EA or "just" nonabusive selfish behaviour?

[DeletedThreadGotMeThinking]

Am a longtime lurker and occasional poster, have nc for this as I'm worried about being identifiable.

I was reading That Thread That Was Deleted yesterday and realised that it is quite important to me to work out whether my H is actually emotionally abusive, or whether he is "just" selfish and immature. It matters I think because if it is only selfishness/immaturity than maybe I should keep trying to make him see my point of view and meet him half-way on trying to improve our relationship. OTOH is he is EA then lots of lurking in Relationships suggests to me that such an approach is unlikely to succeed.

I'm struggling to categorise his behaviour because a lot of it is subtle, and because he doesn't do some of the cardinal things that are described on EA threads. So I would greatly appreciate those with experience of EA looking at my shit list and giving their opinion one way or the other. I haven't given too much detail about specific incidents as H knows I use MN.

So here goes.

Things he doesn't do

1. Doesn’t shout at me, call me names, swear or rant at me on a regular basis (a couple of isolated incidents as exceptions).
2. Doesn’t express jealousy of other men or try to control what I wear.
3. Doesn’t limit my access to money.
4. Doesn’t limit contact with family.
5. Doesn’t make me feel scared or afraid.
6. I’m don’t blame myself for his behaviour, and don’t think it is my fault.

Things he does do
Blaming:

1. Tells me it is my fault that he gets angry if I disagree with him, that I “provoked an argument”.
2. Tells me I am unsupportive if I disagree with him, or if I don’t agree with him in the right way

Controlling:

1. Doesn’t openly limit contact with friends, but does

• makes evening socialising difficult because he gets annoyed about having to change his own routine to suit me, e.g. come home early to look after DCs.
• express reluctance to socialise with others on weekends, sometimes cancels and leaves me to attend alone

10. Doesn’t openly limit my access to money, but does

• make occasional threats about needing to get more involved with finances to check what I am doing (I do all finance stuff because he won’t), or speculating that I am saving money in secret
• makes it difficult to take big joint financial decisions because he will get stroppy about being made to engage
• is annoyed/displeased if he finds out that I have spent more on something than he has or have bought something that he doesn’t have (and we’re only talking cheap smartphone or new glasses, nothing extravagant), acts as if I have cheated him out of something
• use finances to manipulate me into doing things with or for him (e.g. threatening to spend a large amount of money if I don’t go with him to help him buy clothes)
• regards family money as his, gets annoyed at the suggestion that he can’t spend family income how he likes or that he has to limit his spending to a budget

11. Will say he has decided to go in to work late/at weekends (voluntary hours, not scheduled shifts), will insist that I facilitate this (e.g. by cooking a meal early) then not go in to work after all
12. Makes it difficult to go out and do things on weekends, e.g. by sleeping late, but gets annoyed at the suggestion that I/DCs might go out and do things by ourselves
13. Won’t give me space after an argument, insists on following me around,
14. Wants to control the space in the house for his own agenda – e.g. we have a large collection of books, and he gets angry at the suggestion that wall space should be used for anything other than bookcases, even though as a household we need space for other things, also gets angry when compromise solutions (like ebooks) are suggested
15. Gets angry when I won’t do normal everyday tasks with or for him, e,g, laundry, making lunch, buying underwear (he has never done these things for me)
16. Insisted that I get him a particular birthday gift “because otherwise you probably won’t get me anything” and hasn’t unpacked it 6 months later
17. Gets angry if I arrange domestic routines to suit my needs (I work flexible hours to fit in around DCs and need to work in the evening to make up time) rather than his (workaholic who always stays at work and comes home when it suits him and never tells me in advance what time he’ll be home)

Poor boundaries:
18. Has been known to say that he feels we are so close that we are like one person
19. Refuses to respect my right to use of personal objects, e.g. will drink from a water glass I’m using or use my bath towel despite me asking him not to
20. Sees nothing wrong with snacking on/using up food he knows was bought specifically for me or DCs, despite having his own particular snacks bought in the weekly shop

Passive-aggressive:
21. Will repeatedly perform a household task so poorly it has to be redone or claim he doesn’t know how to do it
22. Insists on “resolving” a problem in the quickest way possible (to avoid having to spend time on it or deal with other people) without accepting the need to find sensible and economical solutions.
23. Responds poorly to criticism, gets defensive, comes up with counter-accusations
24. Quietly makes provocative remarks (e.g. put-downs) in situations when I can’t easily respond, e.g. when socialising with family
25. Profound negativity about everything, expresses dissatisfaction with present life but does nothing to change it, says there is nothing about his life he wouldn’t change but then denies he means me and DC - it feels like he resents me for being basically happy with our life (marriage is another story)

Manipulative:
26. Attempts to guilt trip when I won’t agree to do as he wants (on anything from holiday destinations to drinking a cup of tea at the same time he wants to)
27. Impossible to have a straightforward argument as he twists what I say, makes diversionary accusations, accuses me of being unable to take a joke, of being unable to communicate
28. Doesn’t make me afraid as such, but I am wary of broaching certain topics because I can predict his reaction and can’t be bothered dealing with it, and I will often just deal with things rather than discuss with/tell him
29. Used to push buttons until I lost my temper, then would magically be happy once I had got angry (still tries to push buttons but I no longer react)
30. Rapidly become his “normal” self after an argument and tells me I am unreasonable if I take a while to calm down
31. Gaslights me – will claim I didn’t tell him something, or that I misinterpreted what he meant, e.g. will say “I said x but I meant y”, says I misinterpret complaints as him wanting me to deal with/solve the problem

Verbal put-downs:
32. Doesn’t overtly tell me I am fat, stupid etc, but

• does occasionally comment if I choose to have a small treat while we’re out having coffee, or express surprise if I say I don’t want a cake etc.
• does repeatedly (and predictably) run down music, books, films, TV etc that he knows I like

33. Minimises or invalidates my reactions to his behaviour – says I don’t react to something in the “right” way, or that he “can’t understand” why I’m angry or resentful
34. Uses derogatory language to invalidate my opinion, e.g. “no sensible person would think that, no intelligent person would say that”
35. Criticises and makes fun of my sources of support, e.g. MN
36. Is sometimes rude to or ignores those he perceives as inferior

So - is some of this EA or is he "just" a selfish, immature, insecure arse?

(And thank you to anyone who's managed to wade through all that!)

[Fairenuff]

I think it's clear that you are biding your time OP and that it's more a question of 'when' rather than 'if'. Keep making those plans, when that day comes you will be ready for it.

I agree with lots of other posters suggesting the sooner the better because we all have your best interests at heart and know how much happier you would be away from him. However, you do not have yourself as a priority so maybe that's something else to add to you list to think about x

[Catzeyess]

I haven't read the full thread so sorry if this has already been covered but my question is IF he could change would you still care enough to try? Or is your relationship so damaged you just don't want to deal with it anymore (which would be completely understandable!)

If the first is the case I think you should specifically list the behaviour you want to be changed and then say something like 'I love you, and really want our marriage to work, but I am completely miserable with how things are, if you are serious about staying with me you will stop behaving like this and show him the list. Pause for him to blow up etc etc don't react just tell him to leave for a few months get counselling etc and tell him he has a choice, fix the behaviour or loose you. This worked with my mum and dad and they are now very happy, but my mum had to stand up to him like that for him to change. And he did!

Second case I think you need to leave him before he does more damage.

The only option I think you don't have is to let it remain the same, not healthy for any of you, especially your DCs.

I'm sorry you are going through this

[DeletedThreadGotMeThinking]

Glenshee not depressed according to dr.

TiramiSue I'm so sorry to hear that you are in a similar position. Not sure how much clarity I have but I did find it very helpful to try to characterise the behaviour that bothered me and write it down. Otherwise if I needed to articulate how things aren't right I would tend to come up with specific instances that seem trivial (e.g. he runs down books and music that I like), but which aren't actually trivial because they are part of a wider pattern.

I can recommend trying to write a list, sharing on here if you feel like it. I find that defining the behaviour that bothers me makes it easier to identify as it happening irl, and then I am more likely to remain level-headed and not get drawn into it.

[Glenshee]

Deleted, is your DH depressed?

[TiramiSue]

i am watching this thread with huge interest as this is me - thank you OP for articulating this problem with your dh so well, with such clarity. I am in the same boat, to a greater or lesser extent, depending on the viewpoint.

[hellsbellsmelons]

It feels like I have to have "enough" of a reason
Sorry, this jumped out at me.

a reason!!
Wow - you've listed 36 reasons in your OP and more since!
What more do you want?

He sounds vile and how you manage to live like this is astounding.
This will be your life for the next 10, 20, 30 years.
Is that what you want???

You get one life, make the most of it. You were not put on this planet to pander to this fuckwit! You were put here to make the most of your life. Not suffer on a daily basis at the hands of someone you can easily escape from.

[DeletedThreadGotMeThinking]

Cogito I realise that I might come across as being a little obsessed by school, but actually I was using it to illustrate how, for the DCs, separation would not be as simple as H moving out and the rest of their lives continuing as before. There would be major upheaval, with long-term implications (for example, all my extended family live abroad and it is unlikely that we'd be able to afford to travel to see them).

I do understand that the current circumstances will be affecting my DCs. I really do. My prime concern in all of this is to limit as many of the negatives for them as possible. I agree it probably doesn't get much easier for DC to cope with separation as they get older. However in my particular case there is a very real possibility that within a fairly short time scale my income will improve to the point where some of the upheaval associated with separation could be minimised for the DCs.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

I'm not sure if it's been covered but you mentioned your DCs a lot in terms of their schooling and how that will go on to impact their future lives and careers. It's understandable that you don't want to disrupt them but, at the same time, please don't underestimate just how destructive it can be for DCs to live under the same roof as two parents that clearly dislike each other. It doesn't get much easier for DCs to see parents split when they are older... there is never a good time, in other words. It's also a very difficult thing to square away the idea that Mum or Dad opted to remain emotionally abused largely for their benefit. Big responsibility that can weigh very heavily on little shoulders.

Finally, if their model of a successful adult relationship is one characterised by the behaviour you describe, there is a big risk that they will either believe they have to put up with ill treatment from a partner in future, or that they can behave that way towards a partner themselves. Neither of which is very reassuring.

[DeletedThreadGotMeThinking]

Thanks to all who have posted, I really appreciate your comments. Having a "Where on earth is your self-respect, woman?" moment today.

MN is indeed a great source of support. As a lurker, when I find a post that resonates with me or gives clarity on some behaviour of H's, I tend to copy the comments into a (growing) collection that I keep on file - it is so helpful to be able to look over when I'm doubting myself.

I am gradually informing myself about future options. It does feel like my thoughts and emotions are evolving, that this is an ongoing process rather than being stuck (certainly hope that's not just an illusion).

[Fairenuff]

OP I would not recommend showing him this thread or even letting him know that you have support here.

Think of mners as your army. Hundreds of us here ready to help and support you with advice that is invaluable. Have you taken legal advice yet? It's worth just finding out where you would stand financially should you decide to separate.

Gather information that is helpful to you, it will make you feel more confident. Just start making preparations. It sounds like you have been doing some research of your own, keep doing that. The more you know and understand, the easier it will be to come to terms with.

[vezzie]

He sounds extremely annoying about getting his own way all the time and using various forms of belittlement and manipulation to make this happen, but I think whether or not this is EA is something that is hard to diagnose from a distance.

It seems to me that you only want a diagnosis because you want a prognosis - you want to know whether to try to change things or to walk. Why not try to change things, with a time limit?

Either you will succeed in changing enough that you feel happier, or you won't.

Just having his own way above yours all the time - and the subtle contempt for you relative to him expressed by this - is normal behaviour among a lot of men. It is really fucking annoying but I am not sure it is classified as abuse or not. But who cares?

[Primaryteach87]

I wouldn't say this is abuse but it's clearly not a healthy relationship that is making you happy. Try living it out in your head how it would feel to leave him? Is this what you want? Do you feel like if it was abusive it would be easier to leave? Are you disappointed by someone ( giving their very limited) opinion that it isn't abuse? If so, it may be time to call it a day. On the other hand if you feel relieved, then maybe it's worth continuing to try. Does he realise how serious this is?

[iloverunning36]

My husband is totally like this and the 2 outbursts I have posted on here about received unanimous LTB' s. Like your husband though the really bad outbursts are not every week so most of the time I can just get on with it. I have tried to leave several times now but he has talked me round and is now repeatedly telling me how disappointed he is about my lack of commitment that I'd be willing to leave so easily without trying to make it work. It is so very hard when you are in this situation,no advice, just hope it gets better for you

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

What do you get out of this relationship now?. What keeps you within this still?

These behaviours that you describe are typical ones of power and control and these lie at the heart of abuse.

What do you think your children are learning from the two of you about relationships here, currently you are showing them that this is acceptable to you. Is this the role model of a relationship you really want them to emulate themselves when adults?.

[weatherall]

Deleted- DCs only spend 15% of their time in school.

You don't have to move school when you move area. You might just have a long commute. I commuted 3 hours a day for school. Sure I didn't like it but I survived.

A good school will not compensate for them seeing such an unhappy marriage.

Would you be able to he a bursary as a single parent? Have you thought of this? How old are DCs?

[DeletedThreadGotMeThinking]

And actually, even if he is willing to compromise, it would make better financial sense to sell up and fund 2 smaller, cheaper properties

[DeletedThreadGotMeThinking]

Mexican, unfortunately income won't stretch to cover current mortgage plus another place for H unless he compromises massively on standard of accommodation, something he will almost certainly be unwilling to do.

[MexicanSpringtime]

Just one point, why is it necessary for you and your children to leave the family home?

[ZuluInJozi]

I'm not sure if some of the thing I'm writing have been mention. Did not read entire thread as am at work, so no time.

Yes he is a calculated and manipulativie abusive man. Even what appears as if he doesn't control(money and your social life) he still finds a way to control. Classic abusive thrive on control. He makes you feel bad about using money if he had no say. Abusers often want to distance partners from their source of support eg family, his subtle put downs when with family is another way he wants to exhaust when with family so that you do not look forward to seeing them and in the end stop seeing. The same could be said about him mocking your other sources of support such as mumsnet.

At 13,its normally when he is aware he might have went too far(he knows he has to be subtle, so that he can always deny he is abusive) so does not want you to have time to think and really see him for what he is

The sad thing is they never change and I hope you don't find yourself trying to make him see that he is abusive, he knows it but will deny and pretend to have changed and in the end he will make you pay for daring to accuse him of abuse

[whatdoesittake48]

My counsellor very gently steered me towards working out for myself what was going on and then working out ways to deal with it. There was no LTB from her - just told me to work through it at my own pace and make up my mind once I had all the facts.

I found it incredibly useful - but it is an ongoing process. Worth the money, but not a short solution.

[HansieLove]

Okay, I just skimmed. But he sounds exhausting and too much work. I'd leave him just because he follows you around in arguments.

[DeletedThreadGotMeThinking]

trackrBird with hindsight my counsellor was a bit too much the listening, sympathetic-head-tilt type whereas I think I need more of a get-a grip-woman kick-up-the-arse variety. Money's a bit tight atm but yes, it might be worth looking into other types of counsellors in future.

[mosaicone]

Hey youre welcome, Im actually on holiday but I so stongly felt I had to post!!
FWIW if someone had suggested I showed my ex a thread that Id started about him, or listed his behaviours for him he would have laughed in myface (he did that quite often anyway :( )

If I can comfort in any way then let me know - I wish someone could have for me. In hindsight now all my friends tell me how unsuited we were, how selfish and horrible he was - THANKS GUYS! I do understand why they didnt have it out with me. He was part of our friendship group, MY friendship group and he has no one now. Well he probably has managed to salvage the few friends he had and hopefully has made others.

I dont think he will ever know or understand what he put me through. And even if faced with it written down he would still now tell me I was wrong and gaslight me.
Not that Im ever ever going to do that, I am content 100% that leaving him was the only option, he was an arsehole!!!

And staying single is no bad thing. I hastily jumped in with my now dp - to tell the truth meeting him was a catalyst to leave the ex. It has worked out amazingly and if it wasnt for him and a couple of other factors at the time, perhaps I would now be on MN, asking for help.

Keep on keeping on is what they say. How old are your DC?

[DeletedThreadGotMeThinking]

Good schools are the icing on the cake of a good childhood. Get the cake right. Stop worrying about the extras.

I'm sorry but I disagree with you weatherall. The place where children spend half their waking lives, where they do most of their socialising, which contributes to establishing attitudes to learning and a work ethic, and which helps to determine their future employment is very important. Yes, home life and family attitudes matter for all those things too, but in my opinion school is cake, not an extra.

[trackrBird]

Deleted, maybe consider some individual counselling with a different type of counsellor? They don't all follow the receptive, listening, what-do-YOU-think model - which is valuable, but might not be what you need now. Off the top of my head, humanistic, existential or solution focused therapy might be other approaches worth considering.

In London, you are well placed to find diverse approaches to therapy.

Perhaps also consider an appointment with a solicitor, to explore practical options if you did choose to split. This might give you some clarity.

Maybe it's also worth reading up on narcissism just for your own information, if you haven't already covered it. No-one here is suggesting armchair diagnoses, but there is no harm in learning more if you choose.

And of course, post here for help.