What would you do if you thought your dp was an alcoholic?

[merrygoround]

Three weeks ago I asked my dp to leave, at the time because he was getting more and more nasty to me (in non-violent ways) and I was feeling at breaking point and needed some space. Also the atmosphere was not one I wanted dd (2 yrs) exposed to any longer, as I felt so drained from arguments and resentment that I knew I was not able to be the mum I want to be.

Anyway, it was a nightmare, but as each day passed after he eventually left a week later I began to see things about our whole relationship that I'd never realised before- denial, I believe they call it... to the point where I came to the conclusion that behind many of the problems was his drinking habit.

To cut a long story short I am now almost 100% convinced that he is an alcoholic - dependent on drink in an out of control way. But there is maybe 1% of me that wonders if I am over-reacting, and I wondered if anyone here has had any experience that may help me to cope. I have been to one Al Anon meeting, which despite its use of Higher Powers (a bit alien to me) I found really helpful, but I can't get to meetings very often and feel like I really want information from others who have been / are in similar situations.

My soon to be xh was a very big drinker and this is why our marriage broke up. Sometime after I chucked him out, I went to the garage to get something and the door shut behind me and there stacked neatly against the wall were about 50 cans of premium lager (some full, most empty). It just confirmed my suspicions, but I never had the energy to confront him about it and I know that he still does drink .

Do you know if he is getting help? Do you think he thinks he has a problem? It is alot easier to get help these days - besides AA - just put in "alcohol abuse" in the search engine and see what comes up.

If going to AA helped you, then try and get along whenever you can. I am sure there are MNetters who are better placed to give you advice, but I can arrange to send you some leaflets if you need me to - just let me know.

Take care and try not let it stress you. X

Thanks Chocol8 - the biggest issue for me is that dp insists that he does not have a problem. He will admit that he drinks more than he should (he is 38 and his GP told him recently that he ought to stop or cut right down), but he does not accept that he is an addict. He has never hidden how much he drinks, and I have tried to accept it. On average I guess he puts away 6 pints a night, but double that at the weekend.

It was his behaviour that eventually led me to ask him to go, but even when it was really bad I still didn't connect it with his drinking. Recently a friend whose father was an alcoholic laughed at me (in a nice way) when I told her that dp was always "tired" on weekend afternoons after a session in the pub - and would normally either sleep straight away or be horribly ratty -she said that tired was a euphamism for drunk. But I'd never thought of it that way until she said it. Now it seems so clear that I can't believe how blind I've been.

I have laid down one absolute rule (which I should have done a long time ago, but again was so in denial myself that I didn't do it) which is that he will not care take our daughter if he has had more than 2 pints. At first he was outraged but I think he is starting to accept this. I pointed out that he would never let someone over the legal limit to drive look after her, so why should it be any different for him.

His drinking has filled his life so much that there has been hardly any room for me. He has not had an affair with a woman, but I have frequently felt desperately hurt that he chose over and over to go out to the pub rather than spend time with me. On a normal weekday he would make 3 separate visits to the pub. There were days when I could have screamed my head off to beg him not to go, as the sound of the door closing upset me so much.

At least now I don't have to endure the daily torture. But I am faced with the realisation that I have invested 8 years with a man who is not capable of making the effort required to have a healthy relationship. Whether I look at his drinking as something he freely chooses, or something that he has no control over (ie that he is "ill", as the AA approach says), the fact is that he is not there for me. I can live with that, and move on, but I do wonder what his relationship our dd is going to be like.

Thanks again for your post.

MGR, I just wanted to send you my love and sympathy; and to say there are a couple of other alcoholism threads on here at the moment.

I have lived with two men who, in retrospect, I realise had serious booze problems. And I totally identify with that feeling of "it's not another woman, but it is the pub". I spent night after night longing for my then partner (whom I loved madly) to come in through the door, not go straight to the pub from work and make it home at 10.30 plus. It's only now, about 10 years after he left me, that I can really look at his drinking and think "bloody hell, mate, you do have a problem, don't you".

Please don't feel you've invested and lost. You have a beautiful daughter. And sure, you loved someone who couldn't love you back the way you deserved. I am sorry. But please don't reproach yourself. Hugs.
xxxx

Thanks motherinferior- Funnily enough I searched mumsnet for hours one night trying to find other threads on alcholism but came up with nothing. I will definitely check out the other ones now.

I think I am going to turn into a mad anti drinker soon. This experience has made me hate it so much (excluding my glass or two of wine of course!) It is something about the way that alcohol is so socially acceptable and yet can do so much harm.

I do feel sorry for dp in some ways. His own dad is a drinker, and spent a lot of time in the pub. Ironically my dp (ex?) cannot stand his dad and has not talked him for 10 years apart from the most cursory hello. It did occur to me some years ago that the reason dp had to blank his dad out was that he was too much like him.

You are right to point out that my dd is a very precious result of my investment. I shan't forget that.

merrygoround you dp's behaviour sound to me very much like that of an alcoholic who is not yet ready to face his problems. You said - "Whether I look at his drinking as something he freely chooses, or something that he has no control over (ie that he is "ill", as the AA approach says)" but actually, although AA does regard alcoholism as a disease, it also says that you can take control of the disease so that it does not destroy your life, so it is the drinker's responsibility to change, not to be excused "because they can't help it". AA also say that no one can be forced to quit drinking, it has to come from themselves.

It sounds to me like you have done the right thing. Keep going with Al-Anon if you find it helpful and look to make a secure and happy life for you and your dd. If your dp eventually faces up to his problems then perhaps he will be able to build a good relationship with your dd, but right now, a man who would rather be at the pub than with his family is not going to be much of a father whether he lives with you or not.

thank you for your post Wilbur. It is unbelievably helpful to me to hear from other people. What you said about alcoholism being a disease that a person can take control of is a good point. At Al Anon I got a leaflet that explains how alcholism is a merrygoround where people keep it going unwittingly by their reactions to the drinker. What I am doing is to try and get off the merrygoround (by living without him), to give myself back a better life, and in the faint hope that if he can see what he has lost at least he may decide to make a choice to change things. The way it was, where he basically had everything he wanted, was never going to make him realise anything. But I know that his anger and self pity may make him blame me all the more.

What you said about him not being much of a father made me kind of gasp, but I do agree with you. He likes to believe that he is a good dad - I once suggested that by treating me so badly he was not being a good dad, and he never let me forget it. He cannot stand criticism as a father - but it is yet another element of the denial.

I am so glad I finally asked him to leave. It was often like living with a rude and lazy hotel guest, not a partner.

I'm sorry if my last line was a bit harsh, I didn't mean to upset you. I think you are very brave and I totally understand all your worries and feel deeply for you. I also hope that you wil be able to rise above his anger. However, the fact is that heavy drinking can be a terribly burden on those with whom the drinker lives (grammar!) and I just wanted to express that his insistence that this kind of drinking (12 pints a night at the weekend? please!) means he can still lead a good life by his family is wrong. He cannot drink that much, be "tired" every weekend afternoon, and also do all the things we would want a father to do for his children. The other thing I would say is that although I understand and applaud your hope that he will clean up his act because of the shock of losing you, please be very careful about considering a relationship with him again until you have seen that he has stopped drinking, that the pub is no longer his favourite place, and that he has got his life together and is in some kind of program to help his addiction. All the very best of luck and keep posting. xx

Hi Merrygoround,
I was married to an alcoholic for 4yrs and left him 14yrs ago. I went to Al-anon meetings after splitting up as I needed to understand and hear from others who understood what I had been iving with. All our families and friends had just thought that he 'liked a drink', and were in more denial than I was over his drinking. Al-anon was brilliant for my needs at the time, but I would say to be careful of indirectly blaming yourself for your ex's drinking ie by saying that you are unwittingly keeping his drinking going by your reaction to it. An addict - be it a drug or drink addict - is masterful at blaming others without any sort of 'official' endorsement of that.
The bottom line is that you should not blame yourself for his drinking, and you cannot change him by gaining more perspective yourself. Seek information for your own understanding and therapy - but don't con yourself into thinking it will somehow change him.
As I said in another recent post re. alcoholism, I would not be the person I am now had I stayed with my ex, and my children would not be the well-adjusted, happy, normal young adults they are had they remained living in an alcoholic household.

I am so touched by these messages, and really taking note. I logged on because I can feel my head is pounding with confusion about what I am doing and what I should say to dp. He left two weeks ago, and I have said that (as long as he has not had more than 2 pints) he can have as much reasonable access to our dd as possible. I don't want to take her away from him. So he has continued to do what he did before which is pick her up from nursery on her three days and bring her back to my home to give her tea.

Today is not a nursery day so he dropped off some shopping at 4pm, and then said he was going for two pints and could he come back later. I couldn't help asking why he didn't stay instead of going to the pub - he said that at least he was cutting down which had to be good. I asked if he was not going to go back to the pub later, and he said yes, but "only for another couple". I asked why and he said because he wasn't used to living on his own and had nothing else to do (but when he lived with me he did exactly the same, only more). I asked if he could not hear himself and see that he was just making excuses, and he was non commital.

Anyway, after an hour he came back and is still here, I have no reason to think he's had any more than 2 pints, and he has not tried to have a can either. I asked if he was staying to do dds bath, and he said he would see how things went, as he is very tired. He has told me he is not sleeping (he's always been a bad sleeper, drink related I'm sure), and has to get up early for work. But this is exactly the same situation as I was in before he left - he will leave us to go to the pub, despite being so tired. I just don't get it. I have been trying to keep quiet, and leave him now to make his own choices, but I am still getting wound up.

If this makes sense to anyone would you please try and help me see it? Those of you with experience, did you confront your ex's directly with their drinking, or is it a waste of time to try and reason?

briefly on line - hugs, not sure what to recommend (I didn't really recognise or confront it, and I don't think my ex drank as much as yours - although who am I kidding?), but hugs all the same
xx

There is no need to make definate rules or plans for dd's care. Just trust your instincts and take it as it evolves.If you are not happy with handing her over to him then don't - no rationalisation and excuses are needed. If he is dependant on alcohol then he WILL keep drinking and he will NOT be able to control his drinking however much he would like to. I suspect that you have been so used to taking control of situations that you are finding it stressful and hard to let go of his life now that he is no longer living with you. He has probably been very dependant on you too and it is very hard isn't it to see him out there alone?
Talking to him about his drinking does not have to be in a confrontational manner, but denial on his part or acceptance and acknowledgement will not change anything on it's own.
When I split from my dh we were apart for 9mths before trying again. When we were apart he went to AA and became like a born again Christian. I fell in love with him all over again. But within 3mths of being back together he was back to his old ways and left again after choosing the pub over us.
This all sounds a bit rambly I know, as I have to just write as I think. Please keep posting, if I can be of any help at all then I'll be happy to keep rambling.

I think goosey has made some very good points, particularly about the anxiety you feel about him being on his own. It is very early days but I do really believe you are doing the best thing, long term for yourself and your dd. The questions you asked him about why he was going to the pub sound like exactly the kind of questions he should be asking himself. I hope one day that he will consider the points you made and come to a decision to quit. Also, I should say that my experience of this kind of thing is not of an alcoholic partner, but there were and are alcoholics in my immediate family and I grew up with the culture of drinking.

Goosey, what you said gave me a jolt - I wondered if you knew me personally it was so accurate! Yes, I have been used to being in control, yes it is hard to think of him out there on his own, and yes, he was very dependant on me. I always got the blame for making decisions, and being the one "in charge", but if a decision was needed he always told me to make it. One of the things that is driving me nuts now is that he has said quite a few times that he will give up drinking if that is what I want, or if that is what is needed for him to keep his family. And yet he still got really pissed over the Easter break, to the point where he was in no fit state to be anywhere near dd. He almost begs me to tell him what to do, but when I met him practically the first thing he ever told me was that he could not stand being told what to do. Before I asked him to leave I had told him that the only alternative I could see was counselling. I offered to go to couple counselling, but to my surprise he volunteered to go for individual counselling. But when it came to putting that into action he read me something from a leaflet he'd got which said that counselling should always be freely chosen, and if not it would not work. When I said that I thought he had chosen it, he told me that he was only doing it to be a "good boy", and that he was more or less forced into it because the alternative was separation. It was actually at that point, combined with him telling me that I provoked his bad behaviour, that I gave up on the idea of remaining living together and trying to sort things out (and as I said earlier, at that point I still hadn't recognised the role of drink in the relationship problems).

Goosey I also think what you said about not making fixed rules about access to dd and trusting my judgement is right for now. I find I really want to lecture him on what a father's role should be in a family - trying to stop him hurting dd I suppose, but know I must back off. I liked the suggestion that talking about drinking doesn't have to be confrontational (although not sure I could manage it....). I find that I often assume a role of a pseudo counsellor with him, and want to avoid that.

Thanks dogwalker too for your posts. It is nice to know that there are some positive outcomes with drinking. It does reinforce the fact that the drinker needs to see the problem before change will happen.

It is early days and I don't want to prejudge what will happen, but do want to keep my wits about me.

merrygoround, you are a strong and intelligent person and you need a giant hug for managing all this on your own. I know what you mean when you talk about your dd and wanting to protect her from physical and emotional harm. When they are drunk it is a real concern that they may harm themselves let alone anyone else, and the emotional pressure of living with someone who is dependant on alcohol is immense and affects everyone in the household - even when they are not drunk. You really do understand this and you ARE protecting your dd by everything you are doing -including posting for other's experiences on here.
I have always told my children that their dad loves them and that he is a good kind person.Because he does, and he is. But through the grip of alcoholism you would never believe it by his actions - or lack of actions. I explained his alcoholism when they were small by saying that he needed to drink alcohol in the same way that when they are very thirsty they need to drink ie that it is a physical craving which although he knows in his head won't kill him is impossible for him to resist. He lives 200 miles away now and I always took the children to stay with him and picked them up again when they were little. Many drink-related episodes occured when he had them and eventually I stopped them staying overnight with him. He would always rely on me for everything when we were married, and would always blame anything but himself for his failings.
I think your man knows what a father's responsibilities are already but is powerless to overcome his addiction to actually be that good father he most probably wishes more than anything in the world he could be.
There are those who hit rock bottom - sometimes a good deal more than once - and do go on to manage to stay sober for years. Bloody fantastic of them to manage that. But many many more find that alcoholism cruelly wrecks their lives forever.
I wasn't prepared to risk my kids lives and I am so so glad of that.

Hi again Merrygoround, I had a read through all the replies and I suppose in a weird way, it is - not sure it's the right word to use, but - comforting to know there are other people out there who have been there and done that and can give you first hand advice and support. Sadly you are not alone, as alcohol (as you said - is so socially acceptable and yet can do so much harm). It is a legal drug and there in lies the problem.

Two questions, if I may ask: which county do you live in? and what job does your dp do? I ask because I know if you are in Bedfordshire, there is an excellent facility available to dp and you -which is not AA, and secondly, if your dp is in a job where he has to drive or operate machinery, it is an added danger to himself and others and if he injures someone, he could be prosecuted for being over the limit.

Roughly speaking, if is drinking 12 pints at the weekend, he would be imbibing (if premium lager): 36 units. With each unit taking an hour to be processed by the body, he could still easily be pulled for drink driving the next day as it will still be in his blood. If he is then drinking 2 more pints the next day before he comes to see your dd, he is really in no fit state to drive himself, never mind anyone else! None for the road is the general rule, as even a small amount of alcohol can impair your judgement - and braking times.

Considering that the current daily guidelines for sensible drinking is 3-4 units a day for males (with 2 clear days a week), it does appear he has a serious problem.

I remember when my h used to wander round to the corner shop (after me persuading him many times that he shouldn't drive) to get more lager. My first instinct was to lock the doors and not let him in, or to just do a runner with my ds who was only young then. However, I knew damn well that if I had locked the doors he would have put his hand through the glass to get in and then of course, I would feel guilty that he'd have hurt himself. There is no answer until he takes his problem seriously, but I like you and so many others know instinctively when you know you do not, and should not take any more of this bad behaviour.

Good luck and keep your chin up. x

Hi Honey

My dp is an alcoholic. I am lucky because he accepts this and goes to regular meetings and is therefore in recovery but we have had very bad times and I truly sympathise with you.

The best advice I can give you is try and get back to al-anon and go as often as you can. It can be a little daunting to start with but it really works if you stick with it.

It has no magical answers but will help you learn to cope and although there is absolutley NOTHING you can do to stop your dp from drinking, or getting him to see his porblem if he's in denial (belive me, I've tried...hiding his shoes, shouting, getting him arrested, locking him out and in, cutting up his cash cards)or getting him to see his problem if he's in denial There comes a stage where you have to put yourslef and your kids first. Alcoholics have this knack of getting the world to revolve around them and it shouldn't...it should revolve around you.

It needn't mean breaking up if you really don't want to. You should read about "enabling" and "touch love" and from experience, it helps you to deal with things with a lot clearer head.

Maybe getting yourself to meetings will set a good example for your dp...?

If you are finding it really difficult to get to meetings there is a site that does online chat meetings www.12stepforums.net/chatroom2.html
and there is a great book called "one day at a time" by al-anon which you may find helpful.
Please feel free to email me if you wish.
Hope this hasn't come across too bossy, I don't mean to be.

Thinking of you...stay strong!

Jo & Molly xxx

Urg sorry..I meant TOUGH love
J x

Goosey

My dd is 3 months old and too young to understand but I think what you said to your kids was brillaint. Any more advice on how to explain this sort of situation to the little ones?

J x

thank you everyone again. Babybearandmolly I saw your thread a couple of days ago but to be honest was so overwhelmed by how difficult things seemed for you that I could not think of what to say. I was going to go back to it today and at least make an attempt at giving you suppport. I will look in later.

Thanks very much for the online chat reference. It is difficult to get to meetings, and although I can phone someone from the group I don't feel like I want to overdo that.

Chocol8, DP does have a driving job, and it has begun to worry me too about whether the alcohol is still in his system were he to be tested. His job is crucial to his sense of self esteem (which I know is not high) and I tried pointing out that over the next 10 years if he does not change his lifestyle he will very likely find himself unable to keep working - and that's without being done for drink driving. We live in London btw, and when I get a bit more time I will follow your earlier suggestion and search the internet to find out what services are around. And yes, it is sadly reassuring to know that others have been through this. When I met dp (in a pub....) and soon found out that he was a "big drinker" I was actually a bit ashamed of him. Of course that made me feel guilty so perhaps I overcompensated by going into denial. Drinking just was not in my family and I associated it with being a bit out of control and seedy.

Goosey, thank you for telling me how you handled your ex's relationship with his children. I do not want to poison dd against him in any way, and at only 2 she has limited understanding. But I know they catch on pretty quick so it is important to me to be thinking ahead. I am not sure if dp does have any real idea of what a good father is. If your own dad was not much cop perhaps you are more limited in your ability even to imagine what a good father would be like? I think dp compares himself with his dad and reckons he is "better". His own dad didn't work, and dp makes a huge thing of having a responsible job (he is an engineer).

Thanks again for the support, and the hugs over the internet. Until I Posted and saw these replies I felt a lot more alone. Today I am going with dd and a girlfriend to see Sleeping Beauty on Ice - which will be an experience! I have more energy now I live alone to make exciting plans. I do feel sad, and can't help wondering if I'll ever have a good relationship again (even if with dp), but of course dd comes first and keeps me from losing the plot.

Hi merrygoround

I was in a relationship with an alcoholic for 3 years - I was in denial about it for about 18 months and he probably still is! Thankfully, we weren't married and didn't have children. If your husband is drinking 6 pints a night and double that at the weekend, then he's well over whats safe and healthy for him. It sounds as though the pub has become a habit; he's obviously not going there to socialise, but going there for a 'fix' - I don't mean to sound harsh, but the way you describe his habits sounds just like my ex.

Basically, I would say that you need to concentrate on you and your child - you sound very strong and sussed about whats going on, and you need to keep making yourself and your child the first priority. Yes, he obviously has problems that are causing the drinking, but only he can sort them out; one thing I learnt from my relationship with my ex, is that no matter how much you encourage your husband to stop drinking, only he will do it, if he wants to and let's face it, he has plenty to give it up for.

Be strong, I know how totally alone you can feel with an alcoholic partner, but you are obviously on the path to happiness!!

Hello mushroom.

The pub is the focus of dp's life. It is a really nice pub, and I even go there myself occasionally. It is like the pub in Cheers, and I think that dp loves the fact that "everyone knows his name". He even has his own special glass for goodness sake. I have found it a source of confusion. Through dp and his drinking in the pub I have got to know many people in this area. When dd was born we were overwhelmed with cards and presents from the pub regulars including bar staff and the landlady.

Dp is popular in there, and I have often felt that he feels very bored at home. In comparison with all that attention I am not nearly so interesting. SO he comes (came) back to me when the pub has satisfied his need for company. When we got a rare night out he always insisted we had to "pop in", even though I didn't want to - but he would inist that people wanted to see me.

I was very jealous of the pub. And could never figure out if it was the pub or the drinking that was the problem. But if we moved I know he would establish just as close a bond with another pub, that is just his nature. In my first post I said that I was 99% sure he was an alcholic, but 1% of me wondered if I was overreacting. It is this business of him being like a caged animal at home that has always upset me. I could see him calculating the minute he walked in the door how long he had to stay and make small talk before he could legitmately excuse himself - but was it for the alcohol or the company? After all he could drink at home. Sometimes I would deliberately talk more and more, just to sabotage his desire to get out - but of course he always went in the end.

Perhaps what I am saying is that whether or not he is an alcoholic is not the only issue. AT the end of the day if he prefers a pub to my company, or dd's company, then I can't live with that. If I substitute the word "gym" for pub, I think I may feel the same. What do others think? If your dp wanted to exercise for 3 hours a night after work, and do it when your child was awake before bedtime, would you accept that? I am not trying to trivialise the drinking aspect -it is perfectly clear that he drinks far too much for health or to be looking after a child. And anyway, he has no other interests in his life - he describes drinking as his "main pastime".

At least he appears to be respecting my insistence on a limit on alcohol if he is seeing dd- and I think he is even rather enjoying his time with her.

Sorry for the long post. Sometimes I feel really clear, other times I am confused.

Just a quick question to thread. How much is too much, and when are they an alcoholic.

My dh has at least 3 or 4 bottles of beer a night, more at weekends. He drinks when out with clients, and when I was pregnant did not think that he should not drink so that he would be able to drive to the hospital. Writing this down makes him sound awful, he's not. Its just I think he has a drink problem, I couldn't see him go a week without booze.

He doesn't slink off to the pub, but if there is no beer he will start on the spirits. I think I have answered my own question.