I have no idea what to do about my ex-DH and DDs

[LoafersOrLouboutins]

I was with my (now ex) DH for 13 years, we met at uni and divorced last year. ExDH is Iranian, I'm white British. Cultural differences were never an issue for us and ExDH wasn't a practising Muslim by any means; he drinks alcohol and we lived together for years before getting married. He loves Iranian food and music so it was more the Iranian culture which was a part of our lives than DH family's religious beliefs. We have two DDs together (ages 5 and 2) and we were very happy, DH was very supportive of my choice to go back to work full time 3months after each DD was born and I was fine with him working away often. Then when DD2 was 7months old he just broke down and said he couldn't carry on with the way things were, it felt wrong to him and he felt like he was failing our DDs. I tried my best to get to the heart of the matter but a week of blazing arguments followed, I left our home in London with our DDs to stay with my parents in the countryside for the weekend. I would often do this when DH was working away and I told him it was to get away from the arguments but we would all be back on the Monday. I did return on the Monday to find DH had packed his things and gone to Iran. He rang me a few weeks later and spoke to our DDs on the phone, we were raising DD1 to be bi-lingual so he spoke to her in Farsi, I'm not sure what he said and she has never told me (although I'm not sure if she remembers it now). ExDH has since inundated me with emails of his love whilst divorcing me(!) and rings me at all hours to cry about how he misses our DDs. DD2 doesn't remember him but DD1 does and misses him a lot, she goes to a weekend Farsi club and we still do Iranian cultural things but she wants her daddy. I KNOW it would be hugely unsafe and irresponsible of me to take them to Iran, which is what my exDH begs me to do as he says we could start a new life there, (Betty Mahmoody comes to mind) but I feel like I'm failing my DDs. They're missing out on their father, who still loves him and a part of their identity. I'm so angry with my exDH but I also don't know what to do. I'm really struggling with being a single parent and I feel torn in three directions; my parents, myDDs and my exDH. Sorry if that was a rant and possibly should have been posted on the relationships board. Any advice?

rollonthesummer

re: passports. You have to get effectively a notice put on at the passport office saying new passports aren't to be issued.

personally I'd issued court proceedings to confirm residence pdq...having fought for 7 years to keep DS in this country.

Please talk to Reunite, they are a charity and will provide excellent specialist advice.

Just chiming in with the general consensus. Ignore all the boo hooing. He knows where you are and you're offering him contact. He wants them in Iran. You know damn well that if you go, you'll be coming back without your children. Protect them from him.

I've read so many threads like this on Mumsnet of broken down relationships with Muslim men and white British women that it's starting to feel like groundhog day. It's funny how they all start out being just like any other bloke, dating normally, living together, being completely like any other British couple, and then BAM! the minute you are married and/or have children with them it all changes. The controlling starts.

For goodness sake how on earth are you failing them?

He's the one who left suddenly for no good reason. He's the one who put his own feelings first. He doesn't get to have it all his own way. If he loved his children as much as he says he does he'd have stayed in the UK in the first place. Do not spend a moment blaming yourself for the fact your children are without their father. Not one moment. the minute you start to bend to his emotional manipulation you are one step closer to losing those children.

Don't even offer to meet him halfway. Seriously, don't. He knows where they are - if he wants them he sees them in England. Full stop.

Absolutely do not go to Iran, or anywhere near the ME.

Can you get a note put on their passport file that they are not to leave the country unless with you and none other than you can apply for a passport for them? Not sure if that is a possibility or not. You need to get some legal help on this.

As others have said, your DDs will adapt. Just tell them as often as you have to, that daddy has gone to live in his home country, and he loves them very much. You hope that he will come to London to see them in the future, unfortunately you can't go to Iran to see him. Over and over.

It is great that you are keeping up with the cultural side for your DDs, it shows them that it is not about wanting to cutoff their heritage, and hope they understand when they are older why you couldn't take the risk to visit their Dad over there.

well said, facebookwilleatitself

Do not even meet half way with this shit of a man

Facbookwilleatitself - to be fair, plenty of while British men in relationships with white British women turn out to be abusive arseholes too. I don't think it's fair to imply this is a problem most common to Muslim men.

It could be true that people who turn out to be controlling display those traits in common with their own culture, but they all start out being just like any other bloke.

He rang me a few weeks later and spoke to our DDs on the phone, we were raising DD1 to be bi-lingual so he spoke to her in Farsi, I'm not sure what he said and she has never told me (although I'm not sure if she remembers it now)

just wondering if you would be able to record any future phone calls between them and then ask a teacher at the Farsi Club to translate it for you?

Thank you for the responses! It been really heart warming and I have a stronger sense of determination . My parents have both DD's passports at their house as they've been terrified of this ever since DD1 was born, so even if he were to attempt to take them from London he'd have to drive down to Devon and break into my parents' home! I know it sounds silly, and I'm going over the same point, but there is still a part of me which is so shocked and heartbroken he would leave us for Iran. He wasn't a 'hardline' Muslim by any means or even somebody who identified as an Iranian after the revolution, he saw 1979 revolution as a negative thing and preferred the days of Persia and the Shah (although he is only 33). He was passionate about human rights and even had a, albeit fleeting, interest in feminist theory. To leave our DDs for a life in Iran was just unthinkable before all of this. He does had family in Iran, in fact all of his family are tree except for one cousin who lives in France. I've met his parents twice and they were friendly, they visited us after the birth of each DD. I wonder whether that's when the 'spark' was ignited for him to raise the girls in Iran as DD2 was just 7 months when he left. I imagine his family are putting pressure on him. I'm going to calmly sit the girl down tonight (or should I say it informally over the dinner?): and say something along the lines of 'I know that you miss Daddy, and I miss him too sometimes, but Daddy has gone to live in Iran. Daddy lives with babba and granny in Iran like he did when he was a little boy. But I will always be here with you and so will Nanny and Grandpa and all of our friends. You're still half Iranian and we're lucky we have so many people who you can speak to in Farsi even without Daddy' is that ok? DD1 is only 5 but she's very 'knowing'. We live in an area of London with a large Iranian community, I just don't want DD1 to feel like she's constantly waiting for her dad. I think Skype is blocked in Iran (or so exDH says), I'm going to pass my email address onto my dad to check and once a week I'll reply to the most serious emails regarding the girls. I'm going to tell him to call once a week at a specific time so he can speak to the girls and not me. Thanks again, it's good to talk about it

Good point about recording the phone calls! I have an iPhone so there must be an app for that? The teachers at the prep school and pre-prep which my DDs attend know what has happened and to never allow him to see the girls if he ever turns up at the school. They're under instructions to call me immediately if so. Excuse the lack of paragraphs, I'm using my phone!

Do not record phone calls, it's illegal to do so without informing the other party and inadmissible in Court anyway.

seriously, get on the phone to reunite or browse their website.

You simply need to really understand ONE thing - though I realise that this whole thing is not simple:

He does not love them. He left them.

He upped and left his children to cry for him. He decided not to be a father to them any more.

He cries on the phone because he is selfish and manipulative. Nothing else.

Do not ever, ever take them to Iran.

You would in fact be serving them MUCH better by trying to move on FROM him with them - he is being allowed to be built up into an absent godlike figure, on a pedestal. That is worrying, because if it carries on, by the time they are early teens they may well want to find him, to go to Iran themselves - not understanding the implications of that. You have 'control' of them NOW - while they are small - think very very hard what opinion of him you want them to grow up with - he may be their dad, but he is a dangerously poor, self-centred one who DOES NOT LOVE THEM. Not as a parent.

Minimise contact. Drop the Farsi and the 'you are half Iranian' stuff. Now. Your eldest is five - you could do that now, in eight years time it will be too late when Daddy (in Farsi) is telling her on the phone that she doesn't have to stay with Mummy, she can come on a plane and live with her lovely Iranian family. Don't encourage contact.

Does this sound harsh? Yes. Because this isn't a father who will be THERE for them, will be a parent. He has proven that he acts in his best interests and not theirs. He could leave them. Please remember that.

You can legally record calls you are on without informing the other party but you cannot supply them to a third party, quote from them etc. Recording the children's calls, when you are not on the call is an even more difficult area. I suppose you might be able to argue a prevention of crime justification if you had a geniune reason to believe he was organising taking the children out of the country without your consent.

However, given how young the children are, its unlikely he is having any meaningful conversations with them and you can just ask them what he said.

I'm going to have a look at the reunite website when I'm home. I known haven't failed my DDs but I feel like I have- it sounds silly and at the age of 32 I should know better but I have such a good relationship with my parents I'm sad my DDs won't have that. But then my dad has never posed the threat of a life of oppression in Iran... (Not that he actually threatens it, he's the promise of a 'fresh start' type).

Oh, and another reason to break away from the cultural stuff, from the Iranian community there:

'I just don't want DD1 to feel like she's constantly waiting for her dad.'

That is what will happen. Constant reminders, being brought up with the atmosphere that so much is missing, that they don't really belong in either community, and above all, that their dad has gone. Left them.

Where do you want to be in five years? Remarried? With a partner? Think of that too. Do you want to encourage them to feel constantly bereft for a worthless dad who they have on a pedestal, or have them in a place where they can move on and accept, maybe, a stepdad?

But they're so small OP.

He's hardly BEEN a father to them. He fathered them and left!

Like I say, in ten years they could have a strong, PRESENT family consisting of a mum and stepdad, and maybe other brothers and sisters. You are stll young.

Really, I would start thinking of him as gone, as in the past. Not only is it probably the approach that will eventually stand your DDs in better emotional stead than 'Absent Daddy' constantly being in the wings, it is so, so much safer than encouraging contact which is likely, one day, to see him be able to influence them against you, when they are of an age where you can do little about it.

Agree, stop with the Farsi, it's just another tool to manipulate the situation with. If he was bothered had could have stayed and been a father to her.

He sounds like a bastard and you and your DDs are better off without him.

I think it might be better to tell them in a very straightforward way that they can understand that they can never visit Iran while they are under 18 because if they do then they would not be allowed to come back home to you, their grandparents and friends, quite possibly forever. Tell them that's the law there, and it's a shame but there is nothing you can do about it. And although it is putting it in rather simplistic terms it's hardly a lie.

I do not usually like children to be manipulated in these situations but I think for their own good it's best that they are made aware that if they ever go to Iran they will be held against their will and may never see you again.

They must be disabused of any fairytale ideas about Iran and must know in no uncertain terms that it is a dangerous place for them - even if Daddy is there. If you keep talking about their Iranian culture as something special to be treasured then they are just going to hanker after going there, and after him. But being half Iranian has not turned out such a cultural fairytale for them so far, has it?

Plus, let's face it, they hardly know him. the youngest doesn't remember him at all and the five year old will have virtually no real memories - she clings on to an entirely imagined and fabricated version of this romantic, faraway Daddy figure in her head. that is tragic enough in itself - don't make it more tragic by feeding the monster.

Woo of course men (or indeed just people) of any nationality/creed/culture can start off perfect and then change for the worse after marriage/children. I know that.

It's just that certain groups of people seem to do it rather more than others. Almost to a depressingly predictable degree. They think they can start moving all the goalposts and use their 'culture' as justification.

It hadn't occurred to me that instilling a sense of Iranian identity in them could be a negative thing, but that is a very good point. I can't really stop Farsi club because DD1 has friends there but I'm going to cut down on the Iranian food, music and films. Slowly take it out of their lives. I had 'the talk' with them earlier. I read the posts and realised I've put my ExDH on far too much of a pedestal, I think this is because there is a part of me which refuses to accept that he has changed. But now I've had to accept it. The talk went like this:
Me: 'DD1, you know Daddy moved out last year? He lives in Iran now, like he did as a little boy and he's going to live there forever. I asked him whether he would like to come to London but he wants to be in Iran'
DD1: 'With Babba and granny?'
Me: 'Yes, but I'm still here and always will be. So will nanny and grandpa and all of our friends. Iran isn't a very nice place and if you went there then you might be taken from mummy forever. Its scary. When you're 18, if you REALLY want to, then you can go to Iran to see Daddy. But it isn't a nice place, you'll know that though. Daddy is very silly to go to Iran but its his choice'
DD1: (very serious face, I was worried she might cry) Can we have pizza for dinner?

I realise this is just the first step and I will have to keep going over this throughout their childhood and again when DD2 is old enough to understand. I can't imagine why any 18 year old girl would want to visit Iran so I'm sure they won't have any interest in going there by then.

With regards to the future I think it can only be a good thing that my ExDH is taken down from this pedestal I've put him on. I would like to meet somebody else and maybe have another child (in many years time!).

Thank you, I can't put into words how much this thread has helped me and given me a steely determination for the future

Good job OP. Sounds like you have this all in hand.

Now we just need to get you dating again

Look at it like this.... if he had the DDs living with him in Iran, do you think he and his family would be making huge efforts to instill their English identity? Of course not. And you may not want to hear this, but a friend of mine's ds was snatched in England by a friend of her ex-DH (who had gone back to live in Saudi). Because the child was a baby, it was easy to get him out of the country on a borrowed passport -- babies all look similar. You may want to steer clear of Iranian "friends" of your ex, particularly as the weeping and wailing you describe from him sounds as though he isn't exactly stable.

I agree with stopping Farsi btw. I think, essentially, a secret language between your dc and exh is a recipe for disaster when there is a real threat for some kind of abduction.

Food is just food though - you can serve that without it being a 'thing' - it's just another meal like Mexican or Chinese after all.

I think it's really interesting that your parents have been concerned about abduction since dd1s birth btw.

No No No No No No No No No No. But you know that already. I'm afraid I'd be going into full LOCK DOWN mode right about NOW. I think you should enquire into the legal aspect of making it impossible for your ex to remove your DDs from this country and I would never take them elsewhere (EU included) to meet with him. Never! Court protection and travel restrictions. The whole nine yards and more. Begin the process this very minute. Do not ever trust him when it comes to this matter.

You will fail your dc if you take them to Iran.

You've had so much great advice and i don't want to keep piling in but my gut reaction when you described the telling you he loves you and crying down the phone...while divorcing you...makes me think he's trying to soften you up into travelling to Iran. You'd see a very different man upon arrival, I imagine.

I know it must seem obvious to all those outside the relationship but to the OP, hearing he loves her is throwing her scraps she wants to believe from a relationship that for her, ended inexplicably. It's very manipulative and serves only his desire to keep you "on side" to persuade you to bring the girls to Iran. His softly-softly-catchy-monkey approach will turn if you go.

You've brought up Betty Mahmoody for a reason - you know the risks and the reality of what will happen. She is a cautionary tale you will do well to hold in your mind. I'd also be wary of Iranian friends of his that live in London. I don't want to tar all Iranians with the same brush but I would be very paranoid right about now.

Good luck. You sound very smart but also, understandably, you loved this man and obviously didn't want the relationship to end. But he is only serving his end game now...to have the girls. He doesn't want you. I'm sorry, I know that's so harsh, I hate saying it but you need to hear it so you remember everything he does and says to you will be about getting the girls, not his relationship with you back.

I am glad if this has been of help, OP.

If you ever feel yourself unsure, here's something to think about. Could you IMAGINE doing this yourself? Imagine putting your own wishes to live elsewhere or have another kind of life ABOVE being a mum to your DDs, being quite able to turn your back on them, as if they were just two random children, and live abroad? To hear them crying and asking when you were coming back for them and just not respond to that? But to cry down the phone at the same time that you wanted to all be together and you missed them? How fake would those tears have to be?

Your ex is dangerous - really, he is. He does not care for your DDs as a parent should. There is no unconditional love here - the best thing for them would be to have their father with them - that should come before all else, but it doesn't for him. It is more important to him for them to be manoevred into fitting into his lifestyle, even if he makes them suffer in the interim. That's exactly the kind of thinking which would see him happily watch you deported - he'd be able to tell himself that it was for the best as long as they were brought up in Iran, just like he's telling himself now that it's more important for him to be doing this - and the fact they've lost their dad is not important.

I'm glad if this thread has helped. One thing I would stress absolutely, like some others on here. STOP THE FARSI. Your DD is only 5 - she will make other friends. Do it NOW - tell her club is not running when she goes back to school, find another activity for that day and tell her that perhaps we'll be able to do club soon when it starts again. She will forget very soon. But please sever these very dangerous links. (Personally I'd even look into moving). The safest way for your DDs to grow up would be NOT understanding the language and NOT having friends here, which could be friends of his, who she can talk to without your knowledge or understanding. You are telling her Iran is a dangerous place? No point if she has a whole other group she feels part of telling her that it's her wonderful homeland.

Good luck OP. I hope you do move on - and remember, it's also likely that he will, too. I hope that in five years, you and your DDs are happy in a new family, maybe with other children, and your ex is happy in Iran with a new wife and children. All this is far, far more likely to happen the more you gently but firmly detach from anything to do with him.