Selfish vs martyr - which is a better role model for children?

[Toastandstrawberryjam]

Ideally of course neither. But if it was between the two, what is less damaging for them to see?

So as not to drip feed, I'm often accused of being a martyr by my DH (I don't agree), whereas he acknowledges he is very selfish. His theory is that it's better to get what you want in life no matter who you upset along the way. My theory isn't quite the same.

I do stuff for me too :) I'm lucky that I have good friends to go and have coffee with. I read a lot. Do exercise classes. I've been known to go round art galleries/museums on my own as a treat to myself.

and in answer to the previous question, he's not great when I'm ill!

He sounds a misery to live with!!!

How does he express his love for you?

Did he always get things his own way as a child?

Do you challenge his behaviour? When he leaves a trolley by the car for example?

What would happen if you stopped doing things for him?

Sorry I'm posting far too much on your thread but it's very interesting .

It sounds like you do look after yourself which is excellent.

Martyr is just another side to the selfish coin. That is not what you are doing.

I agree with Attila about the people pleasing though. When do you get time to be selfish. When do you get to walk out of the house and leave your responsibilities behind (if only for a couple of hours)?

Your husband doesn't sound very nice and he is definitely not showing his children a good example.

Yes I sometimes challenge his behaviour but he's so absolutely sure of his reasoning.

No I don't think he did get his own way as a child.

I wonder if his thinking goes a bit like this song?

m.youtube.com/watch?v=JOuQywiRUJo

Man Needs A Maid by Neil Young. Sometimes people who are very scared of being hurt /exploited, often irrationally so, can act like this.

Have you ever been tempted to stop doing things for him?

i really haven't been tempted to ever just stop doing things for him, because it's second nature to me. And because I just do nice things for everyone then it would seem cruel in a way?

Oh and the feeder comment? I do non food treats too! But you might have a point with that. I've had an eating disorder and have a recurrent ulcer so food isn't a "happy thing" for me the way it is for others.

you come across as people pleasing (the cake buying for him is one such example). I would read up on that particular subject.

re your comment:-
"No I don't feel like I miss out because I do things for others. I genuinely do enjoy doing things to help people or be kind to people. I don't do it for praise or recognition but it does make me feel happy to make someone else's life a bit easier or brighter"

That is the epitome of people pleasing behaviour. They may well not reciprocate your kindness.

Attila, I'm interested by your comments. What is wrong with people pleasing? Genuine question.

My parents are both very selfless people and do a lot for others. They're also not very assertive (my mother in particular) and have certainly not always stood up for themselves at times when I think they've been taken for a ride by others - but they're not fools, so the things I'm thinking of have not had any really serious consequences.

They're not martyrs, though, as most people have defined it here - they don't make a tremendous song and dance about what they do for other people and how tiring/demanding/expensive it all is, they just do it, regardless of whether it's noticed or not, never mind reciprocated.

From my limited understanding I would say they are both people pleasers but why is this a bad thing in principle?

Sorry to derail, OP, but I think this is relevant to your situation. FWIW, I think your husband sounds rather a sorry specimen. I don't care how high you can climb up the greasy pole with that 'Every man for himself' attitude, it's not worth it in terms of the misery it causes to others and it is a very unlikeable personality trait.

My parents were/are like it. It has definitely had an effect on how I operate in life.

I veer between seeing my mum as a victim to my dads self centeredness and as a fool and facilitator.

Believe me, they are in their 70s now and she is more or less his slave. In fact we all were really.

I actually think my dad has a personality disorder, and it sounds like your DH does too.

It wasn't much fun growing up in my house. We all loved the times my dad was away or at work. However, true to form, he stopped work when I was 12 and off went mum to slog her guts out full time AND do everything else at home AND care for his mother etc etc. I kind of see that as the end of my childhood and I spent long hours hanging around after school to avoid going home

Just be careful.

I think he's got the definition of 'martyr' wrong in his head, hasn't he - for him, it's anyone who does anything that benefits anyone else. In fact, what he thinks such people are, is fools - and that we should all go through life pleasing No.1 and No.1 only. It's odd, unsocialised behaviour for an adult - does he display bad manners in all the little things in group situations ( helping himself without making sure there's enough to go round, always watching what he wants on TV regardless of what others want, etc)?And that's without even considering 'altruism'. In terms of human civilisation, altruism and generosity are more highly regarded than selfishness. You are a more evolved being than him, is the consensus here, I think! Just make sure your own needs are not swallowed up in your altruism.

It's almost like he is telling you not to express your love to him. Something in him seems to be pushing your love away. He might be trying to express that he thinks does not deserve love because he is selfish. If he does not give because he does not want to be exploited, it shows he is defending himself against other people, just like him and acts selfishly as a defence mechanism.

Yes it would be what he wants on tv. He makes his own breakfast before anyone else's (DC).

And yes he does think my behaviour makes me a fool, that much is obvious.

Does he work in a dog eat dog environment, OP?

Ghastly, ghastly attitude. You sound far too nice for him, OP. It sounds as though you have your life pretty well balanced and he is over-using the word "martyr" shamefully. You aren't sacrificing yourself for everyone else, you're building nice things for other people into your social life and caring responsibilities. Civilisation would break down if we were all as inconsiderate as your H seems to think we should be. (Although I strongly suspect he doesn't mean you should be more selfish towards him - just, you know, everyone who isn't him. Including his own children ).

Yes I think his work environment is a fairly selfish one, each man or woman to themselves. His colleagues all seem to have high flying career wives too (and nannies for their DC). It's a different world.

Sorry, not that there's anything wrong with having a career. I didn't mean to infer that.

He sounds like Peter Pan. A teenager for ever.

What are your kids like OP?

I would be tempted to stop doing things for DH as a light hearted experiment - not out of cruelty. Because it might enable him to look further into his actions and reassess his attitude

But alternatively it might be that he is unable to see things from other people's points of view because of an underlaying condition

Agree with Annie. I suspect you being 'selfish' wouldn't involve anything that would directly impact him or require him pulling his weight eg. not cooking for him or doing his washing or looking after his children. Only he gets to opt out of those things.

Cross-posted with Walkacross , yeah that!

I think there are two definitions of "martyr" being expressed on this thread. The historical meaning is about sacrifice, innit, so your actual old-fashioned martyr would go to their graves without murmuring complaint, and this may be what the H is getting at. The other kind you might call "professional martyrs", who make jolly sure that everyone knows they are self-sacrificing even when other people don't ask or expect them to. (Kind of like the difference between "victim" - someone who has had something horrible happen to them - and "professional victim", who uses it as an excuse for everything for ever more!) I think we have established the OP definitely isn't the latter and probably isn't the former either.

As for whether her H is pushing her love away because he doesn't want to be exploited: well, maybe, but he could just be supremely selfish. Some people are, you know.

My kids? Well I'm always being told by teachers etc that they are polite, well behaved, friendly, kind. I see these as positive attributes. They like helping their peers (middle DC is a bit of a people pleaser tho, even I can see that). Eldest is a bit more like DH.

Annie supremely selfish people are often deeply vulnerable too. Vulnerability can make a person selfish, as a defence mechanism. Not to say the selfishness should be encouraged or enabled. More that dealing with people like this is very difficult because becoming as selfish as them can reinforce their idea that their world view is correct. Balance is needed.

There is a type of person who sees the virtues of others not as something to be admired but as a criticism of themselves. It's sort of emotional sour grapes. So the other person is not giving money to charity because they are public-spirited, they are doing it 'because they have a guilty conscience and it's a tax dodge'. The other person is not living in a nice house because they've worked hard or made sacrifices, they're just 'lucky bastards rubbing other people's noses in it who haven't had the same advantages'.

So your generosity and thoughtfulness which should be something he cherishes about you highlights that he is neither. So you are despised for it. And if you go as far as to say 'why can't you be more generous or thoughtful?', that only serves to confirm that you believe you are superior.

He has made both the guilty conscience and lucky bastards comments in the past!