I think my STBXH is drugging my DC...

[Aliensloveunderpants00]

Wasn't sure where to post about this, MN feel free to move!

I have 2 yo twins. They are both terrible sleepers; put them in their cots at around 7pm but they don't actually fall asleep until at least 9.30pm on a good day (lots of screaming and crying etc etc). Then they're up at 6am sharp, many morning as early as 4am. Their room is very quiet, they have comfy very good mattresses and it's not too hot or too cold.

They stay with their father every other weekend for two nights. DD1 (she's 11) always has joked about how at his they seem to sleep forever and have lie ins every morning they stay there. I just called her to chat and she said they're still sleeping and will only wake up at 9.30am as they always do; apparently they went to bed at 6pm and fell asleep straight away and that really has got me thinking.

Now, a bit of backstory. Things between us are hell; he's a very abusive and at times violent man. From the moment I separated he's made it really clear he wants nothing to do with the twins (and yes, all DC are his). He doesn't brush their teeth or hair EVER (mixed race so completely knotted after two days), shoes on the wrong foot, constant nappy rash when they get back as well as terrible coughs/runny noses every time etc... he had them for a week during school holidays and for six days straight he didn't change their clothes, even to sleep!! (eldest sent a 'look how cute twinnies are sleeping in their grobags' picture six days in and there they were on the photo wearing the little dresses I handed them in a week earlier ); DC1 confirmed they've been wearing them since day 1. A lot more things like this which makes me feel they are an inconvenient to him more than anything else (which he has made very clear on emails too).

I guess my question is, what can I do? Is there any way I can check whether he's drugging them to sleep so they don't bother him in the mornings/ evenings? I wouldn't put it past him and it's really worrying me.

Thank you

Ok, it's all clearer. Stop contact completely. With the help of SS, if you can. Document it all.

If anything, your DD is more at risk than the twins.

At the age she is, although she will be angry, you are still in control - you WILL be able to stop contact, and I would bet that despite your DD's protestations, it won't be long before she will actually be happier. There is most likely a lot of subtle emotional abuse going on when she is there - what you are hearing is her need to please him, as much as anything else.

If you are lucky, he will lose interest if made to jump through hoops.

For all those howling about grooming and how awful the OP is for letting her dcs go, it's really not that easy to stop contact. The twins, yes, sounds like he's not that keen anyway and stopping contact is both desirable and possible.

For the elder dd, if she wants contact, and the father wants it, it's going to be really hard to stop it. The bar is set very, very low - the judge I dealt with made an explicit comparison to the children he encountered in relation to care orders. If my ex wasn't mistreating dd to the extent that those children were mistreated, then he was deemed to be "good enough" to have unsupervised contact (but not 50:50, which is what he was asking for).

OP, I'm not saying that there's no point trying. I'd definitely be talking to SS, definitely be stopping the overnights with the twins, and do as much as you can to put boundaries around contact with your elder dd. This is a process, and it takes time to negotiate your way through it. Well done on having an action plan, and best of luck with seeing it through, as best you can.

No. No. No. The mention of grooming was referring to "emotional grooming". Nothing sexual at all. Please don't misunderstand the person who made that observation. Patterns of behaviour can be learned and he's attempting to teach your eldest daughter some extremely sinister lessons: the twins in their formative years also. His neglect of them is extremely worrying and potentially terribly harmful, and that's not even considering the possibility of them being medicated.

The children's father is an abusive man. His hold on you is loosening because you have separated and instigated divorce proceedings. This leaves only a small number of ways he can attempt to punish or harm you and that is through the children.

Flame away... Now, I love MN for the massive support network it is but FFS why are you going an internet forum about this, surely people have more common sense than to let their dc's near someone who they suspect is drugging them???
Give me strength.

This is a very serious situation and you can't afford to take personally what people are saying here. For whatever reason - and there are many potential reasons, all valid in themselves - some huge things are slipping under your radar. No-one is suggesting you're a bad parent. In fact, you may be being 'too' good in some ways.

SS would put it much more succinctly. You're better off hearing it here first to give you a chance to wake up to what could be going on. Give people the credit for recognising aspects of a situation without the psychological jamming that an abusive dynamic can throw over it.

your agreement that you have signed as a prelude to divorce doesnt actually have any legal standing at all. I assumed that because it went before a judge that it was a legal document, but later, when I stopped contact between my daughter and my abusive ex, I found out that it really wasnt worth the paper that it was written on - its just a formality to show that you have discussed things and worked it out before they move onto the finances and then the divorce. Its not a court order. So at this point you can do what the hell you want in regard contact and if he objects then he will have to take out a court order to gain contact. Same as CSA for maintanance - no matter what he has SAID he will pay as a prelude to divorce, if he doesnt you can go to CSA and get it sorted out independently.

I agree with those that say emotional abuse of the 'golden' daughter - she is picking up his attitude, she is accociating being content with someone who is nasty (and watching how he treats her siblings is VERY nasty) because he says words and buys things that she likes. He is modelling her future boyfriends to her every time he sees her. And regarding the twins, well there is no reason on earth for him to have them at all, and i will doubt that he will fight it.

I would rather throw myself in front of a rocket than send my kids near that man.

Child abuse. Child abuse. Child abuse.

I wish social services were on MN

It is harder than some on here make out. Especially when you are coming from a relationship where he abused you too.
My Dsis and I have a great relationship but she has been just as damaged being the golden child as me being the scapegoat. You do need to protect all of your children.
I hope you get it sorted.

good grief. this needs to calm down. the grooming comment was OTT. please have a word with your gp op and go from there.

OP, if you've been in an abusive relationship it is pretty common to have lost confidence in your ability to tell whether the abusive person's behaviour is reasonable or not. Although you're separated, you are clearly still in an abusive dynamic with your STBXH, so it isn't surprising that you haven't been able to step back and judge his actions objectively.

From what you've said, it sounds like he may regard DD1 as an extension of himself (and therefore deserving of good treatment) and the DTs as an extension of you (and therefore deserving of "punishment" because he is angry with you). Not a healthy situation for any of the children. Your priority needs to be damage limitation for all 3 DCs. For the DTs I think you are right to stop/limit contact, although best to get legal advice on this from someone who has some understanding of domestic abuse (do you have a solicitor already dealing with your divorce?).

Damage limitation may be trickier for DD1. I don't have any personal experience of contact orders, but from what I've read on MN it is unlikely that your STBXH's behaviour would be seen as warrant limiting contact with an 11-year-old who wants to see him. So I think you need to consider how you can start to build up some psychological defences for her against his manipulation. Have you tried talking to her about how her father treats her siblings? You need to avoid criticising him directly (because then she may feel obliged to leap to his defence and side with him against you), but you could try asking her how his behaviour makes her feel. It is quite likely that she has mixed emotions towards him - positive because of how he treats her but negative because of how he treats the DTs. You could describe how his treatment of you made you feel similar mixed emotions, e.g. "When Daddy did x I felt really happy, but when he did y I felt upset and sad", and then discuss whether it is OK for someone else to make you feel upset, scared etc. The aim is to get her thinking about the relationship between his words/actions and how she feels, so that eventually she can start to make her own judgements about what is acceptable behaviour within loving relationships. I think it's a good sign that she has felt able to speak out when she doesn't like the way he is treating the DTs, but it isn't really her job to monitor her father's behaviour - and there might be consequences for her if she "defies" him in this way.

Regarding your 11 y.o. daughter. I've read on the subject of parental alienation recently and it's negative effect on children. The article was saying that a child has an independent need for both parents after the divorce unless the child abuse takes place. You say that your ex treats 11 y.o. daughter very well and she has very good relationship with him. Why would you stop the contact between her and the father?

annymay1, the point is that the OP's ex doesn't treat their DD1 well, except in the most superficial sense (time/attention/money). He shows an extreme degree of favoritism in his treatment of the children. The 11-year-old is learning how to be a parent from her father - what is he teaching her? That it is OK to treat some children in a family well and neglect others? That unpleasant behaviour is fine if there is some nice stuff thrown in?

I would hazard a guess that her father's "good treatment" (by which I mean attention and gifts/treats) is conditional on the DD being grateful (so that Daddy can feel like a great parent), not disagreeing or challenging him, not expressing wishes that exclude him (like wanting to go to a friend's birthday party instead of seeing her father). He is using her to meet his own emotional needs, and she learns that in order to keep someone happy you have to suppress your own feelings/opinions/needs.

Contact is supposed to be based around the best interests of the child. It isn't unreasonable of the OP to think about limiting contact until her STBXH shows himself capable of treating all 3 children fairly and equally. As things stand at present, the OP's DD1 may have very conflicted feelings about her father - pleasure at being with him because she loves him, satisfaction that she is the favourite, guilt at how he treats her siblings, apprehension that he might stop treating her well if she doesn't please him. That's a tough mix for an 11-year-old to process.

I'm sorry to sound horribly superior here anny but you need to hang around MN for a while to get the gist of the abusive dynamic. There's a lot to learn about dysfunctional - therefore harming, abusive - relationships; some of which can look 'good' from the outside eg the rank favouritism for the golden child (which is extremely disordered and harmful). Some of us have experienced the abusive dynamic and spot it in an instant. Perhaps you haven't - it seems not tbh. Listen and learn eh.

Thank you all. I'm still reading and so grateful for all your advice. I'll be taking DT tomorrow for blood tests and will also get SS involved this week as I'll be effectively stopping all contact moving forward. Your help has been invaluable, thank you all do much.

it sounds like he may regard DD1 as an extension of himself (and therefore deserving of good treatment) and the DTs as an extension of you (and therefore deserving of "punishment"

^ Can't scroll back for whoever wrote this but it makes so much sense. He has often expressed on emails how he wants nothing to do with DT and how I tricked him to have them for me to dump him once I had them etc (I left when the twins were just five months old). Scary how everything makes so much sense and I'm such an idiot for not realising earlier

Aliens you are not an idiot. You are struggling to deal with an abusive person. It's much easier for us to see patterns and red flags in your STBXH's behaviour because we're not living in the thick of it like you are. Trust me, plenty of us have had a "How could I not have realised what was going on?" moment!

You have taken stock of your situation and made a plan of action. That's not an idiot, that's a parent who is determined to do the best by her DCs. I wish you the best of luck.

Thank you Buster. I can't help but thinking I should have realised and taken action earlier though...Nothing I can do about that now.

Aliens what matters is what you do now. You're taking DTs to GP and that is a great first step.

Do let us know how you get on. I suspect that in a year you will be looking back upon this time and realising how far you've come. Hang in there.

Oh well done Alien. Proud of you, girl

Not meant to be patronising - just know how hard it is. HOw blinded we get, how painful it is when we see it and beat ourselves up for not seeing it before when it was so OBVIOUS. It isn't obvious at the time is all I can say.

Well done for taking solid steps. So sorry you've been through this horrific nightmare.

Yes, please keep us posted.

You clearly need to protect your children from harm. This is what police and ss will do. Go to them, not your solicitor.
Your oldest, bless her, is pleading with you to stop this. Why do you think she is sending you the pictures and telling you about the sleeping? He is abusing her by allowing her to witness this, anyone experienced in child protection will tell you this. As others suggested, she has been groomed to think that Dad's a good person, despite this she is warning you about what's happening. My guess is that given half a chance, when she knows she is safe, she will tell the professionals everything they need to know.

Thank you all. Willkommen She's actually completely impartial and never talks about the other parent (I know this because he's still ranting on emails about me having a boyfriend etc. ... we actually split up last year); it is me the one texting/calling her at key times and asking in passing what DT are up to. ..

An update from me: I tried to book an emergency appt with my GP on the day they got back but was told it wasn't classed as an emergency and I would need to wait for a week. Tried A&E and got the same response. Also got in touch with Social Services who couldn't help re tests etc but they recorded my concerns and said someone would call me back, that was last Tue and I still haven't heard from them. . Meeting with my solicitor on Friday am.

I guess my main concern is that at the moment I don't have proof that he's actually doing anything. His word against mine on everything, which I guess won't hold up in court. I'm stopping all contact from now on with DT (although he doesn't know it yet. .. working out best way to let him know as all hell's going to break loose).

Ugh how frustrating!

Have you got a GP appt now?

All the best with the solicitor.

Could you tell ex babies are sick and need to stay home? (Play for time)

Yes that's exactly what I'm doing, a friend is over visiting from abroad and I'm planning to tell him I'll be keeping DT with me with the excuse of my friend not having been able to see them for a while. That gives me three weeks to work out the best course if action (maybe looking into some blood testing done privately instead of going via GP?)

Surely a urine test would be the thing to do, that's what they use to catch people using illegal drugs. You could try and collect some wee on a Sunday night and store it or I believe some people buy testing kits online, of course it would depend on what he is using to knock them out.

Hi op

Different drugs hang around in the body for different amounts of time so in your shoes I would take a wee sample from DTs now and pop it in the fridge, then order some of the 11 in 1 drug tests from amazon (exact same type of tests the NHS uses) and pay for next day delivery. Then test both a fresh sample and the fridged one.

Might not show anything (or stand up in court), but if it does i'd be straight on the phone to the police and expect them to back you with refusing access to all 3 dcs.

Good luck.

Sorry crossed with wiggly, wouldn't wait around and never be sure...