Body issues. Still :(

[FolkGirl]

Hi all

I have posted about similar things on here before and had some really useful advice/responses. Things are getting better (honestly!) but this week something happened that brought it to the forefront of my mind and there's a hurdle I still can't get past.

A lot of my issues are around feelings of not being 'good enough' and self worth. On paper, I think I look pretty good, I have a number of friends, hobbies and a social life that is as active as I want it to be. I think I'm a nice person; I'm kind and thoughtful, but not a pushover. I try to be considerate, but I'm not a people pleaser. I genuinely care about other people, but I don't do things for others to the detriment of myself. I think I have a fair balance of things in that respect.

My outstanding issues all seem to be centred around how I look. And this is something I just cannot get past.

I was asked out by a man few months ago. We have become good friends; very close in fact. He is a genuinely lovely man, and I don't say that lightly! However, I am happy being single and intend to stay that way for some time (ever, even).

But it isn't strictly my choice. I don't think I'm attractive enough to have a relationship. Or slim enough. Or have an attractive enough body/physique. Now I know that this isn't the be all and end all, and I can see in the world around me that "looks aren't everything". But when it comes to myself, I can't get past it.

The issue is that I know his ex gf and she is, physically, pretty much perfect. Tall, slim, blonde, pretty and has a really lovely figure. I am none of these (the tall and blonde bit don't bother me). I couldn't even contemplate going out with him because I am objectively not as 'good' as his ex. This week, he acknowledged that she "fulfills the stereotype" and I also know that she isn't perfect in other ways. But this isn't really about her.

How can I ever have a relationship with anyone knowing that I am, objectively, not as attractive/good as their ex? And, lets face it, given than I'm nothing special and nearly 40, that's going to be true of everyone I meet (everyone is going to have dated someone who "fulfills the stereotype"). How could I ever be naked in front of someone who has previously had/seen better up close? And sex. How can I have sex with someone knowing that I don't look or feel as good as their ex? I feel that I would be such a compromise. I'm strictly in the "well I'm mid 40s now, realistically, am I going to do any better?" category. But I've never been anything else. And I don't know how I would feel about this man if this weren't an issue for me.

My self esteem is much better now than I think it has ever been and this is making it even harder. Previously, I would have suppressed all the shitty feelings and done it all anyway. Now, I don't want to feel like that, so rather than even try, I am happy and comfortable to be single. But the more I think about it, the more I realise that this is just how it is now. I'm not going to get any 'better'.

I don't even know what I want/need. I know that sexual attraction isn't based on looks alone and I do finally get it that being attractive doesn't guarantee a successful relationship (both thanks to responses on here). But in terms of myself, I don't see how I can get past this. Or whether I'm being silly to even try. Even if I had counselling, she would still be tall, slim and pretty and I would still be, well, not.

It's not helped by the fact that she is a little jealous of our friendship and has tried to sabotage it in little ways. I can't cope with the thought of her looking at me and thinking, "well, at least I've got a better arse/stomach/face/etc than her". It makes me want to walk away from the friendship I have with him, because I can do without the negativity, to be honest.

Oh and I think she did believe they were flaws.

My mother was more conventionally attractive than me (I'm more quirky looking) and I believe (from things I was told) that she was embarrassed about having produced an unattractive child, presumably because she felt it somehow reflected negatively on her.

My brother is good looking and was definitely a more attractive child. She was very proud of him.

Think of Katie Holmes...she had to follow Nicole Kidman! Not even sure I should mention Diana and Camilla...

FolkGirl This is such an internal issue, it sounds as if it's you who has decided that you aren't acceptable and the world at large doesn't get a say.

Are there any exercises you can do to try to reduce the time spent thinking in this way?
How about leaving the house and going into complete listening mode as you walk about? Just observing your the surroundings and your own thoughts as they pass by. If your ego isn't engaged, You'll spend more time listening and less time thinking.

@FolkGirl - different people want different things from potential partners; it's not always a clear case of, "Cor, I'd love to eat pork pies and mustard with Claudia Schiffer cos she's well fit, but I can't so I'll date that FolkGirl instead. "

That is, you need to let go of the references to you mother, your brother and somebody's ex and just be.

temporary I know what you're saying...

dadwood maybe you're right. I do wonder that sometimes. But it doesn't help me manage my feelings around dating someone (at some point) with more attractive exes.

FFS!

It is true, because no-one is perfect. In fact I would say love is very much about accepting someone's imperfections. It is quite de-humanising to expect someone to meet a standard of perfection; it will always be about expectations rather than reality, always be about an imposed idea of what they 'should' be. There are people who subjectively, I can think of as 'perfect' because I love them. I do not love them because they are perfect, it just couldn't work that way round - it is love that makes me see them that way. You maybe feel that about your dc - but in all honesty, are they objectively perfect? Would every inch of them meet some (ever changing in any case) current version of conventional good looks and personality? Would you love them any more if they were objectively perfect?

I think you're over estimating the extent to which people compare, and certainly the extent to which it matters. Looks are only part of why people feel attraction and love, they don't overshadow all other factors. Also, looks change, that is guaranteed.

It seems like you are really scared of being rejected by the very person who should love you , which was in a way how your mother made you feel. Maybe you are so scared of that being 'repeated' that you feel you have to meet a 'standard' in a way you felt you didn't for her, to avoid it happening again. But what happened then wasn't about you, so you don't need to change in the future to avoid it. She gave the impression that you were 'flawed' and that that related to how much she could love you. That was about her. You really don't need to be found 'perfect' in some box ticking manner to be loved.

dadwood that's what I'm trying to do. Being single is the only way I can see of managing it. I am comfortable with being single. I am sad at how loathsome I find myself, though.

"It is true, because no-one is perfect. In fact I would say love is very much about accepting someone's imperfections."

Yes and also not judging them for their imperfections, or trying to change them to fit some ideal.

FolkGirl if you spend less time feeling and more time listening to that man (for example), you will probably find that his exes are 3 dimensional, more than just their appearance, for good and ill! And as others have pointed out, all exes are ex for a reason.

MadeMan

I know, but I know that last chap I was seeing deliberately sought me out because I'm more cakes and camping than bikinis and boat parties. Which is the sort of girl he really liked and normally went for. Because he thought I'd be a better bet for a LTR and the slower pace of life he's now looking for.

Do you want to be a bikini and boat girl? Is that where the conflict lies?

FolkGirl In your reply to MadeMan You say:

Which is the sort of girl he really liked and normally went for.

Perhaps that means the sort he used to like! He changed his mind!

While I acknowledhe that if you go out to a night club and pick up a stranger for a one night stand he might think "I've had more attractive women".
If you actually fall in love mutually with a decent man and then sleep with him I swear that though will never ever cross his mind! Nobody who genuinely loves or even fancies their partner is evaluating them in that cold calculating way. Instead they are fizzing with attraction and nerves and the chemistry of the situation.
It sounds like maybe you haven't ever allowed yourself to experience that.

I used to like cider drinking, 20 Marlboro red, goth girls, but I don't think I would now though.

FolkGirl Did you try going to the gym/runnung/exercising? You need to sweat as much as possible and you defo start losing weight. Can find 30 min every day for a run?
If you have health problems that stop you from exercising - the only option left I think is learning to love yourself the way you are.

OP do you have dcs yourself? (sorry not read other threads) If so you will see the beauty in them as unique human beings, if you think about it that way it may help?

Also, you're kind of worrying about a past event in that you've already faced the worst - being criticised unfairly for physical flaws and being left for another woman (as have loads of us on here.) You have already found a way to cope with these things because you have survived it. Therefore that's the 'worst that can happen' and therefore you know you can cope and have nothing to lose by dating.

annymay1: FolkGirl's shape isn't the problem IMO, it's how she concentrates on her body image.

Maybe you are so scared of that being 'repeated' that you feel you have to meet a 'standard' in a way you felt you didn't for her, to avoid it happening again.

God, you're good. Yes, I think that might be it to an extent. I think I'm an ok person inside, so it really does just come down to what I look like physically. Most of her criticisms were about my appearance. The ones that weren't were easily challenged or corrected. But in terms of her descriptions of my appearance, well they were just fact.

I get that looks are only part of the attraction, but I can't get past the idea that it's the most important part because it's the part of me that is available and visible to everyone. I suppose I don't want someone I'm in a relationship with to feel the same level of shame, embarrassment and disgust about me as my mother did.

if you spend less time feeling and more time listening to that man (for example), you will probably find that his exes are 3 dimensional, more than just their appearance, for good and ill

I know, I know. But (and I hate myself for saying this) but they are still thinner than me, still prettier and still look better naked from behind than me.

Do you want to be a bikini and boat girl?

Not really, no. But I hate the fact that they were thinner and prettier than me and, dadwood, that when he remembered them, he still found the memory attractive in a way he didn't find me attractive.

I used to like cider drinking, 20 Marlboro red, goth girls, but I don't think I would now though.

See, I don't find the same image attractive as I used too (tight black jeans, big boots, black mohawk...) but I still find the sort of man attractive that I used to.

It sounds like maybe you haven't ever allowed yourself to experience that.

I'm not sure I've ever had the opportunity to experience it, to be honest. I've said before that I'm always more comfortable in fwb/fb situations than in a relationship. I feel confident and quite sexy if there's no emotional involvement. Once it looks like a relationship, I really struggle.

Can find 30 min every day for a run?

Not everyday. I dance at least once every week and I'm active at work. I could fit in a run 3 times a week I think. And I have planned to do it. But the truth is that 12 years ago, I was 8st3 and 34-24-35 and I didn't feel any differently about myself. In many ways, I actually look 'better' now (I was too skinny for my frame then), but I don't see how a man would find me attractive now at all. And I am, objectively, not as slim and attractive as other women and whilst there are women who are 'better' than me, I will not be good enough.

So it just feels like I need to leave it all. But as someone said up thread, it really worries me that one day I'll regret having wasted all this time worrying and on my own. But I'll just need to remember exactly how I felt about myself.

I second the PP who said that there isno universal gold standard of "perfect" anywhere outside the media; beauty is subjective. And not all men like tall, skinny women!!

Look at female athletes like the Williams sisters, Rebecca Adlington or Kat Zingano, people who do amazing things with their bodies and whose business it is to be in peak physical condition: not onr of them is a lanky supermodel type, but all are incredibly fit and uniquely attractive. Healthy trumps skinny every time.

A healthy, happy, confident woman who works what she's got and doesn't let what she doesn't have get her down, while she may not get groped in nightclubs by the lads' mag brigade, is always attractive.

FolkGirl I think you might be quite comfortable and attached to your idea that you are unacceptable. It's a perfect way of protecting you from being rejected. As the poster pointed out upthread, you could miss out on relationships for the rest of your life.

When you tackle that idea that you aren't acceptable, it might leave you feeling exposed for a while but you won't be able to have a well balanced relationship if you can't accept yourself.

dadwood it is harsh but people have said as much to me. I agree that people who are "on" all the time are hiding behind it.

This isn't just about relationships, if it's affecting you so much that you don't want to go out to places. That's more than thinking his ex is prettier than you, that is body dysmorphia. Seeing as you've been feeling this way for such a long time, I do think you need some professional help with this.

dadwood It upset me a little to read that. But I can see how you might have a point. At the moment, I'm quite comfortable with the idea of not having a relationship. It doesn't feel like I'd be missing out. I know that's probably what I need right now, too, but then it makes me sad to think I could get to the end of my life never having been loved. That makes me very sad.

I do kind of wonder if it would really matter, if it meant I didn't have to go through the feelings of anxiety and disgust that go with a relationship!

Pandora I've felt like this since I was a teenager. In my very early twenties, I fantasised about hacking chunks of myself off. And this was at the time my measurements suggested I was slim (as above). I've never had an eating disorder, but I have avoided going to places, doing things, even walking up to the bar to get served or going to to the loo because I've worried about bumping into things and getting stuck because I was so big. Objectively, I don't think I was that big. But I feel disgusted with myself.

Don't know where to start though. I had to self refer for counselling earlier this year, but had to stop when I started a new job and couldn't make it.

Sorry FolkGirl! I'm a bit unsubtle sometimes!

OH no, don't apologise. It only upset me because I think you might be right.

I've spent all this time thinking I hated feeling like this and don't know how to change it, but the idea that I might be 'choosing' to feel like this is quite a shock. But not an idea I can reject.

I do feel quite safe in it.