EA or "just" nonabusive selfish behaviour?

[DeletedThreadGotMeThinking]

Am a longtime lurker and occasional poster, have nc for this as I'm worried about being identifiable.

I was reading That Thread That Was Deleted yesterday and realised that it is quite important to me to work out whether my H is actually emotionally abusive, or whether he is "just" selfish and immature. It matters I think because if it is only selfishness/immaturity than maybe I should keep trying to make him see my point of view and meet him half-way on trying to improve our relationship. OTOH is he is EA then lots of lurking in Relationships suggests to me that such an approach is unlikely to succeed.

I'm struggling to categorise his behaviour because a lot of it is subtle, and because he doesn't do some of the cardinal things that are described on EA threads. So I would greatly appreciate those with experience of EA looking at my shit list and giving their opinion one way or the other. I haven't given too much detail about specific incidents as H knows I use MN.

So here goes.

Things he doesn't do

1. Doesn’t shout at me, call me names, swear or rant at me on a regular basis (a couple of isolated incidents as exceptions).
2. Doesn’t express jealousy of other men or try to control what I wear.
3. Doesn’t limit my access to money.
4. Doesn’t limit contact with family.
5. Doesn’t make me feel scared or afraid.
6. I’m don’t blame myself for his behaviour, and don’t think it is my fault.

Things he does do
Blaming:

1. Tells me it is my fault that he gets angry if I disagree with him, that I “provoked an argument”.
2. Tells me I am unsupportive if I disagree with him, or if I don’t agree with him in the right way

Controlling:

1. Doesn’t openly limit contact with friends, but does

• makes evening socialising difficult because he gets annoyed about having to change his own routine to suit me, e.g. come home early to look after DCs.
• express reluctance to socialise with others on weekends, sometimes cancels and leaves me to attend alone

10. Doesn’t openly limit my access to money, but does

• make occasional threats about needing to get more involved with finances to check what I am doing (I do all finance stuff because he won’t), or speculating that I am saving money in secret
• makes it difficult to take big joint financial decisions because he will get stroppy about being made to engage
• is annoyed/displeased if he finds out that I have spent more on something than he has or have bought something that he doesn’t have (and we’re only talking cheap smartphone or new glasses, nothing extravagant), acts as if I have cheated him out of something
• use finances to manipulate me into doing things with or for him (e.g. threatening to spend a large amount of money if I don’t go with him to help him buy clothes)
• regards family money as his, gets annoyed at the suggestion that he can’t spend family income how he likes or that he has to limit his spending to a budget

11. Will say he has decided to go in to work late/at weekends (voluntary hours, not scheduled shifts), will insist that I facilitate this (e.g. by cooking a meal early) then not go in to work after all 12. Makes it difficult to go out and do things on weekends, e.g. by sleeping late, but gets annoyed at the suggestion that I/DCs might go out and do things by ourselves 13. Won’t give me space after an argument, insists on following me around, 14. Wants to control the space in the house for his own agenda – e.g. we have a large collection of books, and he gets angry at the suggestion that wall space should be used for anything other than bookcases, even though as a household we need space for other things, also gets angry when compromise solutions (like ebooks) are suggested 15. Gets angry when I won’t do normal everyday tasks with or for him, e,g, laundry, making lunch, buying underwear (he has never done these things for me) 16. Insisted that I get him a particular birthday gift “because otherwise you probably won’t get me anything” and hasn’t unpacked it 6 months later 17. Gets angry if I arrange domestic routines to suit my needs (I work flexible hours to fit in around DCs and need to work in the evening to make up time) rather than his (workaholic who always stays at work and comes home when it suits him and never tells me in advance what time he’ll be home)

Poor boundaries:
18. Has been known to say that he feels we are so close that we are like one person
19. Refuses to respect my right to use of personal objects, e.g. will drink from a water glass I’m using or use my bath towel despite me asking him not to
20. Sees nothing wrong with snacking on/using up food he knows was bought specifically for me or DCs, despite having his own particular snacks bought in the weekly shop

Passive-aggressive:
21. Will repeatedly perform a household task so poorly it has to be redone or claim he doesn’t know how to do it
22. Insists on “resolving” a problem in the quickest way possible (to avoid having to spend time on it or deal with other people) without accepting the need to find sensible and economical solutions.
23. Responds poorly to criticism, gets defensive, comes up with counter-accusations
24. Quietly makes provocative remarks (e.g. put-downs) in situations when I can’t easily respond, e.g. when socialising with family
25. Profound negativity about everything, expresses dissatisfaction with present life but does nothing to change it, says there is nothing about his life he wouldn’t change but then denies he means me and DC - it feels like he resents me for being basically happy with our life (marriage is another story)

Manipulative:
26. Attempts to guilt trip when I won’t agree to do as he wants (on anything from holiday destinations to drinking a cup of tea at the same time he wants to)
27. Impossible to have a straightforward argument as he twists what I say, makes diversionary accusations, accuses me of being unable to take a joke, of being unable to communicate
28. Doesn’t make me afraid as such, but I am wary of broaching certain topics because I can predict his reaction and can’t be bothered dealing with it, and I will often just deal with things rather than discuss with/tell him
29. Used to push buttons until I lost my temper, then would magically be happy once I had got angry (still tries to push buttons but I no longer react)
30. Rapidly become his “normal” self after an argument and tells me I am unreasonable if I take a while to calm down
31. Gaslights me – will claim I didn’t tell him something, or that I misinterpreted what he meant, e.g. will say “I said x but I meant y”, says I misinterpret complaints as him wanting me to deal with/solve the problem

Verbal put-downs:
32. Doesn’t overtly tell me I am fat, stupid etc, but

• does occasionally comment if I choose to have a small treat while we’re out having coffee, or express surprise if I say I don’t want a cake etc.
• does repeatedly (and predictably) run down music, books, films, TV etc that he knows I like

33. Minimises or invalidates my reactions to his behaviour – says I don’t react to something in the “right” way, or that he “can’t understand” why I’m angry or resentful 34. Uses derogatory language to invalidate my opinion, e.g. “no sensible person would think that, no intelligent person would say that” 35. Criticises and makes fun of my sources of support, e.g. MN 36. Is sometimes rude to or ignores those he perceives as inferior

So - is some of this EA or is he "just" a selfish, immature, insecure arse?

(And thank you to anyone who's managed to wade through all that!)

From the sound of it some his behaviour is calculated and some isn't: some is unthinking selfishness, and some is intentional manipulation.

I agree it doesn't have to be abusive to justify ending it. However for reasons that I don't really want to go into, leaving would have major negative consequences for the DC. It feels like I have to have "enough" of a reason to justify doing that to them, when at the moment they're pretty happy.

He keeps saying that I'm not putting in enough effort to "try to save the marriage". And he's right, I'm not. I'm not physically affectionate (he bailed on that side of things long ago), I don't pander to him, I don't even talk to him much because it feels like any topic of conversation will be steered by him towards something negative. If we separate, he will blame it on my behaviour. I need to be as certain as I can be that he's not right.

How can you be physically affectionate with such an arsehole?

What's he doing to save the marriage? Is he taking on more childcare and chores, is he treating you much better?

Of course he will blame you if you separate, but it's rubbish and it's irrelevant: it's part and parcel of precisely what's wrong with him.

Being around a father like this, and a relationship like this, is very negative for the children, seeing the way he treats you - your children will internalise that and reproduce the same pattern.

He sounds awful, and I can't see how you could "meet him half-way" on these things - does that mean putting up with his crap for a while, but not very long?

Just wondering generally, though, if EA is by definition deliberate, as in the more obviously abusive relationships I've come across, the person seems to lack any self-awareness - unable to even realise their behaviour might look bad, even. And I know I've done some things and only realised later that I was doing it to be manipulative.

trackrBird, the question of self-esteem is interesting. In this case, I think H feels entitled to certain levels of achievement, respect, help from others etc, and when he doesn't get them, he feels inadequate, hence the low self-esteem. So then many of his actions are designed to preserve his world-view that he is worth the achievements etc that he expects, because that raises his self-esteem.

You have enough of a reason: your husband is unbearable, this relationship is draining the life out of you. If you stay in it you will end up an empty shell. That's never going to produce a happy environment for the children long term.

What are you children going to learn about relationships from this? You are their role models.

Surely a well balanced, highly confident adult would not feel the need to bully a woman, so I can't quite agree that he is all things confident and just wants his own way - if he was really that relaxed in his own body, he'd surely not be such a nasty bastard.

Where you are going wrong, OP is in thinking that there is something you can do to change his behaviour.

You can't.

You cannot change anything. Only he can do that. And he's not going to. He won't even come close to admitting that any of these behaviours are unreasonable, wrong or abusive.

The only choice you have is whether to stay or leave.

His way of thinking is warped. You know that, we know that, even he may know it.

But the point is that he isn't willing to make any changes.

He won't and you can't.

I take it that, if it weren't for the children you would leave him?

List the 'negative consequences' and work through how you can tackle these problems.

Seriously it's not good for the DCs living in that kind of environment. Things would have to get pretty bad to be worse.

Is move house/move schools/share room/less money/less time with you what you are thinking? Because these aren't insurmountable.

How can you be physically affectionate with such an arsehole?

This is in fact the mental slap I give myself if I start to feel guilty about it.

He is doing a bit more childcare and chores. And a bit more of it is unprompted. With my cynical hat on, these seems like "just enough" changes designed to reel me back in.

I don't deny that being exposed to our relationship in its current form may well have negative consequences for the DCs. However because of our particular circumstances leaving will also have negative consequences for them that are potentially just as bad, just a different flavour of negative. It is a horrible equation to have to weigh up.

I read half way through your list and thought that sounds horrendous.

Whatever the consequences of you leaving they will be worth it for you to be out of this controlling mans clutches. This is the example of a relationship that you are setting for your DCs. Would you like your sons to act like this or your daughters to be treated like this?

Because that will happen - there are enough examples on this board of women who have known no different so perpetuate the cycle.

You can break it.

Your children will thank you for it

It is EA and probably FA. Don't let this be your life.

I think overly low and overly high self esteem go hand in hand. You can see this in extremis in narcissistic personality disorder.

The high self esteem compensates for low self esteem - but at the same time high self esteem contributes to the low by all kinds of unrealistic and entitled expectations of the world which, unfulfilled, leave the person disappointed, embittered and feeling like a failure.

Whether he is Emotionally Abusive or not, if you are feeling badly enough put upon to bother writing the list, then clearly you are not happy with the relationship. And he will not change, just because you know you are unhappy.

So what are you left with?

This flavour of negative affects you throughout your life, is taken with you into your future relationship and passed on to the next generation.

I don't think there is anything I can do to change his behaviour. He is responsible for the way he acts, he is the one that needs to change, and at the moment he doesn't want to. However I suppose do think it is possible that there is something I could do to make him want to change his behaviour iyswim.

It's impossible to advise about a split with regard to the consequences for the children without knowing the detail (I'm not asking you to fill in), so I can't help you there. But I find it hard to imagine a consequence as bad as this being your dad 24/7.

However I suppose do think it is possible that there is something I could do to make him want to change his behaviour iyswim.

No, there isn't.

Think about it - what sort of thing could you do make him want to change. If you suck it up he'll think he was right all along, if you challenge him he'll know he was right all along.

Would you leave him if it wasn't for the children?

I think the only thing likely to make him step up is if you call it a day. But even then, the change it may prompt him will only last as long as it takes to get you back onside.

Tbh I think the whole change line is flogging a dead horse.

ravenmum I agree. But the consequences of negatives like no longer being able to afford to live near good schools, so that DC have to attend schools where they don't achieve their potential or are bullied, can be equally far-reaching.

I thought that might be what you meant - even if you had to relocate to a completely new area - it should be possible to be near a good state school.

If you suck it up he'll think he was right all along, if you challenge him he'll know he was right all along.

Fairenuff, too true. And yes, if it weren't for DCs I would leave. I am not staying "for them", though. I guess atm I am staying while I work out how leaving could be done to minimise consequences for the DCs.

The simple questions to ask yourself are:

1. does he make you feel good about yourself?
2. does he make you life easier?
3. is your life richer for having him in it?

If the answers are "no", then I have to wonder what benefits you actually get from the relationship.

As other posters have said, labels of EA aside, he clearly sees himself as more important than you, and probably also has confidence issues which he deals with by putting you down.

I abhor little people who think that the only way to make themselves feel bigger is by putting other people down.

Twinkelstein I'm in London. It is depressingly likely that I wouldn't be able to afford to move near a school as good as the DC's current one and certain that I couldn't afford to stay where we are now.

"Good" doesn't necessarily equal expensive, though. Or do you mean that you know which school they would have to go to, and it would be awful? At least with a bad school, you can complain to the headmaster, change schools if necessary. It feels like you might be able to control the situation. (My school wasn't great AND the atmosphere bad at home; I don't think I've mentioned my school once to my psychotherapist...)

Annie, the answers are all no. In fact the answer to 1) is that I make me feel good about myself, and the answer to 2) is that I work at making my life easier.