EA or "just" nonabusive selfish behaviour?

[DeletedThreadGotMeThinking]

Am a longtime lurker and occasional poster, have nc for this as I'm worried about being identifiable.

I was reading That Thread That Was Deleted yesterday and realised that it is quite important to me to work out whether my H is actually emotionally abusive, or whether he is "just" selfish and immature. It matters I think because if it is only selfishness/immaturity than maybe I should keep trying to make him see my point of view and meet him half-way on trying to improve our relationship. OTOH is he is EA then lots of lurking in Relationships suggests to me that such an approach is unlikely to succeed.

I'm struggling to categorise his behaviour because a lot of it is subtle, and because he doesn't do some of the cardinal things that are described on EA threads. So I would greatly appreciate those with experience of EA looking at my shit list and giving their opinion one way or the other. I haven't given too much detail about specific incidents as H knows I use MN.

So here goes.

Things he doesn't do

1. Doesn’t shout at me, call me names, swear or rant at me on a regular basis (a couple of isolated incidents as exceptions).
2. Doesn’t express jealousy of other men or try to control what I wear.
3. Doesn’t limit my access to money.
4. Doesn’t limit contact with family.
5. Doesn’t make me feel scared or afraid.
6. I’m don’t blame myself for his behaviour, and don’t think it is my fault.

Things he does do
Blaming:

1. Tells me it is my fault that he gets angry if I disagree with him, that I “provoked an argument”.
2. Tells me I am unsupportive if I disagree with him, or if I don’t agree with him in the right way

Controlling:

1. Doesn’t openly limit contact with friends, but does

• makes evening socialising difficult because he gets annoyed about having to change his own routine to suit me, e.g. come home early to look after DCs.
• express reluctance to socialise with others on weekends, sometimes cancels and leaves me to attend alone

10. Doesn’t openly limit my access to money, but does

• make occasional threats about needing to get more involved with finances to check what I am doing (I do all finance stuff because he won’t), or speculating that I am saving money in secret
• makes it difficult to take big joint financial decisions because he will get stroppy about being made to engage
• is annoyed/displeased if he finds out that I have spent more on something than he has or have bought something that he doesn’t have (and we’re only talking cheap smartphone or new glasses, nothing extravagant), acts as if I have cheated him out of something
• use finances to manipulate me into doing things with or for him (e.g. threatening to spend a large amount of money if I don’t go with him to help him buy clothes)
• regards family money as his, gets annoyed at the suggestion that he can’t spend family income how he likes or that he has to limit his spending to a budget

11. Will say he has decided to go in to work late/at weekends (voluntary hours, not scheduled shifts), will insist that I facilitate this (e.g. by cooking a meal early) then not go in to work after all
12. Makes it difficult to go out and do things on weekends, e.g. by sleeping late, but gets annoyed at the suggestion that I/DCs might go out and do things by ourselves
13. Won’t give me space after an argument, insists on following me around,
14. Wants to control the space in the house for his own agenda – e.g. we have a large collection of books, and he gets angry at the suggestion that wall space should be used for anything other than bookcases, even though as a household we need space for other things, also gets angry when compromise solutions (like ebooks) are suggested
15. Gets angry when I won’t do normal everyday tasks with or for him, e,g, laundry, making lunch, buying underwear (he has never done these things for me)
16. Insisted that I get him a particular birthday gift “because otherwise you probably won’t get me anything” and hasn’t unpacked it 6 months later
17. Gets angry if I arrange domestic routines to suit my needs (I work flexible hours to fit in around DCs and need to work in the evening to make up time) rather than his (workaholic who always stays at work and comes home when it suits him and never tells me in advance what time he’ll be home)

Poor boundaries:
18. Has been known to say that he feels we are so close that we are like one person
19. Refuses to respect my right to use of personal objects, e.g. will drink from a water glass I’m using or use my bath towel despite me asking him not to
20. Sees nothing wrong with snacking on/using up food he knows was bought specifically for me or DCs, despite having his own particular snacks bought in the weekly shop

Passive-aggressive:
21. Will repeatedly perform a household task so poorly it has to be redone or claim he doesn’t know how to do it
22. Insists on “resolving” a problem in the quickest way possible (to avoid having to spend time on it or deal with other people) without accepting the need to find sensible and economical solutions.
23. Responds poorly to criticism, gets defensive, comes up with counter-accusations
24. Quietly makes provocative remarks (e.g. put-downs) in situations when I can’t easily respond, e.g. when socialising with family
25. Profound negativity about everything, expresses dissatisfaction with present life but does nothing to change it, says there is nothing about his life he wouldn’t change but then denies he means me and DC - it feels like he resents me for being basically happy with our life (marriage is another story)

Manipulative:
26. Attempts to guilt trip when I won’t agree to do as he wants (on anything from holiday destinations to drinking a cup of tea at the same time he wants to)
27. Impossible to have a straightforward argument as he twists what I say, makes diversionary accusations, accuses me of being unable to take a joke, of being unable to communicate
28. Doesn’t make me afraid as such, but I am wary of broaching certain topics because I can predict his reaction and can’t be bothered dealing with it, and I will often just deal with things rather than discuss with/tell him
29. Used to push buttons until I lost my temper, then would magically be happy once I had got angry (still tries to push buttons but I no longer react)
30. Rapidly become his “normal” self after an argument and tells me I am unreasonable if I take a while to calm down
31. Gaslights me – will claim I didn’t tell him something, or that I misinterpreted what he meant, e.g. will say “I said x but I meant y”, says I misinterpret complaints as him wanting me to deal with/solve the problem

Verbal put-downs:
32. Doesn’t overtly tell me I am fat, stupid etc, but

• does occasionally comment if I choose to have a small treat while we’re out having coffee, or express surprise if I say I don’t want a cake etc.
• does repeatedly (and predictably) run down music, books, films, TV etc that he knows I like

33. Minimises or invalidates my reactions to his behaviour – says I don’t react to something in the “right” way, or that he “can’t understand” why I’m angry or resentful
34. Uses derogatory language to invalidate my opinion, e.g. “no sensible person would think that, no intelligent person would say that”
35. Criticises and makes fun of my sources of support, e.g. MN
36. Is sometimes rude to or ignores those he perceives as inferior

So - is some of this EA or is he "just" a selfish, immature, insecure arse?

(And thank you to anyone who's managed to wade through all that!)

[ravenmum]

It is a poor choice you have there though

[AndTheBandPlayedOn]

I thought of narcissism as well, recognized from my " lovely " sister. Have you read Lundy Bancroft's book: Why Does He Do That? It is about control (and could have been Why Does She Do That).

My counsellors told me that it was not mentally healthy for me to be around my sister. Perhaps counselling for you, alone, would be a validating experience (since your husband will never validate you).

but I have deliberately worked at recognising a lot of the tactics and not engaging or responding

With my sister, I found (and even said) that I needed to shift into a special gear to deal with her. The "not engaging or responding" is what I did too, but it was, for me, sort of a dynamic of me going into a state of dormancy. Going dormant...in my own life. This is self-induced depression. Done often enough, it will stick and become difficult to find your normal self. It is very dangerous ground to tread. Recovery of (your) mental health will take much longer than you can imagine.

What are the ages of your dc? They will undoubtedly be affected by their father's behavior as you probably know from the Stately Homes thread.

I could leave with a clear conscience
Of course you can leave with a clear conscience. This "Death By Ten Thousand Cuts" campaign against you is enough reason to leave.
You, and only you, are in control of your conscience. Same with guilt. Others may try to lay it on you, but that does not mean you need to receive it.

[DeletedThreadGotMeThinking]

ravenmum in a funny way it would be easier if the current school wasn't so great...

It's just that London rents/house prices near good schools tend to be expensive. (Actually London rents/house prices near bad schools tend to be expensive, but lets not go there.)

[DeletedThreadGotMeThinking]

And the BandPlayedOn I know what you mean about shifting into a special gear. When things are particularly bad I often feel like I am donning some sort of mental protective armour just to get through conversations.

I have read Lundy, and various others. I have also had some individual counselling, which was good for venting but less good for arriving at a definite future plan.

[Twinklestein]

I live in London too, I agree the prices are crazy & there are a lot of crap schools.

How about commutable distance? Kent - has all its grammar schools, yet the area around Sevenoaks is only 30mins train to Waterloo/Victoria. Surrey has good state schools. Some friends have successfully relocated to Bath and Bristol - good schools and more property for your money.

I guess your work is based in London?

[DeletedThreadGotMeThinking]

Yes, work is in London - a great job and vacancies in my field aren't exactly thick on the ground at the moment. Moving out adds transport expenses but it's another option to add to the list, alongside shared ownership, renting but investing in a small buy-to-let.

I certainly don't just accept that this is how things have to be. I am actively thinking through ways separation could be achieved with minimal detriment to DCs. I tell myself I am being prudent, but it may just be that I lack the essential guts to leave and manage the consequences.

[Hmmm2014]

OP, not a lot of time to write - but just wanted to say the description of his behaviours is awful. There are dozens of reasons to leave in there. Personally I would say many of those listed are abusive, yes.

As for schools - it is likely I would think that growing up in this environment would be far worse for your DCs' future than going to a school that isn't as good as their current one. Please don't let this be the model your children have for their future relationships.

[Twinklestein]

A decision this important inevitably takes time to think through and work up to putting into action. Of course you need considerable time to think through all options.

Many women in a comparable situations do the same thing, although ime generally - the husband does something dreadful which catalyses the decision.

You might one day just wake up & think 'that's it, I've had enough'.

[mosaicone]

My ex was like this.
He was

1. Doesn’t shout at me, call me names, swear or rant at me on a regular basis (a couple of isolated incidents as exceptions). would say "youre no supermodel but youve got me to make you look good for example.
   
2. Doesn’t express jealousy of other men or try to control what I wear. no jealousy as he didnt think I could do better - would look at clothes Id got out and say "youre going to wear that? really? you?"
   
3. Doesn’t limit my access to money. We didnt have joint accounts, but he spent all his on alcohol anyway.
   
4. Doesn’t limit contact with family. totally totally did this, we are all so much closer since I LTB
   
5. Doesn’t make me feel scared or afraid. I walked on eggshells for our entire relationship
   
6. I’m don’t blame myself for his behaviour, and don’t think it is my fault. HE tried to make me feel this way
   

He was also an alcoholic to throw more in to the mix! I made SO many excuses for him - when he's lovely it's great etc, but he was devestatingly EA. I didnt use mumsnet then (he belittled FB ALL the time though) but if I had I would have realised all this so much earliuer- whether I would have broken up with him sooner I dont know.

I do know that there isnt a single part of your what he does do that my partner now does. And I know people have their quirks and ways but 30 points that make you uncomfortable is too many! Sure some of them might be overlookable if you were happy most of the time, but youre not.
My ex did the above stuff I said plus numbers 9,11,12,13,17, 18, 23-36. Crikey I cant believe what I put up with. Add alcoholism to that. And Id defend him on that until the final day. Idiot (sorry not you, just opening it all up is mind blowing).

It took taking me to breaking point to get him out and I expect that is what will happen here. On the face of it it doesnt look like there is much to salvage here but I cant advise on that, you know your relationship.

I have read the whole thread but Ive forgotten? Do you have support? PArents or family or friends who can help you make a plan of action?

Id also be tempted to rewrite that OP as an email to him, with links to evidence of EA and FA to confront him with what kind of person he is.

Lastly, your children. Bless them. They dont need this and nor do you, you deserve soooo much better. My ex made me believe no one else would ever have me "Who would take on a single mum with three children". Well I met my now partner and he did! And I took on his two and we are a very happy large modern family now and as I said before, not one thing on that whole list applies to him.

Hugs deleted - if no RL support, keep posting, Ill be checking for updates as this really tugged at my heart x xx x

[weatherall]

For goodness sake! Good schools are the icing on the cake of a good childhood. Get the cake right. Stop worrying about the extras.

Move into a 1 bed where you sleep in the living room.

Make compromises.

This current environment isn't good. There are worse things for DCs than renting!

[DeletedThreadGotMeThinking]

mosiacone, thank you for posting. I'm sorry that you have experienced so many of the same behaviours, but in a weird way it is a relief to know I'm not the only one.

Tempting though it is to show him this thread and the responses, I know it wouldn't do much good. He is very disparaging about MN (I suspect because he sees it as a threat) and wouldn't give any credence to it.

Not much RL support. No friends I am close enough to discuss this with, and no family around (they're generally supportive, just live a very long way away). I have found MN great for support, and think I have come a long way just by lurking and reading what others have to say. Just 2 years ago I would have said he was basically a good man who was under a lot of pressure and how could I make him see it wasn't fair to take it out on me. I've moved on a bit from that opinion now.

If my marriage ends I think it is likely I will remain single. I am shy - and a bit weird . Not being negative, just realistic. Single would still be preferable to what I have now. Actually I think the shyness was probably one of the reasons I ended up with H. Shy people tend to put bigger barriers to friendship/intimacy up than other people. People with a healthy respect for boundaries will back off if they sense you feel awkward or uncomfortable, whereas someone who doesn't respect boundaries is likely to steam right on through them and make a connection.

[trackrBird]

Deleted, maybe consider some individual counselling with a different type of counsellor? They don't all follow the receptive, listening, what-do-YOU-think model - which is valuable, but might not be what you need now. Off the top of my head, humanistic, existential or solution focused therapy might be other approaches worth considering.

In London, you are well placed to find diverse approaches to therapy.

Perhaps also consider an appointment with a solicitor, to explore practical options if you did choose to split. This might give you some clarity.

Maybe it's also worth reading up on narcissism just for your own information, if you haven't already covered it. No-one here is suggesting armchair diagnoses, but there is no harm in learning more if you choose.

And of course, post here for help.

[DeletedThreadGotMeThinking]

Good schools are the icing on the cake of a good childhood. Get the cake right. Stop worrying about the extras.

I'm sorry but I disagree with you weatherall. The place where children spend half their waking lives, where they do most of their socialising, which contributes to establishing attitudes to learning and a work ethic, and which helps to determine their future employment is very important. Yes, home life and family attitudes matter for all those things too, but in my opinion school is cake, not an extra.

[mosaicone]

Hey youre welcome, Im actually on holiday but I so stongly felt I had to post!!
FWIW if someone had suggested I showed my ex a thread that Id started about him, or listed his behaviours for him he would have laughed in myface (he did that quite often anyway :( )

If I can comfort in any way then let me know - I wish someone could have for me. In hindsight now all my friends tell me how unsuited we were, how selfish and horrible he was - THANKS GUYS! I do understand why they didnt have it out with me. He was part of our friendship group, MY friendship group and he has no one now. Well he probably has managed to salvage the few friends he had and hopefully has made others.

I dont think he will ever know or understand what he put me through. And even if faced with it written down he would still now tell me I was wrong and gaslight me.
Not that Im ever ever going to do that, I am content 100% that leaving him was the only option, he was an arsehole!!!

And staying single is no bad thing. I hastily jumped in with my now dp - to tell the truth meeting him was a catalyst to leave the ex. It has worked out amazingly and if it wasnt for him and a couple of other factors at the time, perhaps I would now be on MN, asking for help.

Keep on keeping on is what they say. How old are your DC?

[DeletedThreadGotMeThinking]

trackrBird with hindsight my counsellor was a bit too much the listening, sympathetic-head-tilt type whereas I think I need more of a get-a grip-woman kick-up-the-arse variety. Money's a bit tight atm but yes, it might be worth looking into other types of counsellors in future.

[HansieLove]

Okay, I just skimmed. But he sounds exhausting and too much work. I'd leave him just because he follows you around in arguments.

[whatdoesittake48]

My counsellor very gently steered me towards working out for myself what was going on and then working out ways to deal with it. There was no LTB from her - just told me to work through it at my own pace and make up my mind once I had all the facts.

I found it incredibly useful - but it is an ongoing process. Worth the money, but not a short solution.

[ZuluInJozi]

I'm not sure if some of the thing I'm writing have been mention. Did not read entire thread as am at work, so no time.

Yes he is a calculated and manipulativie abusive man. Even what appears as if he doesn't control(money and your social life) he still finds a way to control. Classic abusive thrive on control. He makes you feel bad about using money if he had no say. Abusers often want to distance partners from their source of support eg family, his subtle put downs when with family is another way he wants to exhaust when with family so that you do not look forward to seeing them and in the end stop seeing. The same could be said about him mocking your other sources of support such as mumsnet.

At 13,its normally when he is aware he might have went too far(he knows he has to be subtle, so that he can always deny he is abusive) so does not want you to have time to think and really see him for what he is

The sad thing is they never change and I hope you don't find yourself trying to make him see that he is abusive, he knows it but will deny and pretend to have changed and in the end he will make you pay for daring to accuse him of abuse

[MexicanSpringtime]

Just one point, why is it necessary for you and your children to leave the family home?

[DeletedThreadGotMeThinking]

Mexican, unfortunately income won't stretch to cover current mortgage plus another place for H unless he compromises massively on standard of accommodation, something he will almost certainly be unwilling to do.

[DeletedThreadGotMeThinking]

And actually, even if he is willing to compromise, it would make better financial sense to sell up and fund 2 smaller, cheaper properties

[weatherall]

Deleted- DCs only spend 15% of their time in school.

You don't have to move school when you move area. You might just have a long commute. I commuted 3 hours a day for school. Sure I didn't like it but I survived.

A good school will not compensate for them seeing such an unhappy marriage.

Would you be able to he a bursary as a single parent? Have you thought of this? How old are DCs?

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

What do you get out of this relationship now?. What keeps you within this still?

These behaviours that you describe are typical ones of power and control and these lie at the heart of abuse.

What do you think your children are learning from the two of you about relationships here, currently you are showing them that this is acceptable to you. Is this the role model of a relationship you really want them to emulate themselves when adults?.

[iloverunning36]

My husband is totally like this and the 2 outbursts I have posted on here about received unanimous LTB' s. Like your husband though the really bad outbursts are not every week so most of the time I can just get on with it. I have tried to leave several times now but he has talked me round and is now repeatedly telling me how disappointed he is about my lack of commitment that I'd be willing to leave so easily without trying to make it work. It is so very hard when you are in this situation,no advice, just hope it gets better for you

[Primaryteach87]

I wouldn't say this is abuse but it's clearly not a healthy relationship that is making you happy. Try living it out in your head how it would feel to leave him? Is this what you want? Do you feel like if it was abusive it would be easier to leave? Are you disappointed by someone ( giving their very limited) opinion that it isn't abuse? If so, it may be time to call it a day. On the other hand if you feel relieved, then maybe it's worth continuing to try. Does he realise how serious this is?