Intimacy - reading the signals - always being ready

[jack45132]

Ok - so this is man posting - looking to learn. In v. long term relationship, with two lovely young children, and OH that I still find more attractive than ever.

If it was up to me, we would be spending more time together, kisses, cuddles, and yes sex - which makes me feel accepted and closer to her.

She would probably say she is very tired most of the time, and doesn't always feel comfortable in herself. She would probably also say that when we do have intimacy, she's feels happier.

The problem I am struggling with is getting a balance between initiating cuddles, massages, and sex versus being seen as pressurising. It is also emotionally and physically frustrating to go to bed every night 'on standby' hoping for closeness. After months of this it's then so easy to deal by switching off, and not trying. The worst outcome for me is not suggesting or going for a hug, because of wanting to look casual, and not pressurise WHILE all along this happens to be a night when she actually wants me to initiate..what a tragedy, it's a short life....

Stereotypical posts seem to be; posts where women complain their OH go nowhere near them anymore, and other posts where men complain of a lack of intimacy.

It's seems like an age old problem....bit sad really

Humble - Have I? Goodness
Erm, yes, you appear to be either reading a different thread or completely pre-judging the op (because he's a man with the audacity to post on MN?). A direct quote from your post yesterday:
what's blatantly clear is that the OP wants his urges attended to no matter how exhausted his wife is, and instead of making her life right so she's free to want sex, he prefers to whinge about it.
That's a pretty poor personal attack, and not the gist I (and lots of others) am getting from the OP's posts.
He's here for help, not slagging off.

Frank, a lot of people are tired all the time, and if children and the additional domestic work and emotional work they entail are added to an already full life, then that's not a surprise, is it?

Besides, no one on MN made that up about this thread - the OP's wife has said it herself and because he has said little else about her point of view, answers are being based in part on that.

The reason housework always comes up, is because it's one of the most common reasons for the combination of utter exhaustion and low-level resentment that leads to so many women being totally uninterested in sex.

It may or may not be a factor here (the OP hasn't been clear about it actually, he's been a bit slippery about whether he does his fair share - he's mentioned helping his DW with something unspecified, implying that she's got responsibilities he hasn't) but whether or not it is relevant here, it's absolutely valid to suggest it as one thing to look at, simply because it's such a common thing. If you look at the obvious, common things first, you're more likely to hit upon the problem sooner.

Also all those people saying he should go to the gym and get some new clothes - is his DW going to be doing that too? Any new activity or expenditure is going to impact on time and money spent on family so depending on how his family is organised, needs to be negotiated, just like everything else in a shared domestic environment.

housework always comes up because if you are 'expected' to do all the housework (eg if it doesn't get done otherwise) as well as looking after kids' every physical and emotional need, sex can feel like one more physical need to meet and not something you want to do.

It's not a war. I think people are just being honest about how they feel and trying to give the op stone insight into that. whether the op takes that on board is up to him.

I heard recently (forgotten where) that happiness comes from someone choosing to do something and then doing it. With small kids there is all sorts of stuff which takes up so much time that you haven't chosen to do and isn't fun or rewarding particularly. Maybe giving somebody the space to choose what she wants to do might eventually include sex once other needs like sleep and ooh, I dunno, reading more than a paragraph of a book before something else drudgy and boring is required of you

I agree with kitty about dropping the massage stuff. If someone has a sore neck or something it's probably a nice practical thing to do, but I don't think it's a good way to initiate sex if that's what's happening. Others will disagree but I think massages , and especially rubbing feet , can subconsciously be perceived as a subservient thing to do particularly once sex becomes an issue.

I think the trouble is that men are told that in order to achieve good intimacy you should do lots of housework , bring flowers ,do massages , be romantic , light candles rub feet ect. Women are told they should find these things attractive and then everyone is upset when it doesn't work. If you think about steamy scenes on tv there isn't a candle in sight. If you read women's erotica there are no massages or foot rubbing. In fact it's quite the opposite.

Your wife probably has similar thoughts and fantasys just as you do. They probably don't involve romantic walks on beaches or being sprinkled with rose petals. They won't involve a tentative approach or someone being shy.
The tired thing . Lots of people do the tired thing. If this was the issue the simple answer would be going to bed earlier , or enjoying each other in the morning. When people persistently claim they are too tired what they are really saying is I'm not attracted to you.

I don't think you should discuss this again with her. You will not ever successfully talk someone into being attracted to you. Whether she is attracted or not isn't her choice, she has no control over it. Instead work on your confidence and in particular the shyness. It's a hard thing to do particularly once you've been subjected to repeated rejections. Think of a confident man and do what he would do. Fake it. It won't happen overnight but you'll get there.

Tiredness is just a brush off excuse... My brother is currently refusing sex with his long term girlfriend, she has no idea why and it's causing all kinds of problems, we've talked about it at length, but he refuses to communicate the real reasons...

Some of the reasons may not even be related to the husband/boyfriend at all and may be a sub conscious reaction to something happening in her life or something that has happened in her or their lives in the past..

If people are tired they need to rearrange their time schedules so they can make time for one another and time for themselves.. Life is for living and enjoying, we're all responsible for our own lives and how we manage our own expectations and feelings..

That's a pretty poor personal attack, and not the gist I (and lots of others) am getting from the OP's posts. He's here for help, not slagging off
A personal attack would be for example "You lazy sex fiend butt out of that woman's life". Nothing of the kind has been suggested. I merely gave him advice which if he acted upon, would have a positive effect, assuming he's telling us the whole story and there is no major reason why his wife is avoiding his attentions.

I really want to clarify that my post, about watching mothers with small children, wasn't intended to convey a 'do more childcare' message - although a man who "helps with" or "babysits" his children is treating his partner like staff and probably needs to raise his game.

I was trying to illustrate the enormous emotional & tactile swamp in which young children envelop their full-time parent. Small children ARE needy - very! - and meeting their needs is essential to their development. So an adult partner, who turns up with similar emotional & tactile needs, is just one more demand on the parent's already exhausted emotional fund. Adults aren't children, requiring endless nurture. Adults behave like adults - they pick up the load without question, because their children are theirs too, and they give their adult partner adult support. They converse with their partner like a grown-up, respect their views and ideas, entertain them, and generally reinforce their identity as an individual.

It's a rare woman that wants sex with a man who feels like yet another needy child.

"If people are tired they need to rearrange their time schedules so they can make time for one another and time for themselves"

Who on here is disagreeing with that, frank? But when you have kids, then the rearranging has to include them, whether it's one spouse staying in whilst the other goes to the gym or getting babysitters or waiting till the kids are settled.

Actually, that's a good question, OP - do you ever take a day off work together when the kids are at school or day care to spend some time together? Or send the kids on a play date on a weekend morning? So that doing something together (a meal, a walk etc) is the first thing you do in the day, not the last after work, kids, chores have had their fill?

Kids are a natural welcome edition to our life, they aren't the end of the relationship with the other person and neither are chores/tasks, I often wonder reading this part of the forum if most of the posters moaning about housework, live in huge castles that need endless attention...

BB123 has given specific spot on advice which ties in with the advice given in books/counselling on this subject matter..

Of course children aren't the end of the relationship with the other person and neither are chores/tasks, frank. What the hell are you on about?

So just what is the point your trying to make Garlic, that children/chores/work are so emotionally and physically tiring that the intimacy aspect of the relationship has to take a back seat... If so I don't agree.. That's what I'm on about...

I do think children and housework can affect intimacy but not because it's so exhausting that people can't stay awake. I think it's because once people have children they often see themselves differently along with their partners and it becomes all about the children and now your just mum and dad. I think a loss of intimacy is common in child focused marriages.

It could be selective memory but I'm sure I had a lot more time in the evenings when my children were young. They were in bed for eight and besides illness that was usually the end of it. Now I've got young adults who need picking up from such a place , who work shifts , have friends over and sometimes stay up later than me. There's not much privacy at all .

No, frank, I'm saying an adult who spends her entire day with emotionally demanding children needs her adult partner to act like a responsible grown-up and threat her as one. I'm sorry you have difficulty comprehending written text.

*treat

Where in the op's post does he sound like he's not acting like a grown up.. I knew what you were trying to say, and it's not very helpful really is it...

What they need to do is find a safe way to talk about issues that they are both obviously avoiding, sometimes people think these problems are insurmountable, they also need to analyse their own roles and behaviour regarding the problems.. Honesty, mindfulness and communication....

Nearly all the replies including your own, frank, have been about being a grown-up and respecting his partner as a separate, grown-up individual. People have different ideas on how to do that, and different ways of expressing them. This is normally considered an advantage to posting on a forum. It doesn't make sense to (ineffectively) try and shred my replies on some spurious semantic basis of your own device, but go ahead if you're that short of something to do.

It doesn't look as if OP's still here, but some other reader with similar issues will come along and read the thread. They'll probably appreciate all these different takes on what amounts to the same advice.

It's not advantageous for people to start suggesting he do more washing up and ironing or the kids, yes that may be a part of it... Although tbh they get mentioned quite a lot regarding other issues too..

But in all the counselling books and the sessions I've had, most focus on childhood and mindfulness and communication and how to separate feelings and how we act on these on a conscious and sub conscious level, lots of people aren't even aware of this, hence the sometimes very poor and frankly down right antagonistic advice given out on this forum and in real life at times..

We had the same problem. I told DH that I wanted him to touch me, with affection, without making me feel like a piece of meat. I also said that I needed affection without the expectation of sex, and told DH that he was more likely to have sex without the pressure.

The result was, he was more affectionate, as in, hugs, kisses, compliments, without pressurisation, and I became more willing to initiate sex as a result.

Sorry - been away from this for a while. Many thanks for people taking the time to reply. My aim of the post was to share intelligent insights between the sexes as well as get some suggestions for my personal situation. If I'm anonymous then I would hope people would feel that I have no agenda other than being 100% honest with my postings - the truth can set you free so they say.

For those that have taken the time to properly read my posts (as opposed to the half-baked knee jerking) I thank you. As ever in life the best solutions are just to calmly share how you feel, and how you would like things to be, and find a way of dealing with your own sense of frustrations with a degree of humour in the meanwhile.

I absolutely can see how most men eventually emotionally switch off as means of coping, 5 years pass, and the women are on MN posting "my husband shows no interest in me" - only one post discussed this link. For every MAMIL cycling around the countryside think 'starved of intimacy, working off frustrations'

I get the 'massages' can seem creepy feedback, honestly. I would describe myself as socially confident, especially with women, and definitely someone anyone who meet me would associate with 'creepy'

I get GarlicGiftsAndGlitter comments on the overwhelming demands of young children. I get the possibility that a partner also asking 'for attention' can be just more of the same. Try and also think of the possibility that there are men out there that have enough emotional intelligence and empathy to be acutely aware of this.

make that 'definitely someone anyone who met me would NOT associate with 'creepy' ... :)

So how old are your DC, is your partner a SAHM and do you contribute to 50% of dc/household stuff when you are there?

The answer to these questions will probably give a good idea of where the issues are, or are not, but I can't see where you have answered them.

OhBuggeringBollocks - You've joined the party a little late. See previous posts....sigh

I have read the thread and genuinely couldn't see where you'd answered those specific questions. I've seen woolly answers about people doing more some years than others, and you working equally hard but nothing responding directly to what I asked.

Maybe you should read people's posts properly...sigh.

Although being snippy with someone who is trying to help may tell you that you aren't communicating yourself as well a you might at home.

In my opinion kids can be hellish soul sucking minions of Satan. They want and need and need. It is constant and never ending until they sleep. And that is on the good days without the snotty noses or banged knees!

Then to have someone else want a little piece of you can just be too damn much there is nothing else in there to give.

Even letting someone have enough of your time and attention to do something nice for you like a massage is just too much.

Run her a bath. Give her a hug and send her in there with a book, then off to snore/veg for the evending and that you will deal if the kids wake or anything and just space is the best thing.