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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

"I'm good for just one kiss, not legendary love..."

77 replies

FolkGirl · 28/09/2014 23:36

I'm over halfway through my Sunday night bottle of wine. So please forgive me if this is utter rambling bollocks...

I'm watching I Married the Waiter for the second time this evening and I can't really get my head around it all.

I don't want to be unkind to anyone, or whatever, because this is more about how I feel about myself than what I think about them. But just to say that I don't understand how some of these women genuinely believe that these men love them.

I'm 39. Not unattractive. Not slim, but not overweight. And I don't believe that anyone would genuinely be interested in me. So where do these women get their confidence from?! It baffles me.

OP posts:
BatshitCrazyWoman · 29/09/2014 16:19

FolkGirl I've read your posts on the dating threads too, where you have said something similar to this thread.

I don't know the answer, but I do know how it feels - I have taken a long, long time to realise that I feel that I am 'not enough', and that is the root of all of the issues I've had in my life (EA marriage, a long standing phobia ...). I cannot see why anyone would want to be with me, because I am not good enough. With my head I know this isn't 'true', but the programming runs really deep, and no amount of people telling me that's nonsense is going to fix it.

I am more than a decade older than you, but I have had enough of it, and I am going back to my counsellor to work on myself again. I have time constraints too, and it's going to be hard to get there, but I need to do it.

I hope you can find some time to get some help.

StartinOverTheRainbow · 29/09/2014 16:54

Op, it sounds like you have wrapped yourself in this protective blanket of 'I know I'm right about this because it gives me a get-out clause so I don't really have to deal with it all'.
I'm no shrink, but it sounds like you are scared. That's ok. But what are you really scared of?

FolkGirl · 29/09/2014 18:19

Dragon I have done internet dating. I tried it for a few months last year. I was really honest in my profile and the pictures I used were 'honest'. I met up with about a dozen men and dated one for 10 months. But once we'd agreed we were in a relationship the doubts started for me. It's like I can believe someone might initially like me, but I don't think I have 'sustainability'. I think I've used the analogy before that it's like a match. You strike it and it burns very brightly for a second or so (during this time I am confident and believe it), but the flame quickly dies down and burns out completely. I don't think I have whatever it takes to make it last. But I don't know what that is, either.

I was the opposite to you, though! If anyone much younger than me contacted me I, like you, assumed they were looking for a hook up. I didn't feel flattered by it, though, I just assumed they thought I'd be sad and desperate enough to not realise this because of my age/lack of attractiveness and just felt a bit insulted.

temporaryusername Yes, I have always felt like it. I can see now that I wasn't as unattractive in my teens as I thought, and I certainly wasn't as fat (was quite skinny really Sad ) but, when I went to pubs, for example, I used to worry about getting up and going to the loo/bar in case I got stuck between/knocked over chairs with my great size. I know now that, objectively, I wasn't fat, but I was told I was "too big" by my mother and I always saw myself as such.

When I see your argument written down like that, of course it's hard to support my position. I suppose I just feel like I'm intrinsically 'not worth it'. But there are lots of threads on here where it is clear the woman is not loved by her partner but is asking why he is still there and they are often told that he's comfortable while he's getting his washing done and his meals cooked and that he's willing to put up with staying with someone he doesn't love to get these, and whatever other, needs met. I know that I assume that's the only reason someone would be with me.

I only feel confident and attractive when I'm single.

OP posts:
FolkGirl · 29/09/2014 18:40

aujordoui It does all feel quite 'new' at the moment. But I think I will get used to it. I don't know how to sort it out. I don't have time for counselling now that I work full time and am a LP. Tbh, I have a really full social life; a couple of brilliant hobbies that give me opportunities to get out and meet people. No one would ever know this is how I feel about myself. I'm confident, I can socialise easily (nowadays), I'm happy to put myself out and do stuff, but equally happy to be home alone bumbling about - I don't need to be involved in everything and quite often turn things down without regret. I'm in a couple of 'inner circles' of hobbies and things that I do and it's all great. Except for this.

Thank you, John. It is miserable. Or it was. It's less so now. It's just that what struck me about that programme last night was that those women didn't not doubt. They just believed. Someone upthread said they were deluded. But that's what I don't know. How would I know the difference between someone who was genuinely interested and someone who was just taking the piss and whether I was deluded or not? I wouldn't.

Morris I know it doesn't make sense. I can't really explain it. I was just told so often how shit I was and then it was reinforced by actions. It's just that when I think of being in a relationship, it feels like a nonsense. I was embarrassed to tell people I had a bf in case they disbelieved me or wondered what was wrong with him that I was the best he could do.

Batshit That's exactly where I am. Sad

Startin I don't know what I'm scared of. I'm scared of making myself vulnerable, I suppose. I'm scared of being made a fool of, by myself and others. I need to be perfect. I have impossibly high expectations of myself that I don't have of others.

I don't know.

OP posts:
neiljames77 · 29/09/2014 18:59

You've got yourself into a cycle of trying to prove that you're infallible. Trying to achieve perfection is an unreachable goal.

StartinOverTheRainbow · 29/09/2014 19:32

What were the relationship of your parents like? Of your dad and you? Or step-dad? We know your mum was impossible to please, she couldn't love you for who you were and so naturally couldn't teach you to love yourself. I wonder, what did your mum think of herself? What did she teach you about how she felt about herself?
Sorry, if I've missed this, but have you had any counselling?

BatshitCrazyWoman · 29/09/2014 19:53

But Folk the greatest thing about being human is that we have capacity to change and to learn - I get what you're saying about not having time, but this is as important to sort out as if your leg were hanging off (if you see what I mean).

Sending an unMumsnetty (hug) because it is shit to feel like this.

temporaryusername · 29/09/2014 19:57

I can say that looking back there I have no regrets or worries along the lines of thinking 'gosh, I was too confident there, I shouldn't have believed I was attractive enough'. I have many times though where I regret not having been more confident and focused on what I did have going for me. I think most people are far more likely to damage their prospects with lack of self belief than with excess of it.

After all, if you think you are good for someone/a job etc but you actually aren't, well you've not lost anything, as there was nothing to gain whether you went for it or not. If you think you're not right for something/someone and you actually were, then you've lost what could have been good outcome.

I know there is a risk of being strung along or let down, but everyone takes those risks, no matter how stunning they are physically and mentally it doesn't protect you from being used or rejected. That risk is the price of having a chance at something good, and you can lessen the risk by having good self esteem and setting high standards for how you should be treated.

I know that is all kind of irrelevant as this is all deep-seated, and I also have similar doubts about myself, but not as extreme as yours. I think you probably feel it worse because your mother and possibly past relationships have not allayed your doubts, but actually the problems there were no with your inherent value or attractiveness.

It is really interesting, especially what you say about feeling more confident when single. I suppose it is just not having that next step of confidence to believe you could be the centre of someone else's world. You could though. Anyone could, it is multifactorial. As they say, finding your perfect partner is basically finding someone who can put up with your faults and whose faults you can put up with, and it is also a complex mix of nature and nurture as to who we feel meets our needs. It doesn't fit with any objective construct of good looks, age, etc. Especially long term relationships, the more long term something is, the more it has to be sustained while looks, health, age etc all change.

superstarheartbreaker · 29/09/2014 23:21

Hi there. Sod the exes op... They are in the past. I too watched a bit of the show and had to turn it off. It is because I did have a holiday romance and I did fall very in love. He was going to come over but on the day of his flight he told me that his passport had expired. That was the end of that.
So I just thought when I saw the happy couples " why didn't it work out for me? Why does nothing work out for me?" Have a date soon so so to want to jinx it.

FolkGirl · 29/09/2014 23:39

neil I think I can see what you mean. And you might have a point...

Startin where to start... My parents didn't have a great relationship. They were very different people. My mother likes to be the centre of attention and for all eyes to be on her. My dad was quiet, a bit of a homebody and, probably, a little boring. I certainly would find it frustrating being married to someone like him. I suspect my mother felt similarly to me. But not the same and it certainly manifested differently. She was supremely confident. She believed that she was competent, attractive, desirable. When single, she flirted with every man (of all ages) and believed they were genuinely interested in her. My parents separated when I was in my late teens. They didn't really argue but they weren't happy. My mother treated him, like she treated me, as a complete idiot. My dad was physically abusive towards me. He apologised when I was in my 20s and the bottom line was, he hit me when I angered him (which was pretty much all the time) because he was already wound up by my mother and couldn't hit her. It was a perfect example of the bullied becoming the bully when they meet someone weaker.

Part of my problem is that my mother always compared me negatively to her. She was slim, later apple shaped, I'm more of an hourglassy pear shape. Her shape was right, mine was wrong. I was slim but very curvy in my teens/early 20s (34-24-36). I have small feet and slim ankles and wrists. I can see written down that that doesn't sound unappealing, but it was always, "your waist is small, it makes your hips look bigger" and "your feet are too small, they make you look out of proportion". Her legs were long and slim - mine are more 'shapely' (my thighs are fatter), as I was often reminded, and the boob comparisons..! Well she even allowed/encouraged her boyfriend to make comparisons when I was late teens/early twenties.

Just remembered a time when I was 25 and we were out together. A man who was similar in style to me (quite alternative) did a bit of a double take. Cue my mother, "did you see him looking at me?" etc etc. When I pointed out that he might have been looking at me - a similarly aged women, with a similar style - she looked at me and sneered, "you? Why would he have been looking at you? " It was that kind of constant negative commentary that just destroyed me.

Thinking back to a previous question, I don't really think I'm scared of anything. I'm ashamed and embarrassed of being the shape I am and of looking like I do. Which is why it's always been the same. Fat or thin, young or old, I am the shape I am and my face is what it is. And she made me feel ashamed of myself. I think that has a lot to do with me not believing anyone would be interested. Because I am, fundamentally, unattractive. I felt guilty when I had my most recent bf because I felt he deserved better than me. I have no idea how he really felt about me. I don't understand how anyone could look at me and fancy me, so I always see it as a negative thing or disbelieve it.

I did have counselling. It had to stop when I got a new full time job.

Batshit It is horrible. I do know what you mean, but I would have to have work agree to me having time off and I don't think they would. Oh and thanks for the hug Smile

temporary what you say makes a lot of sense. I suppose, to use your description, my fear is that my faults are not things that I can expect someone else to live with because my parents couldn't. I suppose then, I think that if I was beautiful, then at least I'd have that, if nothing else. I don't feel like I've got anything that would keep someone interested. Hence, being good for just one kiss.

OP posts:
temporaryusername · 30/09/2014 00:13

I'll bet, I'll just bet, that you are beautiful even in conventional terms! It's true as we've all said that that's not the point, but still I bet you are.

I know what you mean about beauty as a sticking plaster for a perceived lack of other things. It is easy to tell ourselves, in the face of superficial media bombardment, that beauty is so important it can be enough to make a relationship work. It so absolutely can't.

You mother sounds like a real piece of work. She completely failed at one of her main jobs, which was to give you confidence in yourself. Instead she sabotaged your confidence. First time in my entire life I've heard small waist presented as a negative! Combine that kind of utter shite with being physically abused by the man who should be protecting you, I'm not surprised you feel the way you do. I'm fairly insecure and I've never had to deal with anything like that!

I'm so sorry you were let down so badly. I hope you can get help to realise you are absolutely deserving of love. I don't know what your hours/childcare restrictions are but if private counselling is an option many therapists work late evening etc, or do online/phone/Skype work or weekend workshops. There might be some good self help books out there too.

You have a lot of insight. The lack of love from your parents was due to their faults, not yours. Any faults you have, as we all do, were not the cause of that dynamic. Imagine if you treated your DC as you were treated. Would that reflect on them, or you? Knowing that it wasn't you won't take away the damage done by missing that foundation of unconditional love, but it might be a start.

Sorry to be rude about your parents but Angry.

peasandlove · 30/09/2014 04:13

Your mother was insecure. She's put you down to make herself feel better, she was probably even jealous of you and now you are an insecure woman. If you have a daughter tell her every day that she is gorgeous and smart and funny and a kind person great friend etc. Your mother should have done that for you. Tell yourself you might not be the best looking person in the world (that's not a criticism btw, none of us are) but you're still a great person and all of the above. Men I know don't go for the beautiful women as that's quite often all they are, a pretty outside and nothing more. You are worth it.

wallypops · 30/09/2014 06:02

FolkGirl

After my EA ex did a such a total job on my confidence, I put in a massive amount of weight as a way of keeping myself "safe". I had a major downer on men, and just felt that generally every bloke I know bar a very few notable exceptions was fucking around on their partners anyway.

After about 5 years, I had a really safe flirtation with someone which gave me a bit of confidence. A year on a girl friend showed me her tummy and pointed out that she gets more action than most skinny teenagers! I lost a bit of weight which made me feel a bit better. Got the hots for someone, and decided to try OD. Got lucky with date 2 - and despite being a fatso he definitely fancies me. We bonk like bunnies and its going from strength to strength. I'm still the size of a house and being with him has meant that the only exercise I get is bonking, as I now have zero free time.

Basically if you feel like its not for you, then it probably isn't at the moment. It might be years before you want to try again. And fair enough.

FolkGirl · 30/09/2014 07:13

temporary She did fail at that, completely. And she did deliberately sabotage my confidence, yes. I think, on reflection, she projected her own fear of failure and "what will the neighbours think?" onto me. In general terms, I'm quite a confident person and I'm happy to give things a go. She is very risk averse and doesn't take any chances. She saw my 'risk taking' as 'reckless' and tried to curb it by telling me how it would all go wrong, and by stopping me. But that risk taking was normal and only in terms of what I wore, putting myself out there to do stuff, going to university as a LP with a toddler... Nothing actually 'risky'. Now I've refound some confidence, I'm no different now. I'm always putting myself forward to do stuff and have a go.

But this projection and fear of failure on her part also manifested in her embarrassment that I wasn't pretty or had a beautiful figure. She felt it reflected badly on her. I look more like my dad and wasn't made 'in her image'. She was better looking than him - she probably was conventionally attractive. But he was not. As I get older, my features look more like hers and I do see those as my more attractive features. But there are times I look like my dad, or his mother, and that's when I look at myself and feel really ugly (like when I smile Sad). Which is probably an awful thing to say.

Oh and I don't use skype I'm not attractive enough Blush

peas I do have a daughter and I tell her every day that she is amazing and how proud of I am of her. Not in a 'gushing' insincere way, but I tell her she's beautiful because she's her. I tell her she's amazing because (and then list some of her none looks based qualities). I tell her I'm proud of her resiliance and generosity of spirit. I correct her behaviour, but never her. Same with my son. They're both ok Wink oh and I don't put myself down in front of them.

My mother used to tell me what a difficult and unpleasant child I was. When my daughter was a preschooler, she used to say, "I thought you were bad, but you were nothing like her" but of all the words I've ever used to describe her, 'bad' would never have been one of them. (By 'bad' she meant inquisitive, bright, always on the go, challenging. Neither of us are particularly docile. We need to know and understand, we can't just 'do as you're told' and if it doesn't make sense/is illogical, we will both say so). And she got pretty short shrift when my daughter was 5/6 and I said, "I can't believe I produced such a beautiful child" and my mother replied, "well, she's not as pretty as she used to be..." My now exH was furious about that one. I think the words "not content with breaking her daughter, she wants to start on her granddaughter now" were said.

We're NC with her now for lots of reasons.

Wally That makes a lot of sense. I hope to get to that point too. Sounds like you've come out of the other side ok. But no, it's definitely not for me at the moment. But good for you, it sounds like you're having a great time! Grin

OP posts:
StartinOverTheRainbow · 30/09/2014 07:16

Folk your mum sounds like a narcissist! Mine was as well. She was the star of the show and I played ego-booster to her. If I did something good, it was 'how good a mother she was', if I did something bad, it was 'how could you do this to me ?' The universe revolved around her and her ego (the bottomless pit).
You really can't overcome the damage a narc does to your psyche alone. I tried, really tried. Counselling is the only way to get some perspective on it and deal with it. You have this one life to make the best of and you are still young (honestly!). Please find some time somewhere to see a counselor, you deserve to have that 'script' in your head re-written. The alternative is to keep repeating your cycle of never feeling 'normal' getting close to someone, and then self-sabotaging and ending it. That cannot be a nice life? You DO deserve happiness. Thanks

FolkGirl · 30/09/2014 07:51

Startin I know. And I know it sounds like excuses, but I would have to give up commitments in my personal life to fit counselling in. At the moment, whilst I'm not interested in a relationship, I think I'd rather put my efforts and time towards doing some of the other amazing stuff that I'm doing.

It's only really relationships that suffer for it now, I've made great headway on my own adn with the little bit of counselling I have had.

I feel I need a break from myself, my head, my thoughts, her for a while. At the moment, I wouldn't have time for a relationship either, really

Oh yes, and the way you describe your mother is mine perfectly. The universe revolves around her.

When my relationship with my son's father broke down 16 years ago, she was so angry that I'd brought shame on the family that she arranged for me to move into a LA mother and baby care home. Everyone else in there was there because they had been in care; were substance abusers; were on the CP register themselves; had drug/alcohol problems - so there were some very troubled young women in there Sad. And I was there because my mother was ashamed of me. It was a punishment. She didn't visit me for the first 3 weeks because she'd misunderstood the home's rules about residents not leaving for a couple of weeks and got herself signed off work for 6 weeks to cope with the stress. I was completely abandoned. It was horrible.

OP posts:
FolkGirl · 30/09/2014 08:18

Just to clarify that I don't think I was better than those other girls/women, but some of them had quite complex needs. And had had chaotic and troubled upbringings/lifestyles. They were there for their babies' protection, as well as their own.

I just didn't have anyone who gave a shit about me.

OP posts:
StartinOverTheRainbow · 30/09/2014 12:02

Folk, you wouldn't do counselling to help you have a relationship. Not at all. You do it to heal that great big gaping would that has salt rubbed into it. You do it for YOU, not someone else. Ah, but here is where the 'script' comes full circle.......you have to feel you deserve it.

A narc mother affects every aspect of your life; it's not something you can put to the back of your mind (you will try, but that 'shark' will surface time and again when it smells blood)
I understand the denial and the escaping, but it does catch up to you in the end. Hopefully, you won't let too many years slip by. Thanks

SemiSkim · 30/09/2014 12:07

Just been reading the thread. Do you think that deep down you think you're not worth loving because your mother was horrible to you and then you got cheated on? As if it was your fault somehow - not that your mother was awful to have treated her child that way and your ex was a wanker to have cheated? Because it's not you. You were a defenceless child. And then your ex turned out to not be worthy of you.

I don't know how you can switch your mindset without counselling etc.

I actually feel very similarly to you - I was cheated on and I just don't believe that men fancy me. And if they do, they will soon stop when they realise what a horrible person I am. Because if the man that was meant to love and cherish me thought nothing of stomping (figuratively) all over me, then maybe it was because I wasn't enough for him and I will never be enough for someone else.

I don't believe men could like me and I don't know how to build up my self-esteem. I look in the mirror and know that, objectively, I am slim and look ok. But there are other women who are slimmer, look better and are funnier, sexier, more of a catch really.

I can really empathise with you in your feelings. Wish I had some advice in how to build up self esteem for you, because I think it boils down to that.

thalassa · 30/09/2014 13:15

Folkgirl, can I just say that you sound insightful, interesting and like you'd be an amazing friend. You have a lot of self knowledge, but it is muddied by so much deep seated confused thinking.

I do think I know how you feel, though, and I think a lot of women who are intelligent and thoughtful, but have had bad luck in relationships, feel the same. I do in a way. Now, I'm slim and fit due to what I do (athlete), but no one could really call me "beautiful". In fact, no one ever has. Ever. My partner sometimes says that I'm "pretty", but more often if he says anything, he'll say I have a good body, but that isn't really a compliment as my body is a tool of my trade and looks the way it does due to a hell of a lot of hard work. I hate my face, years of bad skin care and sun damage has left my complexion wrecked, and my hair is a constant battle. I loved having my hair cut short as it suits my face, which is relatively long but with small features, but my partner hates short hair so I keep it shoulder length or longer. But it is frizzy and coarse.

I find it hard to believe that he can really like me because deep down I know I'm not good enough, in the same way you do. But we really are good enough. Everyone is, unless they are evil or abusive. I am not sure that even to the man who says he loves me, that I really am enough. It is a hard place to be.

temporaryusername · 30/09/2014 17:25

I don't do Skype either tbh Wink.

I think you sound fab too, I really admire you and what you've achieved.

FolkGirl · 30/09/2014 18:51

startin I see what you mean. But I don't think I am strong enough to deal with it, at the moment. I found the counselling I had earlier this year quite hard work, if I'm honest Sad

I find it goes round and round my head so much. But I'm not really in a position to address it head on.

semi I think I'm not worth loving because I've never been loved. Well, not by anyone who had the choice. So my children love me (I think) but my mother was too embarrassed by me and, as I said earlier, made me feel ashamed of myself. Not for what I'd done or said, but for who I am. Because of this, I've made bad choices with boyfriends and partners. My exH was 'fond' of me and 'cared' about me. But he didn't love me.

Unfortunately, you can't build up self esteem. You can build up self confidence, but self esteem comes from knowing your worth to other people.

thalassa Thank you. I understand what you are saying. Part of me wants to ask why we are so hard on ourselves, but I don't think I am too hard. I don't know what the answer is. Well probably counselling, but I'm not sure I can face dealing with that. And I really don't have the time anyway.

temporary Thank you x

OP posts:
StartinOverTheRainbow · 30/09/2014 20:46

self esteem comes from knowing your worth to other people

Nope.

No one is responsible for how you feel about yourself. I could say you walk like a duck and look ridiculous, but if you don't believe it, it won't hurt you. There's that word again believe .
You have been 'programmed' with her version of who you are. Counselling is incredibly ball-busting work (if I had a pair Grin ) but that's why it works. It digs deep to get the crud that's been festering and decaying inside you. It hurts to clean it out, but the wound can only heal once it's out.
I sound preachy, but I don't mean to be. I've been from where you are, through the tough work of counselling (and still continuing actually) and made it to the other side. Not easy at all, but so much easier that to hear that broken record of poison in my head day after day after day after day......

temporaryusername · 30/09/2014 21:17

If self esteem came from anything external, like other people, then what could it mean and how could it work? It wouldn't be 'self' really, would it?
So would you take ten people and say, well, one likes me but nine don't, so it is majority vote? Or would you say, nine like me, one doesn't, but the one who doesn't is the only one whose opinion is worth having? Everyone is going to differ, you can't please all the people all of the time. Some of them you wouldn't want to please. Whether or not you please them will reflect as much who they are as who you are. Approval from others is not a way to evaluate yourself. Actually you need to assert (to yourself) what you know you are worth, and not accept any less. I think in a way you are, with your sense you're not ready to be in a relationship till you feel better about all this.

Your self esteem isn't low because you were in a relationship with a man who didn't love you (although that won't have helped). You accepted a relationship with a man that didn't love you because your self esteem was low. He had his own issues to be in that position also. You got out though, which is brilliant.

There are horrible people who have devoted partners, and perhaps that is due to issues the partner brings to the situation. So a partner being devoted and faithful isn't necessarily a sign of true love or of the object of their devotion being superior or loveable.

Aussiebean · 01/10/2014 01:13

Counselling doesn't have to be an hour long session once a week. Some are via email or skype.

Email might be good for you, then you would be able to take it slow and think about it in chunks that you feel you can handle.