"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

It's July 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Newday it was me who asked after you. I hope you are feeling OK, it's hard work having parents like this and if you're like me, you'll feel quite up and down. Are you having any counselling? Are you still in contact with your parents?
I was pleased to read about your new look

I have done something that has changed how I look and it has annoyed them so very very much. I love the change, my husband and children love it and i'm not changing back this time to suit them. I have taken a very small stand for myself. Good for you, try to harness some of that feeling when you can
xxx

I was told by a client on Friday I was amazing at what I do and how lucky she is to know me and my skills/talent. that was nice to hear. Do you doubt yourself? If I get good feedback I'm always secretly surprised and feel like I don't really deserve it, I feel so much more deserving of criticism, the result of my fucked up childhood and my mother wasn't even out and out abusive growing up.
Therapy is helping with my little "you're a pile of crap" inner voice, but it's a hard pattern to break.

Hope everyone has had a good weekend. So, it's been a few days since I posted. It's all kicked off here! My mum and dsis seem to have broken contact following an argument. I've not spoken to my dsis yet, but it seems she is upset with mum not caring enough, and some issues with Christmas, also some jealousy over mums attention spent on me and my family, which sounds a little familiar! Anyway my mum handled things pretty badly and it ended up getting physical :(
I'm a bit all over the place, trying not to get too involved. They are no contact with each other now, and honestly I think that's best all round for them both.

So glad to have found this thread, both myself & DH are children of narcissistic parents.

My own mother was emotionally unavailable when I was little, never telling me she loved me. My parents split when I was quite young and as the eldest child I was made to be the stand in second parent, taking responsibility for my sibling. My father quickly moved on and remarried, my stepmother was drastically different and constantly told us she loved us, to try to establish a bond I think. This drew me to her, I was desparate to be loved and told that.

Unfortunately, my stepmother is a narcissist and would tell me things I was too young to understand and shoukd never have been told about my parents divorced I think to paint my dad well and my mum poorly. What it did was give me a strong sense of emotional responsibility for other people's feeling from a very young age. It is a trait I hate, 2 family members can have a fight which has nothing to do with me and by one or both telling me about it I feel a duty to them, almost responsible for thei feelings, it's weird.

My dad is very passive in every way and does everything he can for an easy life so gets involved in very little.

A few years ago I could take no more of the guilt trips, manipulation, etc from my stepmother, we had a huge argument and to my surprise, things have been fine since. I have stepped back and they make no effort, which suits me, the less I am around her, the less anxious I feel.

With my own mother, things have changed, she is now NC from my sibling, this was between them and hugely difficult for me as I took on a lot of the turmoil and also it was hard to see two people I loved at war, but NC is effectively better for both of them so I try to get in with it. My mother is still emotionally unavailable but the birth of my DD has brought out something lovely in her, it is wonderful to see but fills me with guilt as I know my sibling will never see this side to here, I feel terrible guilt that I get to see this and they don't, even though the situation is not of my doing, emotional responsibility again.

So, sorry a bit long, the problem now is that I have married a child of a narcissist, my DH is the scapegoat and his sister is the golden child, my MIL treats my husband so poorly, I have a hard time dealing with it. He says its just the way she is, I can see it for what it is, thankfully he does stand up to her which is good, but because he puts me and my DD first she is now starting to use me as the scapegoat, and implying sneakily that I am influencing him. I can see right through her but this is exhausting. I have dealt with this sort of behaviour my whole life, I am now an adult and naively as a child, thought things would be different when I could make my own choices.

Her behaviour sends me back in time, makes me feel like a child again, I am strongly considering minimal contact, however, the problem is, my DH works evenings and weekends so if my DD sees my MIL it is generally with me. I will make the effort at the weekend to take her round, I don't want my DD to feel she has missed out or that I have kept her away. Golden child has a DD also who MIL sees every day, of course she is the favoured DGC also, I don't want my DD to feel this different, but I suppose she probably will anyway, whether I take her round or not.

If I do minimal contact it will give my MIL more amunition, i.e. Will back up her claims that I influence him "see, ohweeeell never brings DGC to see me" etc. MIL also has enabler parents who sympathise with her "plight" and justify her behaviour. For example, by MIL throws tantrums we don't spend all of christmas with her. We explain we will see her and other parents equally, she and her parents say we are being unfair and that the day is important to MIL while refusing to acknowledge that DD has other grandparents to see also and the day is important to some of them too.

Sorry, very long, phew...

Why are you even considering minimal contact with such a ghastly woman?. That is a question that needs your further consideration. Societal convention is not enough to keep such relationships going.

The worst MIL can do is winge incessantly and send her winged monkeys over to you to do her bidding. You and your DH need to present a united front and avoid such people including her enablers at all costs.

You need to keep your child, your most precious of resources, completely and utterly away from these narcissists. Apart from being deplorably bad as parents anyway they are also terrible at being grandparents.

If you find these people too toxic for you to deal with, its the self same deal for your both vulnerable and defenceless child. You get nothing at all positive out of any relationship with these people and nor does your child. You both have to keep your child away from such malign influences; narc grandparents tend to either over value or under value the relationship with their grandchildren. They are also not above trying to "steal" the heart of their grandchild by bribing them with gifts and she will use your child to poison her against you. You do not want that happening.

www.lightshouse.org/acon-page.html#axzz3GfqjYgTP

The above link may be useful to you as you are an adult child of a narcissist.

attlia, thank you so much for your response. Of course the logical answer would likely be no contact.

Ironically, the guilt I would feel for keeping my daughter away from her paternal grandmother and great grandparents would probably destroy me. My DH is pretty much already minimal contact with his mother due to his working hours. So I am considering pulling back as I am the one available on the same days they are.

My DH says he could never stop his grandparents from seeing DD, they are elderly and says something like that would be so hard for them to deal with.

I appreciate this effectively leaves is in a catch 22 situation. They won't change so we need to change something, which is why I am considering minimal contact. I also don't think I could put my DD through a family split and the consequences of that. My nephew is now at the stage of asking my brother why he is NC with my mother, effectively asking why my daughter has a granny and he doesn't, etc

I know his pretty much makes me weak and playing into their hands, needless to says thank you for the link, I could identify with the entirety of it, no surprise.

My MIL threw a tantrum last week, the enablers were on her side, we haven't spoken since, I won't be making the first move. However, my husband has written a letter to her, outlining what is acceptable. He wants to send it to her explaining he won't stand for any more of this behaviour from her (she screamed at him on the phone and hung up because he told her "no"). I suppose I am hoping this letter will have the desired affect, letting her know he won't stand for these tantrums and I am considering minimal contact to enforce that we are capable of speaking up and changing the status quo, effectively giving her a chance to consider her actions. I appreciate we are likely clutching at straws.

No that particular brand of guilt won't destroy you; what will destroy you ultimately and your DD as well is your DD having any sort of relationship with his and your parents because they will use her as supply. Sod feeling guilty as well, guilt is a useless emotion.

These people have never felt guilty at all.

Your words are all very much typical as to how adult children of narcissists actually feel (that's also why I posted that particular link earlier).

There is no good reason whatsoever for this young person to have any sort of relationship with these toxic people. You and your H cannot deal with either set of parents, how do you think she will manage?. She will not and the damage will go forward in her for years to come.

You do need to change something yes; you need to let go of the fiction that these people will somehow apologise and or become nicer people to you all because they simply will not do so. You've been always trained and conditioned by these people to put them first and you dead last. Narcissists are so much trouble that only people with prior training i.e. those who were raised by narcissists themselves get seriously involved with them.

Narcissists have normal, even superior, intellectual development while remaining emotionally and morally immature. Dealing with them can give you the sense of trying to have a reasonable discussion with a very clever six-year-old -- this is an age when normal children are grandiose and exhibitionistic, when they are very resistant to taking the blame for their own misbehaviour, when they understand what the rules are (e.g., that lying, cheating, and stealing are prohibited) but are still trying to wriggle out of accepting those rules for themselves. This is the year, by the way, when children were traditionally thought to reach the age of reason and when first communions (and first confessions) were made.

Having a narcissist for a mother is a lot like living under the supervision of a six-year-old. Narcissists are always pretending, and with a narcissistic mother it's a lot like, "Let's play house. I'll pretend to be the mother and you pretend to be the baby," though, as the baby, you'll be expected to act like a doll (keep smiling, no matter what) and you'll be treated like a doll -- as an inanimate object, as a toy to be manipulated, dressed and undressed, walked around and have words put in your mouth; something that can be broken but not hurt, something that will be dropped and forgotten when when something more interesting comes along.

Minimal contact will not likely work out well either because narcissists ignore any boundary you care to set them.

Do not send any letter. Your H's letter will go against you and he both, the will twist it to make it all out to be your faults again. Toddlers have tantrums, what you are seeing in her really is narcissistic rage, not a tantrum. Toddlers as well grow up, you are basically dealing with someone whose emotional development ceased at around 6 years of age.

Re your nephew I give you this excerpt:-

"You will find that the children will eventually stop mentioning the loss of the narcissist grandparent if you are not bringing it up. If you are talking about your Nparent in the hearing of your children then you are inviting them to keep talking about it, too. I can not over-emphasize the need for your explanation to a younger child to be calm, pragmatic, measured and short. Long explanations make you look defensive which will tend to peak the interest of the child and prompt him to push the issue. You can gauge what is appropriate information depending on the age of the child. If the child is older and has experienced or witnessed the Ngrandparent's nastiness in action then you can say more.

Young children are not known for their long attention spans. This works in your favour. With younger children you have the advantage of distraction. It is easy enough to get the child's mind off onto another track. Every parent has done the distraction routine at one time or another. "Mommy, I want to see Nasty Nan today!" "Honey, we aren't going to see Nasty Nan today because we get to go to the park and eat ice cream." (Make up fun time on the spot if necessary for this distraction.) "Yay!!" says the kid and off we go. Subject changed, kid distracted. In time, Nasty Nan will fade from memory. Any bonding that may have occurred will dissipate in the process of time.

Remember, you are the parent. You're older and therefore more experienced which is the point of being the parent. The child is dependent on your good sense and protective wisdom. You're smarter than your child; use that to your advantage (such as using the distraction method). You are the final authority. This is not a negotiable issue. Kidlet doesn't get to decide on this one because they lack the understanding, wisdom, experience and good sense that, hopefully, you have. So don't look like you're unsure or open to quibble. You'll undermine yourself if you look anything but firm and resolved on it. Use your advantages as parent to smooth the effects of the cut-off. Over time this will all quiet down. Kids tend to accept what is. It will happen more quickly if you follow the above advice.

Most of all, do not operate from a fearful mindset. Don't be afraid of your children's possible, or actual, reactions. Don't be afraid that you are depriving them of something important by cutting off a set of grandparents. You are only "depriving" them of bad things. Reassure yourself with that truth. Family is not everything. Blood is not binding. You are escaping the Mob Family. What should connect us is how we treat each other with love and respect. This is always a good lesson to teach our little ones. If any part of you is unsure of your decision then, for Pete's sake, don't show it. Your resoluteness will go a long way toward reassuring your children that you are acting in everyone's best interest. If your children know that you love them, they are going to feel reassured that this decision is also based in your love for them. They will find an added sense of security to know that you, as their parent, are willing to protect them even at the cost of your relationship with your own parent(s). Rather than being fearful, see the plentiful opportunities in this. You are protecting your children from someone whom you've experienced as being abusive; you are reassuring your children that you are in charge and are watchful for their best interests (creates deep sense of security); you can teach healthy family values which include that family doesn't get a pass for abusive behaviour; you can strengthen and reinforce the healthy relationships in your extended family. Kids are less likely to feel like there is a void in their life if you fill it with good things.

Cutting off from your narcissist parent is a good thing. No need to act otherwise. Your children will sense it is a good thing by how you behave. Model how you want them to respond and it is likely they will imitate. Don't be afraid of their questions. Kids are amazingly resilient and well-equipped to handle truth. Parents are supposed to protect their progeny. If your child doesn't agree with how you go about that don't worry. They will often disagree with your decisions for their best interests. Nothing new there. It is your job as parent to make the tough decisions. If you know it is the right decision then proceed with confidence. Showing confidence is a quality of leadership. As a parent you are supposed to be a leader. Lead...and they will likely follow".

fillie - I've read back a couple of pages, and your situation sounds a lot like mine. My DSis lives with DM, DM does everything for her, but the relationship is really dysfunctional. Part of the way DSis works it is to make me the bad guy, constantly - literally everything I do or say is given the most negative interpretation possible, and it clouds and poisons the whole relationship I have with both of my parents. It's done as a deliberate tactic to stop them from seeing that she absorbs literally 98% of their attention (not to mention the practical and financial support she gets, which are colossal).

My mother is very very indifferent to me. She takes absolutely no interest in my life, while telling me every detail of how wonderful my sister is at work etc. She takes no pride in anything I achieve. She offers no support at all, even emotionally. I have been struggling badly with health problems lately, and she literally is nowhere to be seen even on an emotional level.

Having had years of hurt about it - not to mention paranoia - I have now reached a point where I feel not 'fine' with it, but certainly that it's something I can live with. I still wish I had a better relationship with my folks, but I realise and have accepted that it just isn't to be. I'm left with some lingering sadness and anger, and I don't think those emotions will ever vanish, but I'm okay getting on with things in my own way now.

That sounds quite similar! I'm very invested in my own family life, and as you say okay getting on with things in my own way for the most part. This whole upset between my mum and dsis has dragged me back into the hurt again, but I think I must have already been hurting because I'd posted here before that all kicked off! I just really hope my mum can pull herself away from dsis and find her own peace with it all. Someone was saying on here how unusual it is for the child to have such control over the mother, not sure who now, but I realised that my mum, even though I feel she has created a lot of the problems, has been the victim of abuse here. I don't know if she can stay away from dsis, really hope so, but I think if dsis called and said "let's forget this happened" my mum would go back to how things were :( shame.
You're right the lingering sadness and anger will probably always be there, it's got to be better than raw fear and pain though I reckon!

Damn straight on the emotional side of things fillie!! I don't think it goes away, I just think it manageable without corroding you from the inside out with anger or hatred or sadness or hurt. I remember someone very wise said to me once that grief and loss were like obstacles in our path that we couldn't remove, so we grow around them. So that grief and loss shapes us, but we go forward - maybe in a slightly different way or a different direction - but we go on growing. I think it's kind of like that, really.

One of the things I really appreciate about this thread is reading others' experiences and getting away from those people who have less longstanding, dysfunctional relationships who say 'You're a grown up, why does it bother you, there must be something wrong with you/your relationship/your lifestyle' etc etc etc I find that a tremendously unhelpful thing to hear.

I agree with you, btw, that there is an abuse on both sides in these situations. It is like a loop that turns around and around, with one side unhealthily feeding the other but also unhealthily needing the other. We are better off outside of that loop than inside it, even if that entails a distance from it.

Gosh, so many new people, it will take me a while to catch up. Here’s just a start:

sharkwave From your first post, the thing that struck me most was that your DM couldn’t even remember what she’d tried to call you about, but she was still furious that she hadn’t been able to get hold of you. So that means, it really doesn’t matter what she needs you for, as long as you are completely at her beck and call 24/7.

I see others have suggested you go LC with her quite drastically but perhaps you could wean her off gradually, reducing the contact bit by bit. Presumably you have call recognition on your mobile; they all seem to have it – if not, can you get a cheapie new one? Do you have an answerphone on your mobile and home phones? Can you try telling her to leave a message and you’ll get back to her – and gradually leaving it longer and longer to call back, or not at all if it’s something really trivial?

You say she has 3 or 4 hols per year – who is she going with, the other times? Of course you shouldn’t have to take her with you on all your family holidays. I mean, every so often would be kind, but not every time. How does your DH feel about her; do they get on well or is her constant presence causing problems between you and DH?

You are not being a bad daughter if you reduce your contact with her and her dependence on you. If she’s critical, suggest she visits your brother instead.

ifuknow I hope that hospice bed comes available very soon (although I suppose that means I’m hoping for someone to die, but I don’t know them so I don’t feel too bad about that.)

edgar It sounds like you’re realising that the issues from your childhood are affecting your adult relationships, so it will hopefully be a very good thing for you to work through the parent issues now. Welcome!

Attila Wishing strength to you and your DH at this difficult time.

Welcome all new Stately Homers! ohweeel you've had some great advice from Attila (i have read and reread that bit about telling kids about NC, it's great).
Have you read up on FOG (Fear Obligation Guilt)? Beacuse you seem mired in it. "Ironically, the guilt I would feel for keeping my daughter away from her paternal grandmother and great grandparents would probably destroy me.
My DH says he could never stop his grandparents from seeing DD, they are elderly and says something like that would be so hard for them to deal with."
Fuck them! Sorry, but that's their problem for being such total gits! I bet they wouldn't actually find it hard, there would be a load of wailing and then they'd get angry and go a kind of NC with you to punish you.
They don't respect your family, ergo they don't get to be a part of it.

Thanks attila for your detailed response, I have read it over and over, good I shall look into FOG, the more reading I do the more I can identify with it seems.

I keep considering alternatives, as the relationship, minimal though it is with my stepmum and father works now. We argued and she makes little effort to see us, she never did before to be fair but she did used to laden me with guilt about not seeing them enough, etc. now I might get a "how is DD?" text rather than a loaded "miss you..." Text. When I do see them, maybe 4 times a year, the conversation is light, just pleasantries. She pushed me extremely far in our fight a few years ago and I was brutally honest, we didn't speak for months, she eventually admitted to a few things. I appreciate not everyone is capable of this, I'm certainly not sure my mil is but I keep hoping it is an option.

NC would be extreme for me, I would have had to tried absolutely everything in the book, I'm not sure my DH would ever agree to NC. He was NC with his father as a child because my MIL deemed that he and his sister were better off not knowing him. He now has a good relationship with his dad, after reconnecting as an adult, i don't think my mil was trying to protect my DH and his sister at all, I think it was all about control.

Thank you for all of your words, I know I am fully 'in it' and want to find a way to cope, I don't feel NC would be right for us, but that's not to say it wouldn't be one day, perhaps one day it will and I will say I should have done it years ago... I certainly feel fully immersed in fog, that is for sure!!

They don't respect your family, ergo they don't get to be a part of it.
I love that, makes complete sense and is so simple.
Outofcontrol2014 - much better outside the loop! I'm so glad I found this thread, in rl people often don't understand because for one thing it's hard to describe a life long family dynamic face to face, here it feels like people have experienced it for themselves and see through to your story.

Still too many people to catch up with!

TiredNow What about the email from your mother upset you?

PrettyPictures I hope your counselling appt comes through soon.

worryworker I hope the therapy will help you sort out the issues and help you decide whether to maintain NC or start to have more contact again. You need your DH to back you up, though, so I hope he will do, even if he doesn’t agree with your decision.

Margarettt Have you had any counselling or therapy? You sound as if you really need some help dealing with your mother. Is there any way you can get out from her home? How did this happen - she made it happen, but you can make it un-happen. Please keep posting and I hope someone wiser than I will be able to give you some good advice.

Sunnyrainy Calling you a bitch is not the behaviour of a loving mother. Some of what you have written has struck a chord with me, too, although perhaps in a more subtle form with me. (See, Humpty , I’m at it now, “Me too, me too!”)

I am just starting to find out about emotional abuse and that my parents were not very good. Mainly emotionally neglectful and very critical. The guilt is always there

It was all about public image and I was spoiling that image and perfect family ideal

My mum loved to be snarky about her friends or relatives who were having problems with their children – the girl who got pregnant, the boy who got into drugs – so she needed me to be perfect so that she could stay morally superior. I’m sure she would deny that she enjoyed feeling superior but I’m equally sure that it’s true.

I’m reading my way through Toxic Parents (about 1/3 of the way in) and I was expecting only the “Controlling parents” chapter to be relevant to me, but I obediently read all the others, as the author recommended, and found the “verbally abusive parents” was full of “aha” moments. The demand for perfection and always feeling like a failure and disappointment, and that adult children of parents like these either drive themselves into the ground in an attempt to prove the parents wrong or else the perfectionism leads to procrastination and paralysis. That latter one is me down to a T. I’ve always felt that I wasn’t “just lazy” but there’s something blocking me, preventing me from getting on with things, but the end result is the same, so the outward appearance is that I’m a very lazy person.

goodtobetter i'm due to start counselling in two weeks, at the moment am feeling bit nervous about it all.
I agree that its hard and yes I do have up and down days. at the moment i'm on an upward climb so that's good but it's always there that it could go downhill at any time. i'm still in contact and have reduced it the last few months from 2 or 3 times a day to 2-3 times a week. this will get reduced more I hope.

every time I look in the mirror I have a 'yes' moment as in yes I did it, I changed my look. this is helping keep that quite big 'your rubbish' voice quiet.

they have heard that one of my clients is quite well to do (its a lord and lady) and I think they're looking to be introduced to them as lots of questions were asked and bit of disbelief that they (clients) would come to me. i have no intention of making any such introductions.

the funny thing is my parents used to go to various posh(ish) do's and I was never a guest though my sibling was as I might let the team down as it was said to me, now its me that's dealing with all the people that attend the do's and without giving my job away incase it outs me I know more about them than a lot of people and am very trusted by them.

hope your still believing in yourself and the ''your rubbish'' voice is being quiet. if not I really hope your doing the best you can.
it's not much but you've made a difference to me..i wrote the above to you this evening instead of eating a load of rubbish so for that alone thank you.

to everyone else here that I've been slowly reading about I hope you are all ok.

Haven't got time to catch up properly, but newday that sounds really positive. I bet your new look is awesome.

Waves to everyone else.

What a lovely, positive message newday! I'm glad you feel that you are on an upward climb at the moment, hang on to that and keep your family away as much as possible as that will help you not spiral down again. I'm trying to remember my "If they don't respect my family they don't get to be part of it" mantra as much as possible and am feeling on a bit of an upward surge atm too.
Your new look sounds like it's helping, making you feel good and maybe acting as a kind of psychological "two fingers" to them as well, a kind of symbolic breaking away from the old you that was ground down by them? I think that's great.
Post as often as you want, there's always someone around to listen. xxx

Hi everyone, I've never posted here before and I'm feeling a bit nervous. I need some advice about my relationship with my mother, I have the feeling it's not particularly normal and at the moment it's quite upsetting.

There have been previous incidents and I think the current one is stemming mostly from that. The background being that my fiancé and I have rejected financial help for our wedding because my parents were becoming very controlling.

Since then my partner and I have been struggling to find a situation to suit us and our new budget whilst trying to keep a lot of the traditions as well as our parents relatively happy. To be honest I've been struggling to see a celebration of our marriage as a happy occasion as it's caused so much upset previously and we've only ever reached the initial planning stages.

Recently my partner and I went to a wedding fair at our venue of choice on a bit of a whim as we had already seen it but we wanted to discuss a few ideas with the planner. We had signed in, picked up our free beverages and had just entered the venue when the planner came over and said she think she's just spoken to my mum and she had been a bit upset and left suddenly. I then got an angry text from 'my dad' that sounded like it was from my mum. I was told that if I wanted them to be there on the day I needed to sort something out asap.

I went over for 'peace talks' where I felt mainly attacked for not including my mother in a process that hadn't even begun - though they didn't seem to believe this or the fact that us visiting the venue had been a spur of the moment decision. I was blamed for telling people about our plans that they didn't know of although I'd tried to keep them as up to date as possible without getting too involved.

Since that talk it has been my birthday, my mother mentioned it had been hard picking out my card and present as she had been angry at me. Other than that the family meal went well.

A while passed and then I received a phone call while I was at work. I disconnected the call as I was on a work call and then received another call that I again disconnected. The phone rang again, it was commented on by my colleague on the other end of the line and I had to apologise and end the call as the one from my mother could be urgent. I answered my mobile and was greeted by "did you not get my other calls?" immediately putting me on the defensive, I told her I was currently at work and had been on the phone. I was then treated to an accusation that I hadn't talked to her for three weeks and an angry spiel about how I'd changed and how she'd spoken to friends (her friends, not mine, who have known me since I was little but I have had almost no adult interaction with) and they agreed that I was a worse person now. I told her I didn't have time to deal with this and told her I needed to get back to work so she hung up in me.

She then text me and said I could ring her when I finished work. I felt upset for most of the day - struggling to remain professional in a job which is relatively new. I waited until I was alone and called her. I didn't wait until I got home as I missed the bus and by the time I be able to talk would be too late. I found a quiet bench of a public park and set myself up for a long chat.

I started by apologising for the long time since I had contacted her. I pointed out that if it had been so long she was able to call me too. This set her off, she shouldn't have to make all the effort. I am a selfish and lazy individual. I only come over if there's the possibility of free food. I have no friends, I should have female friends I regularly talk to on the phone. What's happened to me? WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO ME? I said a couple of hurtful, but truthful, things like I didn't know how to talk to her, or what to talk to her about, I don't like fighting and that seems to be the majority of what we do. And that she seems angry at me about things like the wedding and my relationships and I don't know what I can do to fix this.

Now please let me explain, we don't regularly talk on the phone, I have never received a daily or weekly call to see how I've been getting on, it's never been part of our routine. I normally go over every couple of weeks to walk the dogs and say hi. She normally asks if we want to stay for dinner and we normally accept. I know I should make more effort but mostly with them it's awkward and stifled.

We ended the call with her saying she's going to take a step back from me. I don't really understand why other than the fact that she didn't like that I was trying to explain why I don't talk to her, talking to her is like walking through a minefield. I've always felt responsible and governed by her emotions. The wedding is the only thing I've ever stuck to my guns on and I'm still trying to include her, there's just nothing to include her in yet.

After writing this mammoth essay I'm not sure what I really want. I want to stop feeling so upset, I want to have a normal loving relationship with my mother, and I don't want to feel so alone in this.

Thank you for reading so far, I'm sorry there's so much wedding stuff in here, it just seems to have brought all the gremlins out the woodwork.

Welcome Mode, you won't feel alone here.

What you want i.e. a normal loving relationship with your mother (and her enabler of a H so I would not let him at all off the hook either) is simply not going to happen. I am sorry to tell you that but you need to let go of the notion that they will change and somehow become nicer people, particularly if you do all their bidding. They will not.

The resources at the start of this thread are helpful and I would suggest you read "Toxic Parents" as a starting point along with "If you had controlling parents" written by Dr Dan Neuharth.

It is NOT your fault they are like this, their own birth families did that lot of damage to them. Controlling behaviours are abusive behaviours and women like your mother always but always need a willing enabler to help them, step forward your dad. He is a weak man who has acted primarily out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. He has completely failed to protect you from his wife's mad excesses of behaviour and is likely very much like her. Also such weak men need someone to idolise.

You need to further raise your boundaries a lot higher than they are now; you have done well to date by rejecting offers of financial "help" (in your parents case more control) re your wedding. I would also block her number from both your work and mobile phones; if she cannot or will not behave decently then she gets to have or play no part of your life whatsoever. That's a daunting thought but really she and her enabler H will give you no peace otherwise. They think that their way alone is best, they feel you are not capable even though you are now an adult who can make her own decisions.

You seem mired in FOG - fear, obligation and guilt with regards to them which is not altogether surprising.

You do not have to seek their approval any more, not that they would ever freely give it anyway. Have the wedding day you as a couple both want, you can make your own traditions and you do not have to keep your parents happy!. I would not invite any of your family to your wedding because they could all too easily make a joyous occasion like that either all about them and continue to criticise every aspect of your special day. Let her moan, winge and take a further step back from you; she is doing you a facvour by doing that. And as for her friends telling her that they think you are so called difficult, I would state that your mother is outright lying to you to make her own pathetic self feel better.

thebrideishigh my mother and I haven't spoken for a a few months (end of May I think) since she came up to see me, asked about wedding plans and then got so fixated on one tiny detail I had mentioned we would like that she threw a strop saying that unless we changed it, she could not be there.
The thing she got upset about isn't actually what she thinks it might be but I couldn't explain it to her at the time (midnight on the day she's been up) as my baby son was having a raging temperature, crying and we were waiting for the OOH doctor to come see him but she was sending more and more nasty texts demanding I speak to her about this minor thing over a year away because it had "upset her"

So since then, I have been NC, tbf its a pattern for us - things will be OK, even good then I'll say/do something "wrong", she'll take major offence at it and text/email all sorts of awful things, I'll ignore as to not "rock the boat" or make it any worse and then eventually we'll speak again, and repeat
Its just I'm getting tired of it now, and my sons are getting older, she's starting to say things about them tbh and I need to protect them.

Its so hard though isn't it? She's ill (both mental and physical illness although she smokes, doesn't exercise etc and is much much "older" than her years, she's just turned 50 but acts as though she's in her 80s and reminds me all the time how ill she is/how I make her more ill/how shes got to cut me out of her life so she can concentrate on getting "better")
and she's got no-one, my parents divorced nearly 15 years ago, she's never been in a proper relationship since, she just sits at home day after day with her dog (and my brother but that's a whole other story!) chain smoking and watching the soaps and thinking they're real life

I feel so so sad that she can't be a "proper" mother and grandmother, my DC have no grandparents now (both DPs parents deceased and my father left when they divorced when I was 13 and I haven't seen him since)

This recent email was more of the same - how she'd sacrificed her health/career/life for us but we threw it back in her face, how ungrateful I am, how ill she is, how she's giving me "one last chance" always fucking one last chance for the last decade! , how because I am a heathen who doesn't share her festivals she wont be sending me any Christmas/Easter presents but she will for the kids (I want to stop this?), how I clearly don't love DP and tricked him into pregnancy with my eldest (actually she's got a bit of an obsession with the conception of my children?) and how she's cant come to the wedding knowing its all a sham etc

I'm tired now (hence the username) and don't know what to do/where to go from here, there's so much more I could write (I'm sure like everyone on here) but that is some of it
Sorry for waffling on and thanks of you made it this far

Thanks Attila, that's given me a lot to think about. Has this ever ended well for anyone? I am NC at the moment and it's making me unhappy. I much prefer it when we're all getting along and I wish we could all start back at purely being civil to each other and build a relationship from there.

What Tired has said sounds very familiar. I had to go over and 'do something' when my mum was at a wedding fair we didn't expect her to be at and acted irrationally, she admitted she was acting irrationally about that but blamed me because she didn't know what was going on and thought I might have taken my stbMiL instead of her. These ideas spiral out of control with her and then I feel like I'm being punished for what could of happened or so she thinks. I'm tired of this too.

My dad is the one telling her not to talk to me if it's upsetting her. He doesn't seem to realise how attacked I feel, sees no excuse for the defensiveness. It's hurtful that he seems to think I'm the one being abusive when the only thing I'm really guilty of is non-action.

Hi Modest, I'm quite new too, I assure you you've come to the tight place.
I'm not sure what I really want. I want to stop feeling so upset, I want to have a normal loving relationship with my mother, and I don't want to feel so alone in this. Well, you are not alone. I don't have direct experience of what you're describing but there are lots of people here to help.
I've come to realise and accept that sometimes we can't have the relationships we'd like with people. I can't have a close relationship with my dsis but the contact we do have is now respectful and warm. You might not be able to have that loving relationship that you want with your mother, but you can try a new way, a better more even way, maybe she's giving you some distance rather than having a fall out.
Weddings are a nightmare for bringing out all the deepest engrained problems within a family!
Tirednow wow, just shows how a tiny insignificant detail in a wedding can tip a family off the edge they'd managed to teeter on! Sounds like a horrible lot of blame coming your way from your mother, when it seems she's the main problem in her life. Must be exhausting going over and over in the same cycle has it always been that way?

right place not tight!!!