Alcohol wins

[mummaduke]

I've posted here before about DH's alcoholic tendencies... I've been advised to seek al anon, I've been advised to LTB... But tonight, I genuinely need to know if I'm over reacting or if there's a real and serious problem here that I was right to start a huge fight about.

Basically, found out yesterday that we are expecting DC2 in early June. This is a huge shock. We literally had sex once in the last 3 months. While far far sooner than expected, we're both thrilled. However, it's still come as a huge shock, and it hasn't sank in at all. I'm still very much trying to get my head around it and I'm feeling extremely emotional.

So, DH went to work today, and called me from a client lunch around 4, saying he was out drinking wine, eating lobster etc. I asked him at that point to please curb the booze, I really needed him to be sober tonight. He also had a friends birthday drinks to stop at on the way home.

Low and behold, he rocks up at 9.30, pissed as a fart (but denying he's that bad).

I have hit the roof. I've literally gone ape shit. This is all in the bigger context of many many many previous drink related arguments... Many of which happened the last time I was pregnant. He is not a good, or happy drunk. He becomes verbally abusive. He knows this and has admitted to having a problem.

Am I in the wrong? Should I be more tolerant? He has tonight accused me of being controlling, and told me I perhaps need to find someone who doesn't want to have a social life. He's said he's clearly bit the right man for me. He's twisting this and making it my problem.

I am at a loss. I was so hurt that he couldn't stay sober for me, that I told him I'm questioning whether I even want this baby with him. He's hit the roof in response, and is refusing to talk to me.

It's a stand off. How can I possibly get this back on track?

He's accusing you of curbing his social life. When what you are doing is asking him to curb the drinking. He has a serious problem and is turning this onto you. It is completely possible to avoid booze and socialise.
He might have 'admitted' he has a problem but he hasn't accepted this. He is blaming you. That will only change if he wants to.
Get him gone until he's dry.

Plus, I was reading some recent research. Do not excuse drunken behaviour as 'the drink talking'. No. He is talking, the booze does not make someone behave out of character it is an excuse. It's not about lower inhibitions decisions are still made by the brain, society comes up with 'oh they were drunk' and people believe they'll get 'away' with it.

Thanks everyone for all your comments. The problem is also that I love him very much, and when not drunk, he is a great husband and father.

I want us to stay together. Perhaps I do need al anon. I know I've said is consider it before, but I am actively going to seek them out now.

Has anyone ever shown a husband or partner the feedback they've had on mumsnet? Or is that just asking for more trouble?

I feel like I need to write him a letter. If it's written down, there's no shouting, I can put my point across and he might understand it better.

I'm doubtful though. Even this morning, he's arguing he wasn't 'that drunk' and 'didn't deserve' the treatment I gave him.

How can I possibly get this back on track?

Why do you think you can? Or that this is up to you?

You can't make someone who has promised not to drink not drink. That's his choice.

Did you seek out Al-Anon after you were last advised? You need to understand the futility of statements like this: I was so hurt that he couldn't stay sober for me. You can't control what he does, and he can only make changes in his relationship with alcohol for himself. This is his choice.

Al Anon can help you detach from the problem drinker and make better choices for yourself and your children.

I would also recommend Al anon. They really helped my family when we dealt with an alcoholic. We stopped the arguments and the ultimatums and the pleading. Defined what was acceptable and stuck to it.

"Our" alcoholic hit rock bottom, made their own independent decision to change and is now 2 years + alcohol free. They really only made progress when we completely detached from them.

They're back in the family again and much loved.

Ipaddy, thank you for the positivity, I'm going to look up al anon today, but actually get some help from them this time.

You're all right, I know trying to reason with him when drunk is futile. I think it probably makes it worse. I'm fuelling the drama. I need to detach and show him what life will be like if he carries on hurting me through his drinking.

You have downplayed this at great cost to yourself and there is no probably re you needing Al-anon now; you certainly need to attend those meetings asap.

You may love him but he loves alcohol more than you. Alcohol is a cruel mistress.

How often is he really stone cold sober; he is probably drunk most of the time now and his tolerance to alcohol is very high.

I still wonder if you grew up in a household with not too dissimilar problems.

What do you think any child seeing all this would be learning about relationships here?.

When he is not drunk he is still not either a great dad or husband. Women tend to write such comments as well when they have nothing else positive to write about their man. As is indeed the case here.

You may want you and he to stay together but why exactly?. What is in this relationship for you?. Codependency often features in relationships where alcohol is a problem and I would suggest you read up on that and the sunken costs fallacy. You are falling into both those traps.

Writing him a letter is a waste of time; he will blame you still. Do not show him either any of your MN postings; again you need an outlet and showing him that will block that. He will likely dismiss us as a lot of man hating anti drinkers.

His words towards you this morning are typical of alcoholics and smack also of denial (also something that alcoholics are mired in).

It's not lack of understanding or poor communication that gets you into this situation. He understands that you're pissed off with his behaviour well enough. The problem is lack of personal motivation to behave any differently. And with good reason if you think about it. He drinks... there's a bit of yelling... he denies he has a problem..... nothing bad happens to him.

No incentive.

I've been where you are now and recognise that 'he's nice when he's not drunk' optimism, sadly. It'll eat a big hole in your life and you'll end up in exactly the same place ten years from now realising it was all a big waste of time.

mummaduke

You being around him at all fuels this even further. He should now leave the marital home.

There is no bright future for you at all if you choose to stay with this man; he will simply drag you and your children down with him.

Arrange a babysitter to cover childcare when you go to Al-Anon. It would be in character for a drinker to sabotage you attending by getting home from work too late.

I'm sorry that you've been let down again. It's a scenario I understand only too well.

Sadly unless he decides to stop or control his drinking then you will be let down again and again.

My H had two alcoholic parents, both died due to drink. He had a very unhealthy attitude to drinking and couldn't see that it was a problem. It all changed because he wanted it to and because I told him I would leave if he didn't choose. He made the decision to change but if he hadn't I would have walked away. Six years now since that and I no longer have to worry at social occasions or hear him crashing about drunk in the night.

You have to think of you and your children ( congratulations on pregnancy) and what you can tolerate. Sometimes the only choice is to leave.

Dont make the mistake of thinking the baby will change him

If you re read your post of 9 47 you'll recognise that your thinking is still all about "how can I make him see the truth".

Please try and concentrate on YOU and not on him. This is really the only way.

Maybe you have to learn it yourself, but honestly, the only way you will achieve what you want is by changing how you deal with it - it is futile to try and lead him the right way.

Please trust the very very similar experiences of the many on this thread. Sadly alcohol has very consistent effect on both those who drink it and those who don't. If you don't like that effect then you can change the way you react, but you can't save him. He can do that. Give him that responsibility.

I feel like I need to write him a letter. If it's written down, there's no shouting, I can put my point across and he might understand it better

No

You are falling int tht trap of thinking that there is a magic combination of words that will make him see how much his behaviour hurts. We have an alcoholic in the family, I learned the answer to this one. Your DH knows damn well how much his drinking hurts you.

But he cares more about having a drink. And will twist any twinge of conscience he feels about your hurt into resentment for spoiling his fun.

He won't understand any better if it's written.

The only thing that will get him to stop is him wanting to. He doesn't want to. So now what will you do?

I did exactly what you are thinking of doing, i stuck by, i wanted the proper family etc and eventually it eats away at your very being. I wish i had walked away when pregnant and saved myself some humiliation.

Very happy to post positive stories. Alcoholics can and do recover. But they have to own their own recovery. We found that by trying to help we were in fact compounding the problem.

The alcoholic in our family turned themselves round after 15 years of problem drinking. But, they moved out of the family home for 6 months and we didn't involve themselves in their recovery in any way apart to congratulate them as each milestone was passed.

Please don't see going to Al-anon / seeking other help as "defeat" or a sign of weakness. There is shame and humiliation around alcoholism, but it's theirs, not yours.

I have got my adult son living wih me who is an active alcoholic. There are things about how he came to live with me that I am wrestling with, but why I wanted to post was to echo what other people are saying.

It's been an eye-opener to go to Al-Anon and find out what a script the alcoholic and the familes follow. There are all sorts of leaflets about it and my favourite at the moment is 'Alcoholism - a Merry-Go-Round Named Denial'.

I thought I was helping him and now it's going to be hard to get him to leave. I've (his ex too) raged, pleaded, begged, reasoned, been patient - all makes no difference. The alcohol always wins. He's now a wreck with nothing, not eating, spending 23 and a half hours a day in bed.

I believe that it is a disease, not everyone does, but what I would say is protect your children, get away from it, normal life can't happen around alcoholism and it gets a lot worse before it (ever) gets better.

It's shocking to realise but the alcohol comes first, before children, sanity, everything.

Hi mammaduke.
I was in a relationship with an alcoholic for 11 years. We have 3 dcs together. I threw him out over a year ago ( best decision i ever made). Abt a year before we split, i realised this is wrong and i had counselling for myself for that year. The counselling made me open my eyes.
He is still drinking btw, he lost his home, relationship and only sees ourdcs once a month. They never change for anybody. I like you bigged and pleaded and screamed and cried. He didnt care. Loads of times he would promise not to drink and im not joking an hour later he'd be saying "im just goiin up town for an hour". Which was code for the pub. He destroyed family occasions and everyday life as well. Til i put a stop to it by throwing him out for good and having a life now with clear boundaries for him if he wants to be part of his kids lives.
I see a lot of myself in ur posts.
I wish u all the best.

I think the OP's problem is that the DH is not a 'traditional drunk'. They are not spending 23 hours a day in bed, acting violently, blowing the housekeeping at the pub, behaving aggressively or similar. They are functioning reasonably normally most of the time, holding down a job, etc. They're only behaving the way a lot of people in their teens and early twenties do - after all. That'll be what he's saying to you... 'just enjoying myself', 'I'm entitled to relax', 'just being sociable'.

UK culture being what it is, a lot of that is true. Trouble is that there is a point where everyone else stops the binge-drinking, staggering home late, useless for most of the weekend thing and grows up, but a man like this doesn't. There they are age 30+, 40+ or 50+ and they've become a figure of fun to the work colleagues they're drinking with and don't know it. 'Look at old Pearson... always there propping up the bar... what a loser'. They lose respect at home because they are acting irresponsibly and constantly breaking promises. People like the OP keep thinking that, if they give it some time, the person will eventually grow up of their own accord.

They don't.

Unless he decides to change, you don't stand a chance in hell and will do serious damage to your DCs if you try to find him some redeeming qualities. My dad was/is an alcoholic. Never saw any reason to change despite all of us pleading with him, cutting him off, putting us in danger with his drink driving etc etc Don't do this to your children. You would become directly responsible for their emotional suffering and possibly put them in physical danger by allowing them access to a drunk parent. Let it go and give yourself a real chance at happiness.

I have a good friend who likes to get wasted every weekend. His missis knew he was like this before she married him yet now they are married she is trying to change him. Personally i think this is grossly unfair - on him. Why the hell should he stop doing something he enjoys? She knew the score, and probably thought he would change. He hasnt and he never will. Is he an alcoholic? Maybe, but personally i think that is such a subjective term and im not sure putting labels on people helps anybody. My point? You knew the score with this guy from the start yet twice have got pregnent to him. Stop trying to control his life and change him. If you dont like his drinking - which clearly is an integral part his personality - then put him out of his misery and leave instead of whining about it constantly. If were him i would be outta there like a shot. Sorry.

his drinking ... clearly is an integral part his personality

God how sad it is that people see problem drinking as an integral part of someone's personality.

As to why the hell he should change - because he's got children and now. He should never have had them if being an abusive drunk on a regular basis was so important to him.

Cogito is right, most people leave that pisshead behaviour behind in there 20's and move on. Drunks dont. My 46 year old ex didnt and probably never will. He never drank at home, was always in the pub having the craic, with the lads watching football or watever excuse it was. All his friends his age moved on, settled etc. Nd now hes with younger lads in there early 20's or younger and also with other total pissheads like himself. He has a job always did. Mind u got sacked a few times over the years. But instead of coming home after work went to the pub. And saturday was all day in the pub as was sundays. We never had family weekends. And ya he is a laughing stock. Sadly he thinks there laughing with him, "X is great craic". There not. Their laughing at him.
They never ever change and letters or chats dont work.

Ehriclovesthebhrothers' post is excellent and I agree with every word of it.

There is absolutely no point in doing anything whatsoever in the hope of changing anything at all about this man's drinking.
You can't, and he won't change one bit. In fact, there's every chance he'll get worse, especially once your new little one arrives.

If you don't leave now, you'll be leaving later, after going through maybe years of hell, stress and despair.
Save yourself the pain and get out very soon, because honestly it's the only solution.
I'm sure you DO love him, but you must learn to love yourself first, and your babies too. He only loves the bottle.

I'm so sorry.