During your childhood, how much would the following affect you as an adult?

[lauren42]

Hi everyone,

I posted the other day about a current issue with my P, and after the really helpful advice, I am being abit cheeky and seeking further opinion on a bit of a different, broader topic - though still connected to the mother!!!

How much do you think the following, if at all, would affect an only child:

• in years leading up to divorce, mother tells son regularly that she wants to leave father
• father and mother seen fighting on the kitchen floor with each other with utensils (not sure if this was a one off or regular occurance)
• son sees father hiting his mother
• at age 7, he forgets mum's birthday, and in the morning sees dad giving mum a present. he goes to bedroom and finds a new pen in a drawer to wrap up for mother, and takes it to her. she screams and shouts at son and husband because son had forgotten her birthday - apparently son should have remembered and father should have bought present on son's behalf.
• parents divorce - he is age 14 and goes to live with mother
• when father comes to pick son up for days out, mother leaves the property 15 mins beforehand and tells son not to allow father to see the family dog (the dog went to live with mother after divorce)
• mother calls father on regular basis and shouts at him abotu money and obligations he is not fulfilling
• mother tells son his father won't pay for a school trip so he cannot go (a day before they are due to leave)
• age 17, son stops seeing dad for 2 years. he has never told me why.
• age 18, son goes home to see mother, and mother disappears all night drinking and son ends up calling police because she doesn't answer her phone 2 hours after expeting her home - mother thinks this is hilarious
• at son's graduation, mother creates a huge row with father, and leaves son in tears - they both leave.

There are plenty more things in adulthood I could reference, but I am specifically interested in your thoughts on what this can do to someone as a child.

If I am honest, I am skeptical that any of the above can have any effect...I am lucky and came from a very stable background and yes I saw my paretns argue, but essentially I was very well looked after and felt like the centre of my parents' universe. My mum has told me I should be careful with my partner because 'i cant know what damage was done to him.' Is she right? are the above events all that damaging? Obviously I know they are not 'right' - just to clarify!

Parther speaks to both parents now, though he seems more like his mother's carer, and his dad's friend - not the typical parental relationship I have been used to.

Agree with Chandon's comment

Well like others say you can't fix him and nor can you force him to examine his childhood differently and go through the incredibly painful process of accepting how dysfunctional it really was.

Yes of course he is hugely damaged by those experiences, maybe read up on how we form attachments with our primary caregivers to help you understand a little bit more, just for your own peace of mind?

What you can do is figure out how much his current behaviour is affecting you and your relationship. If he is acting in ways which are damaging then you can ask him to address these and yes suggest therapy and so on. My advice would be to have a think about what parts of his behaviour affect you and why.

For example Xmas. Is it really a big deal if he has a different viewpoint to you and feels differently? If he is not actively ruining it for anyone?

If anyone thinks they need counselling or other mental health, do go to your GP. I was lucky to get a psychotherapist as they saw I had already seen a counsellor and it didn't seem to have worked. I have a good GP luckily. The wait is long for an appointment, but worth it I thought.

I have a bit of me that thinks I am actually not built to live with anyone else now - I am scared of the person it turns me into and how vulnerable I feel and I couldn't put my daughter through that. I'm far stronger alone, but am aware I still need to be able to ask for help. I am happier this way and can see that this is partly my control-ish nature but also that I am damaged and I don't have the patience to see the point in a relationship now. I am mid 30's and am aware this sounds ridiculous but I am not willing to keep trying and breaking my life apart to fit into a 'normal' 2.4 family when I have never had it and don't know the rules!

I think you are trying to help but could end up pushing him away if he feels he has to choose between you and his parents. I couldn't admit a lot of things until my mother died, idolised her for years after in fact. I can see it for what it was now but it is far more painful not to have that protective forcefield of blissful ignorance around those relationships. Be wary of prodding the hornets' nest.

Norest - the main aspects that affect me and him are his lack of ability to make deciisons (sounds petty but this transpires into a lot of confusion and misunderstanding between us), and also his inability to communicate openly, and finally, when something difficult logistically or situational crops up ie chrismtmas dilemma as to who we should see in what order etc, he will withdraw completely and won't address it. He also has a lot of issues with trusting me - which is ridiculous if you knew me as I couldn't have a stonger opinion against cheating if I tried!

How can I know if this is 'him,' or whether it stems from this seemingly abusive relationship with his mother? If I were to ask him, he would of coruse say his childhood was fine. Maybe it is just him, I'm not a therapist so how should I know?

Lioninthesun - did you honestly not think your reltatinship with your mother had affected you? Did anyone ever insinuate that it may have done, and if so what was your reaction? Why did you idolise her and what made you change your mind? (If you don't mind me asking).

Thank you.

If I am honest, I am skeptical that any of the above can have any effect...

You can't be serious. I understand that you had a good, stable upbringing, but come on. Can you really not see that seeing your parents behave in awful ways towards each other and towards their child practically on a daily basis would have a damaging effect on anyone?

DistanceCall - thanks for your response.

I think I have been misunderstood with that sentence! What I meant was, I was skeptical it could have the severe effect my mum suggested it might have had on my partner. She said he coud be deeply damaged by it and not know how to function properly now....

My thoughts on feeling skeptical are also because my partner seems adamant he had a happy childhood and seems to have his mother on a pedestal...though the comments on here have helped ot explain why that is.

Does that explain my comment a bit better?

I don't know if this is information is of any value here, but it might be worth mentioning that my partner has always had some issues with sex. It's hard to explain as sex is god between us, but it has always been very conventional and 'tidy' as if done through obligation. It is almost as if he doesn't feel grown up enough to let go completely...that's how it has always seemed to me.

Since the day we met my partner has initiated sex perhaps 5 times. We have had endless discussions about it and he says he's just not that sexually driven. He has been that way since day one together.

Be aware that this shit can also rear it's head when parenting.

Recognising that it was abuse and breaking the cycle before you repeat the same behaviour with your own kids is extremely important.

My dad was 80 when he first admitted that his childhood was abusive and his mother an abuser, she had been dead for nearly 10 years. Even then, I had to push it.

Do not underestimate how abused children are trained to think the way their parent wants FOREVER.

His relationship with his mother is deeply unhealthy. I think his defensiveness when you raise the issue may indicate he does somehow know this is wrong but can't deal with it. Children with abusive parents are only permitted to see one "truth" by their parents and any personal feelings he would have would have been repressed and labelled as "wrong" and "shameful". His mother has trained him to only think of her and ignore his own happiness. He currently sees himself only as an extension of her. For this reason he won't be fully engaged with either you or your children because his primary "programme" is to attend to his mothers emotional needs.

You are spot on saying your DH's childhood has produced a damaged adult.
The lack of sex initiation is suggestive of "spousification" (please google this term) and that your DH's primary emotional bond is still with his mother when he was about 6. He hasn't grown into a normal functioning adult.

the things that in this particular situation are possible causes for concern, from your two threads;

• the super defensiveness of her
• the way she dislikes you. Sometimes two people just don't get on but it seems that this dislike is less to do with your personality than your existance as his GF.
• encouraging him not to live with you
• the insistance that her son go to all her scans.

- her inability to sustain relationships at all, from what you say, friendships or closer (does she have any close friendships that she has managed to sustain?)

• the way she "she would be really vile about him - something she does about most people in fact"
• The refusal of your partner to even mention this to you until the issue was forced by his rather noticeable withdrawal. (in other circumstances that might be just him, but in the overall pattern it's odd).
• the way you've only seen your partner for 8 days in 2-3 months. Then on top of that, in the 2 weeks over the holiday he wants to see him mum THREE times. If there was imminant danger of death or if she was first diagnosed, it's understandable. But in these circumstances it's odd - especially when he knows you are struggling and feeling neglected. he doesn't seem to care :/

-"If I mention that we have things to sort out, he won't agree. He will say I'm being over the top, and then, if he does admit something eeds to be changed, he is BRILLIANT at talking the talk, but action-wise? Absolutely nothing" -refusal to admit his childhood might have been anything but fine and his super defensiveness about it.

• the issues with sex might be just him, but if they are there now, it's only likely to get worse not better if he's not sexually driven, especially with the worry about his mother atm. Sick mothers that's your insanely worried about and a good sex life don't go together.

Most of these are not giant red flags on their own, but the sum total is concerning.

It might not be as bad as your mum is suggesting, but assuming she's met him she's probably picking up on stuff that you are not yet able to see. Sorry to pull this shit, but sometimes older people have the experience that younger people havent yet had ... and hopefully never will.

I don't know. Maybe I'm reading too much into it. But the sum total of what you've said is not particularly hopeful to my mind ... if it could come good it would take many years for him to begin to talk or to (even better) take actoin.

Thanks Meerka.

It might also be worth adding that she has twice now suggested she moves down to where he lives and moves in with him into rented accomm.

I found this completely inappropriate, he said he didn't waqnt to do it but didn't seem as taken aback by her suggested as I did.

I think it's unfortunate that this is the situation with his mother as it opens up the possibility that myself as her just do not get on. I can honestly say that I don't think it is as simple as that because I've done all possible to get on with her. I have also suggested going with her to the appointkent her son couldn't make...again she didn't 'want my pity.'

I wish my P could see all this, but I fear he never will.

Our childhoods most certainly shape who we are. Reading your post, it seems the ill treatment he underwent from his mother as a child has continued into adulthood. He will have begun to develop coping mechanisms and defenses from an infant.

Have a google of attachment theory, John Bowlby and Mary Ainsworth. It will give an insight into his behaviour, but you can't "fix" him. Only he can do that, with the guidance of a good psychotherapist/counsellor.

so, er, she wants you two to live apart (from your prev thread iirc) but for her to move in with him?

P just mentioned is num has asked again about the living together.

He sounded upset and I asked why - he got defensive and said nothing, and that he wasnt going to live with her.

I aksed if he felt affected in any way by anything that happnened in the past that he has told me about... his reaction:

your're suggesting i have a mental problem?? Do you know how hurtful that is?

And then a lot of shouting followed...

What do I do now? :(

He also said if I thought he had problems then perhaps we just 'see things differently', because 'he is fine.'

One thing that sticks out with what you have said was when you asked if he sees this as normal. The short answer is yes he does. It was his normal. It was what he knew and knows. He hasn't lived any other way.
You talk about the decision making. I totally see how frustrating it is my exh is the same. His mother is loud, over bearing and uses emotional black mail to get her own way. Exh and sil are totally incapable of makingn any of their own decisions. Liken it to teaching a child to use cutlery. You can give it to them as small toddlers, they can make a mess but learn to manipulate it and get food into their mouth.
Spoon feed the same child until they are 7 and then suddenly hand them cutlery. They make make less mess than the toddler but still need o learnt the skills to cut food, pick it up and put it in their mouth.

Your dp is the same with decisions. He has never been given the tools to do it. He has had his self esteem eroded his whole life and never been allowed to make a decision for himself. He lacks the confidence and thought processes to make a decision. He possibly worries about getting it wrong because as far as he is concerned he has never got it right.
He loves his parents because they are his parents. They and his childhood are his normal so he doesn't see that it was wrong and abusive. It is like someone else's child. They may be a horror that you cannot stand to be in the same room as while you are asking yourself how the doting parents cannot see what a monster they have created.

I think you are hoping he will have more insight than he actually does, and seem to be pushing him and psyxhoanalysing him, when that's not what he does.
Of course his childhood has massively affected his adult self, but as a pp said, that is his normal.

Sorry I don't think my previous post was very helpful. I have issues from childhood. I try to address them and think about how they affect my relationships with partner and children. My partner also has issues. He doesn't really think about them or address the impact they have had on his relationships with partner and children... He's 49 and has just moved back into his mums and refuses to see that it isn't 'normal' at his life stage to do that. (He's not her cater or anything). Some people will not address issues from their childhood, or can't be forced to anyway.

lauren I think that you have to accept him just as he is.

In the future, two options: either he will always stay like this. Or he may begin to realise something is wrong ... from all you have said, this might happen or it might not. If he does, I am near to sure it will take a very long time. At a guess he does know something is wrong deep down because his reaction is so strong. If he genuinely was at peace with the way things are, he wouldn't start suggesting you think he has a mental problem and wouldn't start shouting so much.

But a very defensive man can go two ways; it can crack open, slowly or suddenly. Or he can stay defensive ... forever.

Whatever happens, you cannot be his therapist. His friend yes, but not his therapist.

Lioninthesun - did you honestly not think your reltatinship with your mother had affected you? Did anyone ever insinuate that it may have done, and if so what was your reaction? Why did you idolise her and what made you change your mind? (If you don't mind me asking).
I was actually very lucky in that my family put me into boarding school when I was 6 (neither of them could look after me and my grandparents paid so I wouldn't have to go into social services). I knew I was different then, but just in an "I don't fit in here" kind of way - I remember one matron gave us Care Bear pins and gave me the blue one with the cloud on the tummy because "you always seem so serious, it suited you best" which made me feel different even at 6. I had impeccable manners (strict mum) but no clue on how to 'get on' with people. Boarding school slowly taught me those skills and I have some friends who are more like sisters as a result. However, I still didn't tell them much, if anything, of what was happening at weekends at home. I suppose I didn't want to be odd or different but actually I remember not realising fully that mum was an alcoholic until I was about 11 and stayed a weekend with a friend and her family. I realised her mum didn't change when it got to 5/6ish in the evenings into someone you had to fear and be very careful around. It seems every year from then on I unpicked a little more. However you must realise I had distance from the situation and stable friends at the time. Even without talking about the details and sustained EA they could tell something wasn't quite right (once she rang saying she was on Warfrin and was going to kill herself if she slipped chopping veg as she would bleed to death - that made me cry but I still only told one person the next morning as I wanted to use the phone to check she was still alive - she couldn't even remember calling and I got into trouble for sneaking to the phones). She threw me out in the snow on Christmas Eve when I was 14 because I tried to defend my dead aunt and I think I realised then that I was defending her behaviour too much as I refused to see her or call her for 6 months. When I did she didn't apologise but we just never spoke of it again.
When I was in hospital (for the attempted suicide) she called up and said she had given all of the family heirlooms to the gardener, and I think I started to actually get angry with her at that point. I was 22 at the time.
Just please don't push it. I love/loved my mum despite all of her ways and although I know what she did was wrong, she also had some amazing things to share and contribute. You can't tar someone as 'evil', especially someone's parent, without coming across as narrow-minded. Your posts actually remind me of the first counsellor I had after mum died. I had been very honest about my mother and she actually said on our 2nd appointment "Your mother was clearly a snob and I don't know why you listened to anything she said" ! I cried and never went back. It made me angry and defensive and I still wonder if she is still in work as it really felt very unprofessional. I don't mean that what you are saying to him is so brutal, but to him if no one has challenged this before it may well feel that way.

Actually my therapist said that my idolisation of my mum was partly because she made me hold her in such high regard by putting me down constantly. I would never be as interesting, clever, well read, socially adept, inspirational, original as she was - at 20 she was still checking I had closed the fridge door correctly. She would comment on my weight and clothes and say she would never have worn that or that I had no style... It's the constant chipping away and belittling of everything you do or say that makes you feel inferior. She was actually very talented and had an amazing life, but she was just a human being after all.

I'll check in again later but there are a few threads about narcissism on MN that may help - I think my mum and possibly your partner's mum are in that spectrum. I am just very aware that although you think you are helping you may end up pushing him away by trying to unpick his life. If he doesn't want help you can't make him. He may be realising there is a problem but he needs space and professional help to actually get to the bottom of it in a conducive way. Please don't try to do the work of a professional on someone who isn't ready.

"I personally havent had experience of childhood affecting anyone as an adult"

You absolutely do, because everyone in the world's childhood affects them as an adult. And believe me, unless you've only ever met about five people, and you're a statistical anomaly, you've met people who've had events in their childhood that affected them negatively. In fact, I'd almost be prepared to guarantee that there are a couple of things about your upbringing that have maybe left you with something less than perfect.

Anyway - yep, some things about his childhood don't sound great. But what really matters is how he's dealing with those things now. And while exploring childhood can be helpful for, say, a therapist, or for you to understand further what's going on with him, I don't actually think it does much good for a relationship to have the idea of 'childhood fucked me/you up' looming over everything.

I had some pretty shitty times as a kid. Not vastly dissimilar to lioninthesun. DH finds some of my innate ways of being a bit strange, as he was raised in a very stable household - but then, I find some of his habits a bit strange too! It's up to me and him to work out problems on a case by case basis. Obviously DH can support me, and it's good for him to know things - but I also think there can often be way too much focus on someone's childhood as a source of adult problems. Obviously sometimes there ARE issues, so I don't want to belittle that, but in general, I have a lot of faith in kids ability to recognise, even subconsciously, dynamics that are harmful, and bounce back from them to become perfectly decent adults.

Basically, I think that it has to be on him. You can definitely try to be understanding about elements of his upbringing that may make him behave in ways you find odd or difficult, but this is still your relationship, and you have the right to expect him to meet you halfway. And if he doesn't, then that's on him, not his mother or his childhood. He has to want to fix things, and to be with you. It's not something you can force.

Shit, sorry this is so long!

Up to the part where the parents divorce, that could have been my childhood.

I think I'm a fairly stable adult but in younger days I think I was very insecure. And I hide it well now but inside I'm not too confident but am able to be quite logical about it so it doesn't affect my day to day life. Any arguments I have with people tend to make me very anxious and I hate confrontation (so much so I left a job so I didn't have to confront a bully) and I will back down In order to have peace restored.

It has had a MASSIVE effect on the way I parent and I have gone all out to ensure my three kids haven't witnessed anything like what went on in my childhood. I'm a much better parent than my parents.