She would disagree with us most of the time about our plans, visits to other people, etc. And yes she is lonely, she told me a while back that she regrets her divorce, and DP's stepfather really isn't an emotionally intelligent man so I feel like she doesn't get the support she needs. She does have a very full social life though. But still, not an excuse to project everything onto us.

TeenageMutant
You are definitely right, she's sending others to do her work for her now. It's very frustrating, if only she could have apologised back when she was out of order, or even now. But she seems unable to put her energy into that.

Meerka
The whole family pacify her and this is what she expects. Because her tantrums are absolute agony to be on the receiving end of, people just give in and make everything better for her. When you 'rebel', she withdraws her love. It's quite twisted.
FIL and BIL definitely mean well, I'm slightly concerned that they'll keep trying to make DP speak to her and it will lead to a fall-out, but when DP explained his depression/being signed off work/receiving counselling he didn't mention her again. So maybe he has realised how painful this is for DP and how much it has affected him? Will definitely buy Toxic Parents for DP, it sounds invaluable in a situation like this. And thank you for your essay! It all makes complete sense to me, and I value your input on this.

ChickenMe
That really was spot on! Nope, nobody has cared to ask about us. And they've even acknowledged the fact that they don't know what's gone on. Thanks for supporting the situation re NC/no NC with DP and me, whatever he decides I'll be supporting him every step of the way. He's such a lovely person, his happiness honestly means everything to me after what he's been through.

Really appreciate everyone who's taken the time to write some advice/feedback, or just anyone who's reading and is supportive! x

Hi KERALA,

re your comment:-

"Wouldn't put with such belittling crap from anyone else but she is my children's grandmother so have to keep seeing her albeit rarely".

Actually no KERALA you do not have to keep seeing her albeit rarely. Your children do not benefit from seeing you as their mother so belittled and disrespected by their grandparents and they are also being subjected to their emotional manipulation each time they visit. if these people cannot and or will not behave they do not get to see any of you.

You also rightly state that you would not put up with any of this from anyone else (or a friend); I put it to you that family are no different.

"People seem to be running around trying to make us contact her so that it's better for her, meanwhile not actually asking us how we feel, or for our version of events etc. It seems to be 'who shouts the loudest' wins, so she'll win every time."

Hi KLago10,

Re your above comment,

They do this because it is better for them, they would much rather you cop her wrath than they and they also have their own reasons of self interest for acting in that way too. They are the bystanders who act out of self preservation and want of a quiet life.

What your response to me shows as well is that both of you are on the right road. I am also heartened to see that your DH is seeing someone who is fitting in with his approach. Keep going!!!.

If anyone should feel at all guilty here it is solely his mother but such disordered of thinking people do not feel any guilt at all. She still feels hard done by regardless.

Gosh she sounds bloody awful, no wonder your DP is struggling. It's good that he's getting counselling and I'm sure this will pay off eventually.

In the meantime, could you handle calls with his DB and just explain that, whilst you appreciate that he's just trying to help, he is not furnished with all the facts. You and your DP are trying to do what is best for your family and you have no wish to drag anyone else into it but that your DH is suffering with depression which is linked to what is going too and doesn't need further stress from well meaning relatives trying to get involved.

God she sounds awful, mine are relative saints by comparison.
Does she come on here btw, I just realised you name changed earlier in the thread?

OP, you said: "Our concern is that if MIL is allowed contact with DD, she would always pressure us to let her babysit and look after her when we are at work (she did this every time she visited) and we are worried that MIL will do the same damage to DD that she has done to her son"

Whether you decide to go NC or to try to manage this relationship in the short term (and it really is totally up to you), you need to take something on board for the long term which is this: she can only 'pressure you' if you allow her to. She can only make you react if you allow her to.

For instance, clearly, you absolutely CANNOT allow her to babysit your DD. To do so would be madness. She cannot 'make' you do anything you don't want to do - you are adults! Don't let her put you both back into the role of children. Whatever her reaction is - whether she freaks out, gets angry, cries, screams - you need to realise that you are able and willing to stay firm and say no. You don't even need to feel bad about it - she is the one being unreasonable.

The reason I say this is that I think the response to many of these situations is often a combination of NC and contact with firm boundaries. A lot of people are NC for a while, and then open up again. So if you don't sort the boundaries out now, then the NC is just delaying the eventual problem which is a need to 'push back' at the unreasonable pressure.

My personal advice just now - and this is based on nothing more than a smart power-play - would be not to go NC just yet, but to start hardening your boundaries and practicing saying no, in the almost certain knowledge that you will precipitate a tantrum on her part. Not only does this exercise your abilities to be firm (useful for the future), but it will also give you the evidence you need to present to the rest of the family that her demands and reactions are not quite all there. The key is to get it all on tape, so you can play it to your DH's other relations when they ring up and accuse you of being unreasonable.