Fathers and sons

[Bells2]

Just wondered how others cope with partners who take risks with their small children that they find terrifying.. my husband is absolutely great with our 2 1/4 year old son and they often go off to the park and so on together. However, my idea of what is dangerous and his often differ sharply and I sometimes get very upset when I witness him doing something with our son which to my mind cold potentially lead to a nasty accident. I just don't think he is very good at anticipating possble outcomes of situations and a number of times, I have been reduced to tears over this.

My husband is very apologetic when he sees how upset I am and also, on a few occassions when he has realised the full potential implications of various activities but nonethless I find it difficult to know how to react. I am reluctant to turn into a constant nagging spoilsport but equally, I think I need to be able to relax and not constantly worry that our son isn't going to be put in mortal danger on a regular basis.

Heatherking how about looking at it in very crude economic terms and consider your own children's earning potential, then you could argue that there is a very fair comparison to be made indeed.
Also, if you come from the viewpoint that people are more important than things or jobs, then again your efforts should be seen as equal to those of your husband.

Oh puhlease Mooma - I hardly think you can equate the horrific regime under which Afghan women are brutalised and abused to me wishing day to day life wasn't so stressful.

HELLO ... WE LIVE IN BRITAIN - NOT AFGHANISTAN.
Lighten up a little will you.

Firstly, apologies to Bells et al, we seem to have hijacked your discussion about dads, although this clearly grew out of it.
Melsj, your plea that we should "bring back pinnies" may have been made in a light-hearted manner, but I came across it directly after reading the article in the Times online, and it jarred, in the light of attempts that are still made in some parts of the world, to deny women opportunity and choice in their lives.

The article quotes aid workers in Kabul, who claim that "the rate of depression for women, particularly educated women who are no longer allowed to work or leave their homes, is so widespread that it has reached emergency levels."

Of course, I am not suggesting that living in Britain can be compared to life in Afghanistan, but I don't think the problems that men and women experience, in attempting to balance work/home commitments, will be obviated by returning to rigid gender roles. They didn't lead to great happiness for most women in the first place, that's why things had to change.

Finally, I wasn't trying to be 'heavy'; your posting provoked a thought, and I felt this was a good forum to discuss it.

You're entitled to your views Melsj but please don't say things like "Bring back pinnies - we'd all be so much happier". On no we wouldn't!.

I think Mooma's point is a valid one. Being denied choice and freedom in a society is an important issue. To you being slotted in to a pre-determined role solely on the basis of our sex might be just dandy - but for many of us it would be utterly intolerable.

No need to apologise Mooma - this is a subject close to my own heart!!. I have absolutely no problem whatsoever if people choose to adopt gender specific roles but when they start suggesting they should be applied across society as a whole I get very nervous indeed...

What's wrong with pinnies? I agree with most of what HeatherKing and Melsj are saying, I do not think that my role as housewife and mother can possibly equate to that of my husband who works long hours so that we can have roast beef on a Sunday! Surely it isn't too much for him to expect his tea on the table after a hard day earning our money?
Feminism is all very well in it's place but I'm sure I'm not alone in wishing that sometimes gender roles could be brought back without any of the guilt that seems to accompany them.
The Bible maintains that a wife is there to obey her husband and he should treat her with respect, if that were followed I am sure that society would not have half the problems it faces now.

Sorry, off topic. Melsj - I have to say I'm very happy in my pinny! I worked for many years and earned a lot of money but I have never felt so fulfilled as when I've spent a lovely domestic day with my dd. But if I'd never had the chance to work I don't expect I would now enjoy being at home so much, so I guess its swings and roundabouts.

Mrshudson - are you Scummymummy in disguise by any chance???!!

I chose to stay at home. I did not fill out a graduate application form, or take special courses at Uni'. I chose to stay at home because I feel it is the best course of action for my children.

Other people may have different opinions, work in different ways and be equally successful.

Can someone tell me what a 'scrummymummy' is please?

MrsHudson, with respect - this is a wind-up, isn't it?

I've tried being at home all the time and I've tried working and I know which is easier (although not necessarily more rewarding). My husband works hard, and is capable of earning more than me, so his job takes priority over mine for practical reasons. However, he also spends his day dealing with people who are capable of rational thought, and he gets a lunch hour, and he gets to go to the loo alone. On the days that I am home I do a full time job of child care, plus house stuff (much of which I wouldn't expect a nanny to do) and dh appreciates that I have spent a day working too, and that without me doing that he wouldn't be able to do what he does. So on balance we both appreciate what the other does and take it equally seriously.

I have just read further down the list of postings, and I have noticed that the argument regarding the freedom of women to stay at home seems to feature a certain level of anti-male venom.

It reminds me of a revisionist writing of a set of nursery rhymes by Angela Carter, in which, for example, the mother of beauty storms into the castle of the beast and blows him away with a shotgun. I wonder what the group feels about this sort of reading. Am I lacking the necessary resentment to be a housewife?

why is it that as soon as someone says something that isn't politically correct you jump to the conclusion that she's just winding you up?
I think half of you would take greater exception to someone who said they had vowed to obey their husband during their marriage ceremony than you would to a woman who admitted being an alcoholic, drug taking husband-batterer (and yes - they do exist)

Oh god, can I switch sides please? I don't want to be on the stay at home mums side anymore, its frightening.

No way, Enid! I am most definitely not Mrshudson- I'm not the pinny type at all- would make me look dumpy and matronly beyond my years, I fear! Though I'm sure they can look lovely on some people... I'm not the rigid gender roles type, either.
I'm posting as Okapi now- thanks for your gardening advice btw!

Someone else thought you were Scrummy Scummy. I dont mind staying at home at all. My husband can earn a good wage in his line of work and has wanted nothing more than me to be at home to bring up our son. We both feel it is important in his early years to have me at home. Saying that I do do a part time job but he does come with me, so I do a little bit.

Okapi - sorry, it was just that it was such a 'scummymummy' type wind-up posting. I miss 'scummymummy', she was always a bit of a star in our house after the hassle she gave A Karmel!! But I'm sure you are just as fun Okapi - hows the poor japonica?

Anti-men - nothing could be further from the truth. I just get worried when people start talking about "expecting" things from one or other partner. My husband doesn't work to put food on our table, he works because he wants a career and a challenge and financial reward for what he does well. The food on the table thing is secondary.
Of course we should all be free to do what we want to do & if someone enjoys providing their partner "with a certain level of service" on their return home, then fair enough, but for other people that is simply not the way a partnership works.
I'm not particularly feminist either but I find seeing the world in gender specific terms can be limiting and force people into roles that they may not be happy with.

I didn't mean to criticize anyones values or life choice, it's just that I don't like it when people seem to not put a high enough value on what stay-at-home mums do. I don't feel I 'owe' my husband a certain level of service because he works hard for us - I work hard for us too, because what I do for the children is equally important and is just as hard as what he does at work. Just because he earns money for it doesn't make it more important. If he has a hard day I'll try to pamper him a bit, and I expect him to return the favour when I've had a tough day.

Well said Azzie!

Sorry, I just can't be doing with all this talk of obeying and expecting. Surely 'respect' is a better term to use regarding an equal and adult relationship?

Just for the record, we have two pinnies in our kitchen, both green striped butchers-style aprons, sadly not waterproof, but our older son has a nice plastic Bovril signed one. I saw a great Bob the Builder one for the youngest at the ELC today.

Melsj, if one vowed to obey one's husband, one could very easily end up as an alcoholic, drug-taking husband batterer, so you could be both PC and not. (joke!)

You can't have it both ways, pinny brigade. You say that taking care of your young children is a vital role, which is important enough to forgo career advancement for yourself, but then you say it can't possibly equate with the financially well-rewarded efforts of your partner. In one breath you say it's essential, and yet secondary. Surely you should see the immense value of the role you play. It's not lesser, it's different.

I agree with Azzie and Tigermoth, it's not about whose role is the most important or demanding, but rather that you both pull your weight, appreciate each others efforts and work together to support the family.

Sorry you all thought I was a wind-up, I can assure you that I am not. I am new to this site and finding it very interesting.

Of course I see my role as essential. Before I had children my job was equal to my husband's in terms of pay and opportunity, but we felt that it was more natural that I should forsake my career for the children. It is the mother's natural role surely? I am not saying that our roles are not equal, just dictated somewhat by gender. Men make just as good parents but where there is a choice, I feel that mother's really should be the ones to stay at home if possible as we are genetically geared up to raising a family, whereas the male has always been the "hunter-gatherer". Do you see what I mean?

I too read Angela Carter and found the 'Nursery Rhymes' to be quite aggressively feminist. Do people not think that the tide of feminism is turning against man in quite an overwhelming way?

Message withdrawn

Traditional gender roles may lead to a more harmonious family life, but they can also lead to stress and depression, for both sexes. The breadwinner has the sole burden of bringing home financial wherewithal, whilst carer can find sole charge of small children to be unstimulating. (You only need to read some of the threads on this site about parenting and depression to get a picture of this).

Mrshudson, it's good that you feel your role equals that of your husband, but others here have stated that looking after the children 'cannot possibly equate' to their partner's breadwinning role. They might have been talking in purely financial terms, but I feel it denigrates the carer's role, only to see it in these terms.

Also, as Tigermoth said, I think that notions of obeying and gender-based expectations are not really going to advance the cause of family life. What happens if the sole breadwinner is suddenly made redundant, or falls ill (or runs off with the barmaid!)? All sorts of unexpected things happen in life, and we need to be open-minded and flexible to deal with them. I love and respect my husband, he accords me the same in return, and decisions and problems are faced jointly.

Mrshudson, I take your point about feminism turning against men, but there are always extremes of viewpoints, and I think Angela Carter is trying to shake up preconceptions and make children realise things are not always cosy and straightforward.

BTW, statistically, families with traditional gender roles, ie working dad and stay-at-home mum, are now in a minority.

Out of interest, Heatherking, Melsj et al, do you have daughters and if so, are you bringing them up to see their destiny as providing their husbands with a certain level of "service" etc etc?