Body issues. Still :(

[FolkGirl]

Hi all

I have posted about similar things on here before and had some really useful advice/responses. Things are getting better (honestly!) but this week something happened that brought it to the forefront of my mind and there's a hurdle I still can't get past.

A lot of my issues are around feelings of not being 'good enough' and self worth. On paper, I think I look pretty good, I have a number of friends, hobbies and a social life that is as active as I want it to be. I think I'm a nice person; I'm kind and thoughtful, but not a pushover. I try to be considerate, but I'm not a people pleaser. I genuinely care about other people, but I don't do things for others to the detriment of myself. I think I have a fair balance of things in that respect.

My outstanding issues all seem to be centred around how I look. And this is something I just cannot get past.

I was asked out by a man few months ago. We have become good friends; very close in fact. He is a genuinely lovely man, and I don't say that lightly! However, I am happy being single and intend to stay that way for some time (ever, even).

But it isn't strictly my choice. I don't think I'm attractive enough to have a relationship. Or slim enough. Or have an attractive enough body/physique. Now I know that this isn't the be all and end all, and I can see in the world around me that "looks aren't everything". But when it comes to myself, I can't get past it.

The issue is that I know his ex gf and she is, physically, pretty much perfect. Tall, slim, blonde, pretty and has a really lovely figure. I am none of these (the tall and blonde bit don't bother me). I couldn't even contemplate going out with him because I am objectively not as 'good' as his ex. This week, he acknowledged that she "fulfills the stereotype" and I also know that she isn't perfect in other ways. But this isn't really about her.

How can I ever have a relationship with anyone knowing that I am, objectively, not as attractive/good as their ex? And, lets face it, given than I'm nothing special and nearly 40, that's going to be true of everyone I meet (everyone is going to have dated someone who "fulfills the stereotype"). How could I ever be naked in front of someone who has previously had/seen better up close? And sex. How can I have sex with someone knowing that I don't look or feel as good as their ex? I feel that I would be such a compromise. I'm strictly in the "well I'm mid 40s now, realistically, am I going to do any better?" category. But I've never been anything else. And I don't know how I would feel about this man if this weren't an issue for me.

My self esteem is much better now than I think it has ever been and this is making it even harder. Previously, I would have suppressed all the shitty feelings and done it all anyway. Now, I don't want to feel like that, so rather than even try, I am happy and comfortable to be single. But the more I think about it, the more I realise that this is just how it is now. I'm not going to get any 'better'.

I don't even know what I want/need. I know that sexual attraction isn't based on looks alone and I do finally get it that being attractive doesn't guarantee a successful relationship (both thanks to responses on here). But in terms of myself, I don't see how I can get past this. Or whether I'm being silly to even try. Even if I had counselling, she would still be tall, slim and pretty and I would still be, well, not.

It's not helped by the fact that she is a little jealous of our friendship and has tried to sabotage it in little ways. I can't cope with the thought of her looking at me and thinking, "well, at least I've got a better arse/stomach/face/etc than her". It makes me want to walk away from the friendship I have with him, because I can do without the negativity, to be honest.

The way I look at it is this: do you want a relationship based on looks, or one based on personality? The pretty girls out there get asked out frequently, but not because the guys like -them- necessarily, but because of their looks. So, how do they know that they aren't just a trophy girlfriend, picked to hang on the guys arm and look good? Whereas people like us - when we attract attention from men, it's because they like -us-, for our personalities, for our sense of humour, for our intelligence. In fact, if they want to be with us -despite- our looks, then they really must want to be with us, no?

Looking at the relationships of other (prettier) friends, this is confirmed by their history of failed relationships and bastard boyfriends who treat them poorly, whereas less pretty friends have done just fine in the relationship stakes.

So what if his ex is prettier than you? He could have her if he wanted, but he doesnt. He wants to hang out with you despite the fact you're not as blond or thin, so you must be something really special.

Just my outlook on life.

I like you're outlook, Wildfire.

I suppose this is where it's hard. Because I do want to be liked for my personality, but he (for example) would always be able to look at me and know that, objectively, he'd had better and more attractive. And she'd know it (they're still friends and I know her) and I'd know it.

OP it is ok to make a compromise when looking for a relationship.

Your partner might not think you are his most beautiful gf but does that actually matter? You know your not, you've admitted it to yourself and there are beautiful women everywhere we turn these days.........

If a man looks at you and thinks your attractive, he might then try to chat you up....... He might have dated a beauty queen 20 years ago. That's ok though isn't it?

My looks are below average but it's a case of making the best of what you have. Nice eyebrows, good make up, nice hair and healthy figure.

These things stand out by a mile and will give you confidence.

You just need to accept that potential dps might have dated someone better looking than you.

I certainly think that your mother is responsible for what you are going through now...........see it this way, are you really going to let her cause more aggro than she already has?

Yes but she will look at you and think 'what does she have that I haven't '

I would just make a joke of it and say, god she a right dog, what did you ever see in her

Why does it matter if his ex is more attractive than you?

No one is "objectively" more attractive than someone else, firstly. It's completely subjective.

When you look at a man, do you compare him to all the previous men you've known (without their clothes on, perhaps)? Not necessarily a rhetorical question, perhaps you do. I don't. I hope other people don't, either. If I'm seeing multiple people I actually find it bloody impossible to create a hierarchy based upon their physical appearance, even if one of them meets societal beauty standards much closer than the other. IME a body either "does it" for you or it doesn't. After that it's all about how well your bodies function together!

Women I find sexually attractive most superficially (I.e. Without having got to know them at all) are generally "average"- some might say a little bit fat. I don't find slim women repulsive but I don't really "get" the women that magazines are telling me I should find so alluring. I see no reason why many men might not feel exactly the same. The construction of the ideal woman is completely arbitrary. It's not a material "thing". Someone decided that. I don't know on whose behalf they spread the perfect body myth shit but it's not on my behalf and I would like to think it's not on the majority of mens behalf.

I am going on a bit but only because this stuff makes me so angry. I did a running race this morning and in the changing room I found myself noticing what an absolutely huge range of bodies had managed exactly the same physical demands. Our bodies are bloody awesome and some prick is making a lot of money somewhere by making us feel miserable about and dissatisfied.
And I don't just mean "our bodies are capable of so much"- but that they all have their own value (to the right people- and I think pools of desire for different body types are probably actually spread much more equally than we assume, with just as many people into big bums as taught tums, etc).

'He will know he has had better' - that shows it all. You are valuing his exes and yourself purely based on looks.

When you see an older couple in their 70's walking along hand in hand, sharing their lives, enjoying companionship and still in love, do you think - well that man clearly wishes he was still with his blonde skinny ex of 25? Or do you feel happy and warm inside and hope to have that one day?

As you get older these things become less and less important, you need to forget dating for a while and focus on your own self worth. Relationships are so much more than an exchange of physical attributes. You don't date/marry a pair of legs, it is such a shame that you can't get past it, as you are really holding yourself back, I really hope you can get past this.

"I certainly think that your mother is responsible for what you are going through now..."

Yes, I agree with this. At least you can say you haven't turned out to be like your mum, Folkgirl; she sounds awful and maybe she was just projecting her own crappy shit insecurities onto you.

"But it's just that I can't get past the thought that when push comes to shove and I'm standing (or whatever) there nekkid, I'm just not going to look as good, from any angle, as his ex. And he deserves better than that!"

I've never had any woman strip off naked in front of me and stand there waiting to be judged by my scathing Simon Cowell-esque ("it's a no from me") critique of their body.

I do remember your thread about your mother. She sounds awful, putting down her own daughter to make herself feel better. How anyone can turn having small feet and a small waist into negative things is astonishing. I'm really sorry she did that to you and I'm sure most of this stems from her.

His ex girlfriend will have some physical imperfections because everybody does. Her arse might be covered in cellulite, she might have really saggy boobs, she might have stretch marks all over her stomach. Who knows but I can guarantee she isn't physically perfect because nobody is. It doesn't matter whether she's more attractive than you or not because he fancies YOU. He's admitted that it was her personality that led to them splitting up so ultimately personality must be more important to him otherwise he'd still be with her. I can understand that you want someone to find you physically gorgeous but there's always going to be someone younger, slimmer and prettier out there. You haven't mentioned his looks at all. I'm assuming he's not some buffed up, ripped George Clooney lookalike with a 10 inch penis yet you're not thinking well he's not as good looking and hasn't got as big a dick as my previous boyfriend so I don't think I'll bother. He could well be thinking the same as you.

I have the opposite problem to you in that I think I'm quite attractive and have a good figure (although I never used to think that) but I don't think I've got a very good personality. I'm not a witty conversationalist, outgoing, upbeat or good company. In fact I think I'm very boring. So I always think men are only interested in me as I have big boobs and they'll ditch me once they get bored for someone more exciting. I stay single mostly as I'm very shy and reserved and I don't see why any man would be interested in me, other than for sex. I bet the ex has lots of insecurities too as sadly IME the majority of women do. You've said she's jealous of your friendship so that's almost guaranteed - she may well be thinking oh she's so much funnier than me, I wish I was a brunette (or whatever hair colour you are) etc. Looks fade eventually so she's not going to fulfil the stereotype forever. That's what scares me actually, once my looks are gone then I've got nothing.

Anyway, despite me banging on about his ex I don't think you should focus on her. I understand that's very difficult as she's part of your social circle but I think women spend too much time comparing themselves to other women negatively and it achieves nothing other than making you feel like crap. I do think you should focus on having therapy and just enjoying your friendship with this man. Trust that you're a good judge of character and believe him when he compliments you. IME men don't often go for one "type" but are attracted to a wide variety of women so I have no problem believing that he does fancy you.

Pandora37 I'm not a witty conversationalist, outgoing, upbeat or good company Wow you are hard on yourself! If somebody is shiny all the time, I tend to wonder if it's a veneer.

Think theres something in realising that you're simply not that much of a focus for everyone around you in the same way you are to you. I have days, lots of them, when I worry about my facial lines, my chubby legs etc. but honestly no one cares about them because they're all too hung up worrying about what ever it is about them which bugs them.

I had some truly excellent counselling once which resulted in a real breakthrough moment which boils down to - if you want to stop being judged and compared stop judging and comparing others. You may not quite realise you're doing this but by comparing yourself to others the whole time you're expecting everyone else to do the same to you.

The state you're in may feel like the opposite of self centred or egotistic but it's actually right where you're at, just not how you'd expect it to feel.

Try seeing the positive in everyone else and you might start being able to see it in you to.

As someone who's been afflicted with body image issues my entire life (to the point of needing medication and counselling), I can totally relate. However, I can only try and imagine what it must be like for women who are under such pressure from to conform to an ideal of beauty.

Nonetheless, this guy obviously does find you attractive or he wouldn't have expressed an interest. So, bit of a stock response I know, but perhaps this is more of an issue with self-perception? For me, overcoming these issues was all to do with not premising my whole identity on whether women found me objectively attractive. It meant trying to understand that I had worth regardless of whether people found me physically attractive. Now, that was a really hard thing to do.

You said your mother told you you were unlovable. Mine did too. Perhaps this is at the root of your issues? The belief that you're unlovable will easily translate into a concern with your appearance because that's the most obvious way in which desirability is measured. However, in my case I came to realise that the problem was not with my appearance at all. I remember reading something about how people think that if their appearance (or whatever else) was suddenly transformed and they looked like a film star they would have bundles of confidence and self-esteem. This guy went on to argue that actually they wouldn't. Nothing would change at all because the root feeling of being unlovable would still be there. They'd just fixate on some other aspect of personal worth - or live in fear of losing their looks (which they inevitably will). And that's why there's millions of happy, confident, conventionally unattractive people and lots of perfectly attractive people with dysmorphia and anorexia. Many of them are trying to find the validation that they lacked as a child - which of course they never will.

Sorry, this is maybe more about me. I don't know you so it's not my place to speculate. But for me, a course of counselling that helped me address that core issue really helped. You sound like an active, social, likable person. It seem it's this one issue which is preventing you from living fully - which seems such a shame. :)

I love DirtyBadger's post - and I'm the same, the blokes I like are nothing like the dudes women are supposed to go crazy for (I like them short, skinny and long-haired ). Surely there must be equal diversity of taste amongst blokes.

Sounds like your mother did her best to convince you that all those very attractive physical attributes you describe were actually negatives. She clearly has problems.

This is a really sad thread.

Folkgirl I read what you said about the man in question's ex. That's surely the whole point! She's his ex-girlfriend so, despite what you say about her looks, etc, it still didn't work out. From what you've set out in your OP it seems that he really does like you and it's sad for both of you that you are putting forward all these objections. Two people may end up being sad. Why not give it a try?

I completely agree with pippin about it being self-centred, a bit like depression which is also a "selfish" disease where the sufferer thinks about themselves all the time. This is what you are doing, in effect. I would seriously try doing what pippin suggests and try seeing the positive in everyone which may transfer to you seeing the positive in yourself.

Join a Zumba class? It'll give you a good dose of endorphins and will help you get in shape (It doesn't have to be zumba it could be any physical activity you enjoy)

Have you never fancied an unusual looking man? Tbh I rarely go for men that fulfil the stereotype, and when I have they have been dull. Just because he is a man, it doesn't mean he will be ruled by looks. I know plenty if women who are physically very gorgeous, but they are nasty or annoying as people so they end up single.

It doesn't make much sense, does it? I think it probably requires CBT, psychotherapy, that kind of thing, and would suspect it doesn't go away completely.

I could never understand why my husband found me attractive; never really believed that he did, to be honest. I can see men looking at me and finding me attractive, but also can't imagine keeping up the illusion for long.

I know, logically, that the problem is all in my head, but that doesn't make it leave my head :-) This year I had an operation on my nose, which had a very high, odd-shaped bridge. The operation was just to help me breathe - it was only after I'd arranged it that they told me it would involved lowering the bridge; that was a side-effect. But now I have a pretty normal-looking nose. At the same time I lost a couple of stone and had to get lots of new clothes in size 36, which I last wore as a teenager. But my self-image is at its lowest for years. It's clearly because of splitting up with my husband, after months of mind games and reading unflattering emails about me that he wrote to his younger, prettier mistress. Knowing that doesn't convince me I'm not unattractive, though. I'm hoping it will get better over time, and am getting help for my self-esteem issues. I don't think you can do it on your own.

If you don't get over this, you might aswell accept now that you will always be single (due to not being prepared to date anyone) and that you will probably feel increasing regret or self hatred over the years for not having given yourself a fair chance.

Do you think that maybe your relationship with your mother has led you to feel not good enough to be loved, to be chosen...and that as you have grown in confidence in other areas of your life, your looks have become the one peg you can still hang all of these negative feelings on? If it was not that area, it might be another, but for you looks were the hardest area to objectively prove yourself in, perhaps. If you're not able to move on to feeling good enough to be chosen and loved, then your mind has to find something to prevent you getting to that point...? Amateur analysis, but you do need to realise that this is about what you think, not about how others see you. Also that, very probably, the core of this is not about looks.

It sounds like you have already let this man know about your insecurity, and maybe given him a sense that you feel you are not 'good enough' for him. That can be very unattractive, and it can lead to relationships with men who enjoy being with a woman they can treat badly, and so it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. If anything is going to ruin relationships it could well be that insecurity. How you regard yourself will affect how others regard you. What has he said about your comments, did he reassure you?

When you enter in a long term relationship, woe betide you if looks are the major factor let alone the only one. People age, people get ill, people change. What about a conventionally beautiful and slim model who believes that many other women are nevertheless more attractive than her? Does she leave any man who might feel the same? If all women bowed out on that basis, there would be a lot of single men and about two very pretty women left in relationships.

You have to accept that someone might love you for who you are, and they may also find you beautiful. I'm interested to know, how do feel if you meet a woman who you think is less attractive than you? Do you feel that her husband or partner cannot really want to be with her? Do you feel better than her? I'll bet you don't, but please do say.

Thanks for the replies.

Just to be clear, I'm not dating, or interested in dating, or even thinking about dating. I can't imagine a point when this will change any time soon. It's just that this man/situation has got me thinking about it and how I feel about myself and whether I could change it or even should try and change it.

And I agree that my mother was projecting on to me; and she was trying to make herself feel better by putting me down; etc but, if I didn't have these imperfections, then she wouldn't have been able to comment on them. I think she was wrong to say the things she did, but I think her observations, in the main, were accurate.

Quitelikely I don't want someone to compromise for me. That's the point. If at some point I am in a relationship again, I do want them to look at me and think they're lucky to be with me and that I'm perfect. Not that they've had to compromise. Given that I would be a compromise, it makes sense to just take myself out of the whole thing. But that makes me feel really sad too.

Mel0Drama I see what you're saying, and let's just say you're absolutely right, I would be comparing myself to the ex(es) and I wouldn't feel attractive. Because with my exbf, I really did try to feel attractive. He had no idea how I really felt about myself, not for a second, but he just didn't find me physically attractive. He said he loved me, but he just didn't 'fancy' me. And it's not the first time. So either, I'm really unlucky/choose really badly and only date men who don't find me sexually/physically attractive, or I'm just objectively not and no one would. Which, to be fair, I can see that I'm not.

BigPaws Because I don't want someone to have lowered their standards to be with me. Because I don't want someone who has 'settled' for me. Because I don't want them to remember an ex more fondly than they look at me. Because I don't want him to see her (which in this case, he does, they are still friends) and find her more physically attractive than me. Because I don't want a bf to look at an ex and admire a physical aspect of them when he has to look at the same physical aspect of me and have it do nothing for him, or find it actively off putting, or have to ignore how it makes him feel. For all those reasons, I suppose.

DirtyBadger I appreciate what you are saying, but if you stood the two of us next to each other and had to compare us to each other, she would fare better than me in most areas. My boobs are bigger than hers. But that's only because I'm fatter than her! Some things aren't comparable: the fact she's blonde and I'm auburn - not an issue; the fact she's tall and I'm not - not an issue. But the other stuff is.

Pandora Nice try, and I appreciate the effort, but she really is very close to perfect. As he said, she "fulfills the stereotype". He didn't say that because she looks alright with her clothes on but it all falls apart when she's naked! You made a lot of good points, and you are very hard on yourself, too . And yes, it is just this one issue that's getting in the way of me living life fully.

Pippin I know I'm not that much of a focus for people around me. That's why it's not an issue for me when I'm single. I don't think most people will give me a second thought in that respect. But what you look like physically, particularly when you're naked, particularly during sex, when the other person is well aware of what you look like. And I know that they're not looking at me and thinking I'm great. And that's an issue for me. And I can see the positives in everyone else. I rarely think unkind or negative things about others. But I'm very hard on myself. But even if I wasn't, it still wouldn't change whether or not I'm attractive, or the fact that an ex was more attractive than me.

Joe Thank you. How did you do that? Find the self worth? Because I can see my worth in other respects. I don't think I do feel 'worthless' any more. I did. It's more that I'm not 'good enough'. And 'good enough' is a pretty low standard in most respects! I could tell you some of my good points, but I fail on appearance. And that really bothers me. I know how vain that sounds. But I don't know how to change it. And even if I could/should try. I mean, I could think I was as good as/attractive as someone else, but it wouldn't make it true.

Sicaq she did have problems. We're NC with her now. But it doesn't mean she was wrong. She wasn't. It just wasn't very nice of her to point all my flaws out to me!

Castle I'm not going to give it a try. It would fail. I'm not in the right place at all. But even when I think about it, it makes me feel disgusted. I get a tightening in my chest and feel a blockage in my throat. I can feel my pulse quickening and a sick feeling in my stomach. I can feel tears in my eyes and feelings of jealousy rising. And that's just not me. I don't want to feel like that. Or rather it is me. I've always felt inadequate, physically, it's just that now it's such a contrast to the way I feel about myself generally, that it really stands out.

I didn't go to something today because of how 'visible' I feel - I can't hide my unattractiveness. I've cancelled something else. I've got a couple of other things coming up, and I don't want to drop out of those too. And it's not even about other people comparing me unfavourably. I'm just embarrassed and ashamed of myself for not being better and I feel I shouldn't inflict myself on anyone else.

Hi Folkgirl,

I know this girl who is very plump. She is married to a very handsome slim guy. She is so beautiful in her own way. The light way she carries her body, the playful look in her face make her so beautiful in her own way.
As for your issue with not feeling beautiful in the bedroom - I don't think sex is about aesthetic beauty. It's more of an animalistic and instinctive in my opinion. My bf always asks me to make a dirty face in the process which apparently turns him on a lot. I say "it looks ugly". He says "I don't care it's ugly. Just make it dirty". What I'm trying to say is that guys are not necessarily looking for the beauty in sex. Plus I think the most beautiful thing is feeling comfortable and confident in your own body.

Ihate already got that box ticked. But I'm constantly aware of how unattractive I am, or how I appear from different angles, or what I look like. Never let it show, though. No one knows how I feel about myself.

Guilty I don't really have a physical type. I've been out with tall, skinny, bald men and short stockier men with a thick head of hair. I don't find conventionally attractive men attractive, either. But when this man, or any man, looks at me and can see that he's been out with slimmer, more attractive girls, he is going to be aware that I'm not as slim or attractive as other women out there. That I'm not as aesthetically pleasing. That I'm not as good as them.

raven so sorry to hear you feel bad about yourself, too. It is horrible and so unfair. I suspect you're right and it would take something slightly more invasive than just me trying to ignore it. But I don't feel strong enough to tackle it at the moment.

temporary Wow. Your post was really insightful. Your first sentence sums up both how I feel about myself now, and my biggest fear for the future.

Your second paragraph is pretty accurate too. My mother told me I was unloveable. I've always known it. And yes, what I look like is something I can't change, I can't hide, I can't improve. I can't correct it. And everyone can see it. I hate it.

As far as this man goes, all he knows is that I don't feel ready to date at the moment and I want to be single. I know it probably sounds like I've compared myself with his ex to him, and moaned a lot, but that's not the case. The fulfiling the stereotype comment was unrelated to me and the comment about me was because we were talking about health issues and I said I could stand to lose a stone or so (I could), he said I was still very pretty, I laughed and said I'd be even prettier if there was a stone or so less of me to hide it, he made the comment. I wasn't being negative or whiney or insecure. I purposefully come across as quite confident in a 'fake it till you make it' way. But I'm not making it.

Um, I don't often meet women I consider 'less' attractive than me. I don't really judge other women in the same way. I never think I'm 'better' than anyone else though. I don't feel intimidated or inadequate around women who aren't more attractive than me, though.

If I do see a woman who isn't conventionally attractive with her partner, I generally make a mental note of it and try and store it as positive evidence for the next time I'm feeling shit about myself, that men do fall for women who aren't 'perfect'. But it doesn't really work.

I don't see why you say your mother was right about your so called flaws. It sounds like she would have found something to criticise no matter what. Even if she really believed they were flaws, which I doubt, that is just one opinion. Also, she gave you the wrong impression about the relevance of these 'flaws'. They are not, and should not be, a factor in whether you are loved or not.

You don't have to think someone is perfect to love them completely.

annymay Yes, I know that girl too... but I don't want to be beautiful in my own way.

I just don't want someone to look at me and know they've had better before me.

But they will.

So I'm just taking myself out of it.

There have been some really kind, thoughtful and supportive posts on here, but I still can't 'get it'. Nothing has been said that I haven't already said to myself.

Also, she gave you the wrong impression about the relevance of these 'flaws'. They are not, and should not be, a factor in whether you are loved or not.

THat's the sort of thing where I need to know if it's really true, and how I know it's true and if it's true for other people and, indeed, all people. And to know how to think it myself and know it.

You don't have to think someone is perfect to love them completely.

No, but I don't see how anyone could love me if they could look at me and think, "my ex was slimmer and more attractive than FG", either. So complicated