End of my tether

[Foolishlady]

Ok I generally wouldn't post here cos (no offence ladies and I don't want to put everyone's back up before I start) I sometimes think the boards' sa but quick to recommend breaking up when children are involved - but I'm getting unhappier in my relationship and I don't know what to do. My dh is a good man but he's horrendous with money. We're about to get a house and found out yesterday that we may be refused a mortgage because he has let one of his loans go into serious default. I was printing out our joint savings account this morning and saw that despite jointly saving 800e a month we have less money than last year as he is constantly taking money out. He has more outgoings than me but he is really not on a bad salary at all. I just can't face constantly bailing him out, never being able to trust him with money..,this has been constant since we got married. I work hard and have been lucky enough for my parents to have given some money towards our deposit but some of this is going to be used to pay his debts - and this will never stop. I am maybe too far on the other side in terms of frugality, are we destined to be unhappy? But we have a lovely 21 month old who loves seeing his parents together. Relationship not amazing other than this, we still have a laugh together, but have v different family background and political views, and have had sex less than 10 times in 2.5 years. Some of this is him but recently I've just stopped fancying him. What do I do?

You know like there are sociopaths, psychopaths ... could there be moneypaths too? I think you are the golden goose OP - for now.

When you're broke and you and the kids are suffering and frightened about where and how you will live and he still has debts and a puppy dog look on his resistant-to-change face ... it will be awful.

Money-wise this man is a dead loss. I would separate as much as possible financially and maintain independence in this regard too.

When you aren't the golden goose any more do you think he will stay with you? Is there any love left in this relationship? I don't know if I could come back from the point of near-contempt that this must have taken you to. You might call think him exasperating. I think he's seriously, pathologically flawed.

Please don't go ahead with the new mortgage. It will be the ruin of you. Stick to something you alone can afford (to lose) because you are, for sure, gambling.

I guess he is a bit entitled. I just keep hoping his attitude will improve. My sister once asked why I didn't help out with his debts, and advised me to help pay off his credit card debts. So to persuade him to use some winnings he had to pay off credit card debt (he had maxed out his card) I said I would pay a matching amount - so 2000e. And then he just run the debt straight back up... God he's not going to change is he?

Nope. He won't be changing except for the worse. Your sister approved and even enhanced his claims on you by the sound of it. Start listening to your Self PLEASE! You know that you are being leeched off and he/they will drain you dry. Then he/they will find someone else to leech off. I'm saying he/they because I kind of think he and his father are a tag-team. Unconsciously working together. You are "the Mark".

"I guess he is a bit entitled"

You guess?!. Think that whole above sentence is an understatement on your part!.

"I just keep hoping his attitude will improve"
Ah, the sunken costs fallacy rears its ugly head again. He will NOT change his attitude; his parents own poor example is basically one that he is now following. You will continue to keep bashing your head against the wall here.

"My sister once asked why I didn't help out with his debts, and advised me to help pay off his credit card debts".

That was frankly dire advice from your sister; that was enabling behaviour and unsurprisingly he thereafter ran the debt back up again.

Enabling as in the above example and as you have done to date only gives you a false sense of control and helps no-one least of all him. If you do want to help him you're going to have to let him go. He does not want your "help".

a bit entitled

sorry, but I just blurted coffee at the screen when the import of that struck me. You are minimising what is actually financial abuse ... dear lady - save yourself in whatever way suits you!

You can't turn his attitude to money management round. You can only protect yourself. Wallypops gave excellent advice on ring-fencing your money in separate accounts. And I stand by my view that the only grounds on which you can stay together is if he hands over all management of finances to you.

If he's not willing to sign up to these conditions, and I would also insist that he pays back the money that he stole from your parents' fund, then it's over. He is going to lead you into financial disaster and bitter regrets. You need to learn to stand up to him. Ship up or ship out.

Just to point out he didn't steal from my parent's fund. That's in my own account to which he has no access. He only has access to the joint savings account which has less than a fifth of what is in my own account - he knows how much I have which is why he feels entitled - and I guess why my sister thought I should help him out. I guess there is an argument that in a marriage one party shouldn't have savings while the other has debt. But that experiment had the result I feared - I at least knew when he was maxed out he couldn't borrow more. I just can't be responsible for his debt but if I start making the repayments out of a joint account so I can have control I just feel like I'll be more enmeshed with them! But we are living in a shitty rented house, we're desperate to get our of it so as I said loathe to pull out. Although I'm subconsciously dragging my heels so much I think we're at risk of being gazumped

Also I need to get my son out of this area, it's a rough area. I need to get his name down for schools. The house we're buying is in a v good area, but to pull out and start again...well the quality of area we can afford and where my son will grow up is decreasing by the month

lady - might there be a place that would not be a shitty rental. A nice rental perhaps? Or a smaller mortgage. You are too busy jumping through hoops of normal dreams and hopes in the context of a relationship where you are going to be bankrupted if you are not ferocious and relentless about self-protection.

Is this how you see yourself living for the next how many years? What happened to being happy and enjoying the fruits of what sounds like a well-paid career?

I understand the urgency and drive in your situation. Is there any room for compromise, delay or change at all in this plan?

I don't think so. We've spent the last 2 years looking for a house, getting out bid over and over, underestimating how fast prices were rising. It was taking over every weekend, causing serious stress... I guess I'm hoping a bigger house will help as we can get our son out of room and maybe restart our sex life. God I just feel I have v little time to decide what to do. We've been keeping an eye on what's coming to market, there's feck all and what there is less than we could have afforded last year.

By all accounts the rental market is even more overheated than the sales market so wouldn't be too easy to find a nice place to rent either!

we have a lovely 21 month old who loves seeing his parents together

Apart from the fact that a 21mth old child is innately in love with Life and Joy (unless already shown otherwise) rather than specifically and cognitively recognising that m+f = happy family ... this is your personal projection.

Is this your only child? You're planning schools at this age? I mean, maybe in a happy on-going healthy relationship, maybe one would do that but in this CURRENT situation is it really the best priority?

But then I note you are hoping to relight the sexual flame too.

Where I am, it may already been too late for certain of the best, most in demand schools, children are enrolled at weeks or months old. Yes, it is a messed up place. But it certainly adds to the pressure to get settled.

And to give you an idea of the house prices I would say they're now about 40% higher than when we started looking a couple of years ago.

Honestly, I think you're fecking mental to even contemplate buying a property with this leach. Shit like this never gets better. How much worse does it have to get before you realise you're on a hiding to nothing?

It all seems to be moving too fast for comfort. Please pay attention to the "sunken costs fallacy" already mentioned. I fear you are hurtling towards disaster and would be much better off leaving and buying on your own. Or even leaving and renting on your own.

This is one mast I would definitely not be nailing my colours to. Ever.

You can't solve this by yourself. There is no solution unless he wants to solve it with you, which involves him taking responsibility for his debts, getting his spending under control and being open and honest about things instead of concealing them. It doesn't sound as if he is prepared to do any of that.

For example, when you gave him money to pay off his "maxed out" credit card, he should have cancelled the card so he couldn't run it up again, not just gone out and spent up to the limit again.

He tells you that he's dipped into the savings account for essentials and joint stuff which should have come out of the current account - if that were true, why didn't he just take it out of the current account?

Seriously, with all his subterfuge, this is not going to end well unless he is prepared to make significant changes in his habits right now. I see someone else said you taking charge of all finances is you acting as his mother, but as you don't want to leave him, I don't really see an alternative. As he is seemingly incapable of controlling himself, he needs to give you the control over all the money and you can give him spending money just like a child. Yes, he will resent it. So will you. But what's the alternative? If he's not willing to do this then really he's not willing to make the marriage work, is he?

As to the mortgage issue, I fear what will happen if you take out the mortgage without changing his habits. Sooner or later you will go to make a mortgage repayment and find your joint account is empty. So as not to default, you will pay it out of your own savings. He will apologise and say he had a car repair bill to pay. Maybe next month there will be enough in the account to pay the mortgage, but a few months later, there won't be. So you'll pay it from your personal account again... fast forward a few years, your personal account is empty, your mortgage is in arrears... oh but at least your son is in a good school; shame he's about to be homeless.

You may not like the advice you're getting on this thread, but you know it's right; that's why you're here.

I worry that might happen with the mortgage. Yet he has never missed a rent payment, bizarrely. I do appreciate the advice - it is preventing me minimising I think. Although sometimes maybe I wonder if it might be overly pessimistic, when I came on here in the first year of marriage when these problems first arose, I was warned not to have children with him, as he was a slacker who would become default primary carer who I would end up paying maintenance. Within 6 months of our son's birth he took a new harder duller job with longer hours and more money. Though he doesn't seem to realise it's all for nowt if he keeps frittering it away on nonsense and interest payments. I have to believe his heart is in the right place but his upbringing is just ingrained in him.

Thing is, it's his behaviour, not his heart, that will destroy you all. I agree with the scenario TeaForTara described. Was pretty much what I saw blowing in the wind if you continue this happy family fantasy. I even wondered about suggesting you stay married but live totally separately. That way you might stand a chance of keeping your independence safe for ds and also re-kindling some romance. I still wouldn't hold out any hope of him changing. Why would he want or need to?

If you do go into this you need a document to record your greater investment and to ensure that any profit is split in proportion to what you put in. And you should make it clear he cannot take equity out the property to pay off debts. But tbh I think things will be tough for you with this attitude.

He can't take money out of equity without my consent, not legally possible.

You keep justifying why you can't change things. Stop moaning then. Your husband is an idiot and not an equal adult in this "relationship." Your son doesn't care if you are married or not. He is a baby and doesn't know any different. He won't melt if you divorce but you might become a really unhappy person if you don't face up to the reality of your life if you stay married to this pillock who doesn't want to take responsibility for himself as he has his mummywife and everyone else - bank worker pushing things through as she knows and likes him? - wiping his arse for him.

He's an addict, surely. There's a 12 step programme for this, I'm sure of it - debtors anonymous? Google it?

Reading your thread is like slipping into a parralel universe - it's completely insane. What is insane - or one extra thing that is insane - is that you say your sister's husband is even worse than yours!! What the fuck is going on!? What are the chances of you both ending up with men like this?? It's like a twilight world.

Sorry to be so obviously shocked. I am not shocked per se by addiction. But I am shocked at the insanity if you being jerked around by it. You can't possibly stay married to this man, you must see that. It is also absurd that you state your son, who isn't even 2 yet, will 'take your husband's side'. Get a grip, woman. You are talking complete rubbish - I don't mean to be rude, just appalled you're believing/spouting such rubbish.

Are you/your family very wealthy, your husband/'s family relatively 'poor'? It could account for your husband having zero sense/wisdom/experience with money, expecting it to grow off trees, bedazzled by your wealth? Are you living in your husband's historically poor country? A country that is on the rise in some way eg it would make sense of extreme rise in house prices.

Anyway, sorry for conjecture. I suppose I'm desperately trying to make sense of this crazy story.

Though I'm sorry this 'story' is your life.

No my family is normal middle class but came into a large unexpected windfall last year. My dh's family is working class ( well his father came from middle class but went down) and he is by far the most successful. I suppose Ireland was historically poor...honestly believe my son will always favour his dad over me, he's much more personable I guess!