oogling young girls

[typingtoofast]

Myself and my partner have decided to give it another try. He is convinced im the woman for him and has apologised for his regular selfish episodes where I have to explain to him that his behaviour is not condusive to a healthy relationship. Ultimately he's selfish. But he has improved and I have seen a loving, attentive and kind man. I was beginning to think that this was a great new start for our relationship and was glad to give it another shot as had missed him when I decided to end it. The break gave me and him perspective and what was important to us both. All that aside.
We were out today in town and a group of young girls (16yr olds I'd say)were obviously heading off on a halloween party night. I had mentioned how inappropriate I thought the outfits were as they were extreamely revealing. You get the picture. In my mind I'm also thinking how they will catch their death of cold!
He views the girls and says they're out for a good night and laughs. He almost snapped his neck gawping. Now nobody could help it as the outfits as i said were ott. But then he replies they'll be teasing the boys later in the nightclub. I reply yes and that's just wrong.
I have in hay days worn revealing outfits and I replied that I wasn't necessarily looking for sex I was I suppose just rebelling and trying to be adult like.
He replied but kids these days are having sex younger, just look at them,look at the one in the tiny outfit. She'll be having sex tonight with the way she's carrying on.
I told him that's enough, that he looked like a sleezy man oogling.
He replied oh to be back that age again. I'd love to meet her out. Imagine the fun.
I was appalled by two things. One him visioning and two saying it in front of me.
Is this normal? I was disgusted and chose to say nothing for the rest of the evening. But then I think what if middle aged men say these things in their head. He's stupid/honest enough to say it out to me.
Now I'm thinking I am with a sleezy middle aged man and worries me that he would think like that.

Spooky! Even using another Halloween nickname.

And yes, what is that all about? I remember at school some of the more Neanderthal sporty boys getting a porn film to watch together on a lads' night in. Porn use aside, no one even questioned the bizarre communal aspect of this. Always found it baffling myself.

Indeed

happyhalloween/cloggal. if you are insinuating that I bumpted or contributed to any other forum then back off right now. You have too much time on your hands to be thinking that deep.
I shall not be contributing to any other forum here after this one.

I insinuated nothing of the sort. Some randommer, very quickly deleted, bumped the thread.

What is wrong with you ?

Then what was your point to put it on this thread?

Read the thread.

typing I can see where your position and your thinking stem from. Your thinking sounds very much like my mothers, and the position I was brought up with. It's one that it took a long time for me to break free of. I'm not going to be hard on you because there was a time in my 20s and early 30s where I could have seen where everyone else was coming from, but I would have agreed with you.

I know that the thread has veered off into the realms of rape, and that's not really what you started off talking about, and it probably feels a bit excessive and overly dramatic to you. But it is where you end up if you take some of your comments and run with them/consider what they actually mean in the grand scheme of things. And it was kind of implied with all the comments about 'teasing' the hormonally charged boys...

When I was 17, I escaped an attempted rape, I told my mother. She blamed me. Not only on what I was wearing, but on the basis that that was what men are like and they can't help themselves and it was to be expected if I insisted on going out of the house alone and after dark (given that it gets dark in the winter at around 5pm, it's hard to see how to avoid that!)

The upshot was, though, that when I was actually raped about 4 years later, I didn't tell anyone. Because I felt ashamed that I must have brought it on myself. On reflection, I know that I didn't.

But that's a separate issue.

The bottom line is, that we are all, as humans, sexual beings. Our biological imperative is to reproduce. That requires sex. As such, we all experiment when young with what makes us attractive, with our newly emerging sexuality. And yes, we like it when we realise we've had that effect on somebody. Younger versions of our own species should not be criticised for being, well younger versions of our own species.

Now the reasons for this are twofold. It's partly because it confirms that we will be able to find a mate when we wish to, but it's also because we learn from a young age that, to be a successful woman in our society, is tied up in how attractive we are to men. And we understand that that 'attractiveness' has rather narrow parameters by and large.

So those young girls weren't to blame, they're already 'victims' of a society that only values them in terms of their sexual attractiveness. And they've already learnt that they have to look a certain way to be accepted. As they mature, they will learn different ways, but they are not there yet. They are at the beginning of their sexual journeys.

But in terms of your husband...

On a night out, adult men should think, "bless them! I remember being their age. They must be freezing like that!" and not, rub their thighs and fantasise (with their wives!!!) about how they'd like to fuck them.

I also went out on Saturday night and, whilst waiting for a taxi, my male friend and I were passed by a similar crowd. We saw them, we commented on how we always hoped (at 39 and 45) that no one fell over, or a fight didn't break out because we'd have to act as the responsible adults when we really just wanted to go home and drink tea. He said, "They must be bloody freezing" I said that they were young and wouldn't feel it. He said, "Yeah, and the alcohol will be keeping them warm" he recounted a story about his own daughter and then the moment passed and we talked about something else. He didn't once pass a 'comment' or gawp or ogle, or turn around for a second look. And he's a friend, he wasn't trying to impress me. He's just a decent person.

You angered people early on because a lot of the language you used was inflammatory and misogynistic. I get that you don't see that and it's sad because it just means that you're unable to see the damage it causes to think and speak like that. Let's just say that those girls did go out wanting to attract the attention of boys. The fact is, they will have wanted to attract the attention of other teenage boys, by and large, and not the attentions of a dirty minded middle aged man. When I was 17, I wanted 17-19 year olds to fancy me. If I'd actually thought for a second that 40something men were perving over me, I've have been disgusted.

I hope that makes sense and wasn't too disjointed or rambling...

Applauds

Applauds a bit longer

If op doesn't learn something from Folkgirl's very kind and reasoned essay (which is more than she deserves, IMO) then there is no hope for her

Thank you. (essay?! well I suppose it was a bit - fast typer, that's my defence )

I did just wonder if the OP had gone on the defensive to protect herself, though.

Her husband sounds like a complete dick generally and she's trying to find a way of making it all ok and, in order to do that, she's got to find somewhere else to lay the blame.

And also, I think the ideas/beliefs/language around this issue can be so ingrained that it is a concious effort to reject them and think differently.

I remember 'debating' with a friend when I was about 20 who took the "women should be able to wear what they want, the fault is with the men who assault them, not them" stance and this was nearly 20 years ago. Boy did I argue the counter point on that one!

What a woman wears actually has little bearing on whether she gets raped or not-that's just a fact, so whatever these girls wore would make no difference as rape is based on a man's sense of entitlement not the woman's clothing.

But the outrage here over a man merely looking at attractive young women-yes, 16-year-olds are young women NOT children- is just effing ridiculous.

Heterosexual men like looking at attractive young women; it is wholly natural and to suggest otherwise is bullshit. Most are sensible enough to confine it to just looking and would be scared s*itless if the fantasy turned to reality.

Nope, OP - was not insinuating that you'd bumped anything. Just commenting on the double coincidence of AF having had a post mentioned upthread bumped, and that it had been made at Halloween (nickname..)

Anyway. I tried to give you some benefit of the doubt upthread and now folkgirl has gone above and beyond with a very generous post you should really read and reflect on. Excellent post folkgirl

Yeah, he wasn't really just "looking" though, was he. He was talking about how he'd like to fuck them.

I've occasionally seen a teenage boy and thought he was a lovely looking boy, or acknowledged that a 20 year old is the type I'd have found attractive when I was younger. It's not the same as saying I want to fuck him though. Because I, categorically, wouldn't. The very thought of it is abhorrent.

Thank you, cloggal.

And a 20 year old is an adult! But far too young for me...

He wasn't just 'looking'. And '16 year olds dressed for a night out' could be anything really from 12-18. The reason he seems to feel entitled to make the comments , and the reason why is DP is excusing him, is their 'provocative' clothing. Not natural to me.

Folkgirl that was a brilliant, thoughtful and thought provoking post. I'm so sorry to hear of your past experiences.

I agree that the thinking and language around these issues takes conscious effort to unpick. I'd like all the young men and women whom I teach to read your post.

But ALL he is doing is looking and voicing his thoughts-at a base level, he may want to have sex with them, does it matter if he does want to?

The point is this: as long as he can separate his thoughts from his actual behaviour, what does it matter?

Or are we saying here that men are unthinking creatures who cannot separate fantasy from reality?

It's like this: fantasising looking and voicing comments NOT same as actual behaviour.

To suggest that somehow men are incapable of this distinction is basically saying they are animals.

And the rape issue is a red herring anyway as it is well-established that what a woman wears has little to do with the issue. A woman wearing a mini-skirt won't get raped if the man has no sense of entitlement over her body, sadly a woman wearing a burkha will get raped if trapped in a room with a man who has a sense of entitlement.

He views the girls and says they're out for a good night and laughs. He almost snapped his neck gawping. He replies "they'll be teasing the boys later in the nightclub. Just look at them,look at the one in the tiny outfit. She'll be having sex tonight with the way she's carrying on."

This is what is outrageous - don't pretend not to understand it.

Do you know, when DH and I see young teens dressed like this, he says, "won't be long til DD goes out like that..." ...or "they must be freezing..."
That is normal heterosexual middle aged male behavior.

In my opinion his comments demonstrated a sense of entitlement over the girl's body. I understand we are not the thought police (think I even said so in a previous post) but this went well beyond that for me. And that was what OP canvassed opinion on, although she seemed to want responses relating to how it was disrespectful to her which I think is where the confusion has arisen.

I don't really find what he said outrageous:just an observation and he is probably right when he says that they'll be teasing the boys (actually this is quite revealing as he is acknowledges that it is boys they will be going for not MEN like him) and yes, it's a fair bet to say a young girl will be looking out for sex with a young guy.

He may find them attractive, yes, but if that is all there is to it, so what?

Folkgirl excellent post, I hope the OP reads it.

Because, garbanzo he didn't say, "she's a pretty girl." and then reminisce about his own youth and invite the OP to do the same. He told his wife he wanted to fuck someone else and a 'woman' who was little more than a child. He highlighted one out of a group and sexualised her in a pretty unpleasant way. He was talking about her in a really disrespectful manner.

It's also a fair bet to say that that girl might be a virgin and not want to have sex with any boy that night, or any night soon. She might have wanted to have a night out with her friends before going home and putting on her jimjams and getting into bed under her Hello Kitty duvet cover that she's grown out of, but isn't quite motivated to change yet. She might have been 'playing' at being a sexy young woman. She might have been 14 (the OP doesn't know she was 16). She might be vulnerable and have parents who haven't provided her with adequate boundaries and she might be putting herself in risky situations because she hasn't learnt to protect herself yet. She might... well, she might a number of things.

The fact is that we, as a society, have a collective responsibility for the welfare of our young people. There's a reason that our safeguarding responsibilities extend to young people up to the age of 18 and don't stop once they reach the age of consent at 16. As someone else said, at 16 they aren't children, they are young women. There's truth in that, but they're not yet adults either and children and young people rely on adults to know better and not to sexualise them in this way.

The OP's husband might not have had any direct impact on this particular girls, or any of her group of friends, but his attitude, and the same attitude in others, indirectly impacts on them everyday.

A middle aged man should feel protective towards a group of girls this age, not tell his wife he wants to fuck them.

Thank you, emotion

"teasing the boys" what? you mean as is "prick teasing"? as in "they'll be getting what they deserve". That kind of teasing?