"I'm good for just one kiss, not legendary love..."

[FolkGirl]

I'm over halfway through my Sunday night bottle of wine. So please forgive me if this is utter rambling bollocks...

I'm watching I Married the Waiter for the second time this evening and I can't really get my head around it all.

I don't want to be unkind to anyone, or whatever, because this is more about how I feel about myself than what I think about them. But just to say that I don't understand how some of these women genuinely believe that these men love them.

I'm 39. Not unattractive. Not slim, but not overweight. And I don't believe that anyone would genuinely be interested in me. So where do these women get their confidence from?! It baffles me.

See, genuinely nice men is beginning to feel/sound like an oxymoron.

And I don't want to be one of those women.

I know a couple in their 70s who've been together since their teenage years.

Their lives are together, their histories are together and their memories are together.

I won't have that. Someone's 20s and 30s (and possibly 40s) will have been with someone else/other women.

I feel like I need to take a sledgehammer to my head to knock the thoughts out. But I can't quite shift the deep down notion that I'm right and it's everyone else who's got it wrong.

But I also know that that's not really true.

AF yes, well the the "too intelligent for that" bit would be right!

But I kind of think I'm "too intelligent" for all of it. Too intelligent to believe someone would fancy me; too intelligent to believe someone could love me...

Sorry, I know I'm being annoying. I'm just having a bit of a brain dump.

Sandra bullock is a very attractive woman, top of her career and everything.

He hubby still cheated on her. Attractiveness doesn't protect you from a*ehoes.

For what it is worth, my mother doesn't love me either. And most of her critisim was how obese I was, how horrible my skin was, how bad my clothes were and how my friends looked so much better then me.

Luckily I realised she was talking a load of sh*t and while I am not saying I wasn't affected, still am to be honest, I realised I have worth. And tried very hard to change my way of thinking. Took years. But worth it.
I don't know if my hubby will always look into my eyes with the same amount of love in his eyes. But if he doesn't, that doesn't change my worth.

FolkGirl, you are thinking too much. You are a person. You don't seem to be a person who has serious issues that could lead you into damaging behaviour (as far as I can tell, from here). Therefore you are as loveable as the next person.

That's all there is to say really, and that is enough. That's all we can do, be sorted enough not to hurt ourselves or anyone else, and to keep growing, keep learning.

Don't think yourself into never dealing with anyone ever again because you might not be enough for them. That's projecting a random idea of perfection on people you've never met.

I don't know what perfect is and neither do you. No-one does. I do know it's not a good thing to rule your future on.

Btw, have never, ever been obese.

Oh my goodness, my DH was nearly 40 when we married, and I'm his second wife. I was in my early 30s and not exactly a blushing virgin bride. In the greater scheme of things it doesn't matter. We clicked, the past doesn't matter.

Good! We'll think about how you can empower yourself in ways that have nothing to do with men ? Make a list of all your positive qualities not looks and start there. Any woman can look good with time and effort but that's not the point. You have to value yourself first.

Yes, you are a being a bit annoying

and a bit self pitying

I shall remind you of this conversation on the Town hall steps

Your mum's behaviour has clouded your judgement FolkGirl.
She has a lot to answer for.

Aussie so what is it that means a man thinks you're worth being faithful to, then? I take fidelity very seriously, and expect it. I ended my marriage without proof (it came later) so I have no issue with that. But, at the same time, I don't feel like I have the right to expect someone to be faithful to me.

Do I really have the right to expect someone to resist/reject a more attractive, slimmer, sexier woman just because I want them too? What would it say about them that they didn't deserve someone better than me? Do I want to be with someone who thinks so little of themselves that they believe I'm the best they can do?

But someone who believe they deserved better wouldn't want me.

Catch 22.

Klep No, I wouldn't indulge in 'damaging behaviour'. I hold some quite responsible positions in RL. What you said about projecting an idea of perfection, sort of makes sense. But I don't really understand it. It feels like I have a peripheral understanding of it, but as soon as I try to focus on it, it's gone.

Folk girl there are men with vulnerabilities out there, who also have to grapple with the shit their parents gave them, who want someone to connect with and someone who gets them.

You know, real people, with painful histories too, and with hopes for the future. Decent people.

Of course there are truckloads of bastards and bores and I know it can be so demoralising navigating all that as a single woman. But. There are the humane, complicated, nice, funny, well meaning men too.

AF you can do!

neil I don't know how to change it. What if she was actually right? I mean, she might not have been, but, equally, she might.

Drum sad thing is, I could do that. But I won't; it could 'out' me. But it still wouldn't be enough. I need to be perfect. And I'm not. I get that no one is, but if I was 'perfect' I could believe that any bad behaviour was a flaw in the other person rather than because I wasn't good enough.

I've always felt like I look good on paper, but the reality doesn't live up to it.

Atrocious My recent exbf was one of those men. But I wasn't quite sure if he was really that, or if he was a bastard. Or whether the two were mutually exclusive anyway.

The thing is, I'm quite content being single really. There's part of me that doesn't 'get' the whole needing to be in a relationship, thing.

but I also know that if that changed and I did want to be in one, I wouldn't be able to with how I feel at the moment.

Well, obviously, they're not mutually exclusive, but you know what I mean (I hope).

And it's not just how I feel at the moment. It's how I've always felt. I just feel like now I've given myself permission to feel like it, rather than pretend I don't feel like it.

And I'm not really being 'self pitying' although I am

I just don't understand.

Anyway. it's probably bedtime now...

You find it impossible to trust that someone might love you, and this probably stems from your horrible mother.

That's your starting point.

I know people always advocate therapy (and I do too) but anything that involves talking that stuff through in depth with a supportive person/group would probably be really helpful.

Even if you've tried before and had counselling before, it does sound like it needs loads more excavating.

I know it sounds obvious but if everything stems from that issue, throw everything at that issue. Any tool you can find to hack through it.

Thank you, Atrocious.

I want to say, "you're right" and agree with you, but I can't quite do it because to do so is like saying, "I'm wrong", but I'm not really sure that I am.

The counselling I had helped a lot, but I can't fit it in now, due to work. I have told a couple of friends how I feel, but they don't get it. They think I'm talking nonsense, I think/feel like they're deluded/lying to me to shut me up!

I've read some fab stuff on here, too, but it's not enough to have a long term lasting effect. I think that it's because any change in thinking I do have is very superficial and, therefore, not lasting. It's never deep enough to effect a real change in my thinking. Because I can rationalise my current thinking and, even though I might be able to rationalise an alternative, that's not enough to convince me that my current thinking is wrong.

If that makes sense.

Yes it makes sense. Your feelings of being unloveable must run very, very deep. Your mind is so used to those thought patterns, and all the more minor thoughts about life and yourself that run off the main thoroughfare.

I don't know. Perhaps all you can do is keep asking the questions. To yourself, here, anywhere you can. A shame your friends aren't helpful but you can keep thinking about it and maybe at some point it will be possible to see a counsellor again.

A perceptual shift CAN happen. Does all the time. Opens things up. You sound stuck, and that's a frustrating feeling, but to keep asking the question and identifying the source of your feelings is powerful.

Forget about the man issue for now, is what I would say (easier said than done of course....). This runs deeper.

Yes you can expect fidelity. Just as they can expect fidelity from you. And maybe, just maybe, you are the perfect one for them and there is no one better. But you will never find that because you will be going Into that relationship telling him that everyone is better than you. And as you know from your mothers example, tell someone often enough they will believe it.

I think you need to have a look at the stately homes thread. Read other peoples experience trying to cope with the damage of horrible parents. That really helped me to see that it was my mothers issues and not mine.

You need to find a counsellor who understands toxic parents and can help you through the damage she has done to you. It will be hard but worth it.

I think at the moment that any relationship you enter will end badly as you will be going into it expecting the other person to be wanting someone else.

Even if you remind single for the rest if your life, it would be a good idea to get that counselling because if your mother is anything like mine, this is not the only area of your life that has been affected.

Thank you, again.

I don't think it's that they're not helpful, but they just don't understand it and they don't know what to say.

I am stuck and it is very frustrating.

No, you're quite right about forgetting the man issue. Although, to be fair, that's not on my radar. Although it does feel like a decision I needed to make rather than wanted to.

I am definitely going to bed now...

Hi FolkGirl have you ever tried internet dating? I'm 53, not specially attractive but fairly sporty and wholesome looking (if that doesn't make me sound too much like a muesli bar lol!! )
I went on match.com and was amazed by the number of blokes in their 20's and 30's who wanted to meet up with me. I didn't do it and it was fairly obvious that that they wanted a fling rather than a long term relationship, but I enjoyed the flattery!

You've said yourself FolkGirl that you've always felt this way, so in the nicest possible way, pinning it on age or attractiveness is just an excuse. You'd always find a reason. I wonder if it might help to try and realise than none of the reasons you're giving can be true. If it were the case that there is an objective ideal of age/weight/attraction etc then surely they would be a tiny minority of women, or even one woman, that every man would leave their partner for. Almost every woman couldn't objectively be classed as the most 'conventional' type of good looks etc, so why are so many of these women in happy relationships? What do think is so different about you that other women deserve, and get, long term relationships without being the prettiest, or slimmest etc? You cannot claim that it is looks or age, since many of those women will not have either massively in their favour!

You're picking this extreme of men who are obviously exploiting women they aren't really attracted to, in this tv programme. You're highlighting that but ignoring the many 'ordinary' women who don't have all the perfection you speak of, but whose partners do genuinely love them.

A relationship amounts to so much more than a narrow 'on paper' formula. I'm sorry you've not had people around you who've made you know the truth of that.

Every time you tell yourself it would be your age, looks etc that are a problem, remind yourself that the whole world is full of evidence that can't be true. It just doesn't work like that. It won't necessarily make you feel better in itself, because as you say the cause is way deeper and more longstanding. I do think you can overcome it though. Of course you are loveable and worth staying with, there is no question about it. Be careful while you're feeling this way, it could lead you to get involved with lesser men! Tell those married men in no uncertain terms to 'get lost'.

Folkgirl, I don't suppose it's any consolation, but I feel exactly the same as you about myself and I too believe I will have to spend the rest of my life alone. I hope you sort things out before getting to my age though.

Folkgirl, I've read loads of your lovely posts, always wise, always compassionate - its very odd that you don't apply that wisdom and compassion to yourself...

I would say you need to work on yourself - get counseling - its not normal and more importantly, it must be miserable, to feel so unloveable.

Do local papers still print pics of all the newlyweds from the weekend? If they do, check them out. People of all ages, sizes and er, shapes fall madly in love with each other, enough to make huge public commitments.

If you think only good looking people have partners, you haven't been outside your house much have you :)