Fathers and sons

[Bells2]

Just wondered how others cope with partners who take risks with their small children that they find terrifying.. my husband is absolutely great with our 2 1/4 year old son and they often go off to the park and so on together. However, my idea of what is dangerous and his often differ sharply and I sometimes get very upset when I witness him doing something with our son which to my mind cold potentially lead to a nasty accident. I just don't think he is very good at anticipating possble outcomes of situations and a number of times, I have been reduced to tears over this.

My husband is very apologetic when he sees how upset I am and also, on a few occassions when he has realised the full potential implications of various activities but nonethless I find it difficult to know how to react. I am reluctant to turn into a constant nagging spoilsport but equally, I think I need to be able to relax and not constantly worry that our son isn't going to be put in mortal danger on a regular basis.

Tigermoth, I totally agree with your response to Mrs Hudson's comments on mothers who have a professional job outside of the home.

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Wow Bloss - you certainly know your stuff! It says something about religion when a convert knows more than those brought up in the faith! I pledge to do more research on my own faith in the future!
Can I ask you which particular faith you belong to? Or would you rather not say? I'm just curious about which one you decided was right for you.

Bloss, like many others I am finding your postings here absorbing and thought-provoking.
In your reply to my point about the cultural context of St Paul and the bible generally, you say that St Paul bases his views about female leadership in the church and the role of husbands and wives in marriage "on the order that God established in creation". I presume you are referring to the story of The Creation in Genesis, and I was wondering where you stand on Darwinism?
You seem to accept the Bible as being literally God's word, and true, whereas I regard much of it, and especially the Old Testament, to be stories devised as teaching aids or explanations of things for which at that time there was no scientific understanding. I don't actually regard St Paul as misogynist. I think his views are understandable, when you look at the culture he came from. If you live in a patriarchal society, the analogy of the relationship between Christ and the Church is a perfect one to describe marriage. It just doesn't work so well in Western society at the start of the third millennium, and I think it is anachronistic to base a modern marriage on these precepts. I don't intend to insult you or belittle your views, indeed I respect your evident knowledge on the subject of your beliefs. You say you have struggled with this, and I'm not surprised.
I prefer to base all my relationships on Jesus' injunction that "you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength and all your mind, and love your neighbour as you love yourself". What an ideal to strive for!

Hello again, Bloss. What a huge, impassioned post. A few things I picked up on after a first read:

1)"Wishy-washy "be nice to each other" kinds of stuff"- that church sounds right up my street!

2. Thanks for the book recommendations. I'll try and check some of these out. They sound interesting.

3)A leap over one's rationality sounds a bit uncomfortable! I don't personally know if religious belief REQUIRES a leap of faith- it's just that some of the religious people in my life have mentioned this. I just wondered if you were saying something similar when you wrote about ultimately coming to "trust" in God in a way that was consistent with, but distinct from, your rational arguments for the historicity of the bible- I think you said it was arational?

4. I would personally have to overcome the fact that I'm an atheist and skeptical about the moral absolutes presented as truth by the bible. I don't mean by this that I don't believe in moral imperatives. I do. I'm not a moral relativist but I do think that circumstances- personal, social and societal- have a bearing on how people behave and how they OUGHT to behave. (e.g. there may be a moral imperative TO steal to feed your starving children. Or take the religious command to honour one's parents- at present this is very pertinent to the "nosy workmates" thread on mumsnet- it seems to throw up some problems for a few of the people on that thread who are battling to come to terms with some horrendous experiences at the hands of close relatives.) I don't think I'm a very spiritual person and I can't really conceive of my having personal relationship with God so tend to think of Christianity and other religions in terms of whether the moral code is an acceptable/agreeable one to me. I'm not claiming knowledge in depth or breadth here. These are just my thoughts based on the small amount of Christian teaching I've come across. I know this is unsatisfactory in terms of discussing Christian belief.

5. How horrible and tragic about the honeymoon couple and the shark. I'm afraid I didn't like what the man at your church preached about this. It sounds to me like it was an incredibly brave act of love on the husband's part. But what if it had happened the other way round? Would the husband be considered culpable for failing to lay down his life for his wife? Would the wife have done the wrong thing? That seems the implication of considering his act as a routine expectation of a Christian husband rather than as an awesome, wonderful expression of bravery and love. I hope the wife is as well as can be expected and that she's getting lots of support. It's such a terribly sad thing to happen.

6. I personally would have problems with submission to anyone, male or female, on more than an ad hoc basis. I'm perfectly prepared to submit to people I love and respect on various issues, if I believe it's right or practical or in some other way worthwhile to do so. But I don't find blanket submission to anyone, even as a theoretical expression of different but equal roles, an attractive proposition at all!

How's Australia by the way? And is everything going well with hatching no.2? Was the Houdini Howard election interesting?

Bloss, What a lot to think about!

Going back to the thorny subject of equality in marriage, I think you have given a very credible description of your position, and how you came to it. As I read your answer a number of questions came into my mind:

So what happens if a husband abuses his power re: servant leadership and does not put your needs first? Hopefully, if you choose your husband wisely, this will not happpen, but no one's perfect. Surely sometimes he will not seem to be the good, wise, caring man you married. Who then decides whether he is fulfilling his role? If he alone decides, then surely there is no true equality?

And re: putting the wife't needs first: what happens if your husband's views of what you need conflict with your own? ie you're tired and stressed. You think you need a holiday away from the children - and a stiff drink! He thinks you need counselling and his mother to visit and help you with childcare. Who decides what you really need? Is this a joint decision? if not, and one person has the power to decide on the wife's needs, then how can equality exist?

Are the two marriage roles: servant leader/submission - gender based? Can they be temporarily or permanently reversed according to situation or need?

I would find it very difficult to accept that my role in a marrige has been predetermined by a third entity - God. I can understand how, as a christian, you can follow certain ground rules in your marriage, as Mooma states, like 'do as you would be done by'.

If you accept the servant leadership/ submission idea, is there also a danger that you and your husband could interpret this in a slightly different way? I suppose you have to talk long and hard about this before you marry and hope that over the years, neither of you change your mind. I suppose that you cannot live with your intended first and have a trial marriage either.

Anyway, I am rambling. Don't have to reply to any of the above, unless you want to - I am thinking out loud.

I admire your approach to christianity, Bloss, and appreciate that you are taking the time to explain it. It is very, very interesting. It would be someone like you - not the poeple who took communion in your choir - who would convert me from a wishy washy sort of christian/humanist to a 'real christian' with a firm belief.

Thanks!

Bloss, I have been fascinated by your posts, and overwhelmed by your theological knowledge. I am not a christian, however I find your account of your conversion and ongoing struggles with some aspects of christian teaching very thought provoking. I agree with Mooma's view that the bible needs to be viewed within it's historical context.Mrs Hudson pointed out that there are many strong women depicted in the bible, and observed that their strength lay in their maternal role, which they did not question. But at that time womens lives and expectations were much more limited than those we experience today.(as indeed were most mens). Surely those women, living today, would have very different roles.
I am still struggling with the notion of servant leadership and submission, but will continue to read your explanations with interest. How do children fit into the expectation that a man should lay down his life for his wife? In a situation where he could save only his wife or his child, what should he do? I am genuinely interested, as I remember some years ago being horrified by a colleague who said that she and her husband had agreed that in this situation they would save one another. I would be distraught if dh saved me before our children, and equally I would leave him to do what he could to save himself. But what does the church teach?
Like Mooma, I wonder how you approach areas wher the teachings of the church seem irreconcilable (sp?)with scientific knowledge e.g. Creation v. evolution.
I heard a brief extract from an interview with John McCarthy on the radio, in which he spoke about going in search of evidence to prove the historical authenticity of the bible. He went as a committed christian, but it would seem that he had difficulty finding the proof he expected. The one example I heard was that of Jericho, where the remains of a great wall were found to have fallen, and his disappointment that the dates did not tally. I presume there is a book and/or t.v. series, both of which I will now be looking out for with interest.
What are your views on female clergy?
This thread could run and run! Thank you Bloss for your thoughtful postings.

Bloss I'd definitely be interested in where to get hold of some decent books. However my faith is definitely of the wishy washy type - if we all followed Christ's teaching about loving our neighbour as ourself then we wouldn't be in the mess we are in now.

I've chosen the church I attend after visiting all of those within 5 miles. The one I go to is 7 miles away and is the most welcoming to children. We were made to feel distinctly unwelcome in some of the churches - the one with the born again Christian for a vicar was the worst. I suspect that might be the type you'd recommend but it would drive me away from the church totally.

Since my husband is agnostic he would not recognise servant leadershp. I could not consider divorcing him since Christ's teaching on that was all too clear - am I still required to submit to him? We didn't marry in church.

Bloss, can I echo what has already been said about your knowledge of scripture and theology - I come from a Christian background and sometimes feel my life as a Christian has progressed slower than a snail's pace.
I hope this is not too personal a question, I'm being very nosey I know so please ignore it if it is, but you say you have been with your dh for 8 years, most of them as a Christian, and I'm assuming your dh is too. Did you marry as non-Christians? I know a lot of couples where the wife has converted after marriage and it has been such a difficult struggle in the marriage when the husband was not a believer.
I hope you enjoy the book, BTW. It is one of my favourites, but I have always been a fan of all things Lewis

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Hello,

Bloss and Lisav, my post earlier on was only to provoke thought, not intended to condemn anyone, regardless of their religious leanings, I'm sorry if you thought I was condemning the Catholic lady, this was not my intention, especially as I started life as a Catholic myself. I went through my own religious/spiritual search and am quite happy where I am now in this process. I take my children to church (protestant)on a regular basis. I believe (and this is my interpretation) that all religions can be summed up in "love thy neighbour as thy self", or to harm none, whatever you do and this I try to live as far as possible, in as much as I try to be as positive in my thoughts and actions as possible. Loving one's neighbour starts in one's thoughts.

Sorry, don't have time to write more, this is my lunch-break!

How anyone can post a thread as spiritual, theological and as long as that at 9AM beats me!

What's your secret Bloss? I can't even decide what to have for breakfast at that time in the morning!

By the way Bloss, my b-i-l is getting along just fine now, he won't be having open heart surgery, and although the abnormality will still be there, they are hoping it will not have a major impact on his life. He is hoping to go back to work soon, so thanks for your prayers.

77 pages! Printed out this whole thread in my lunchhour. A bit of light reading for the weekend....

Bloss, thanks so much for your reply. I have read through it but need time to take it in properly. Have a good weekend!