"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

It's July 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Hi, new here, lurked for a while but feel the need to post now.
Iforgottoteklyou you awoke some feelings in me and made me realise I'm caught up in a situation I don't know how to break.
I have little contact, minimal even, with my sister following a blow up between us a few years back. I had objected to her poor life choices leading to my other family members having to financially prop up her lifestyle and home aspirations. We get along ok now, we see each other at family events but don't really speak much other than that, I think she knows I love her and am here if ever she really needs me, but she doesn't have any influence on my day to day life and I don't have the fear of the arguments and turbulence of our past relationship.
She has some health problems that limit her abilities to run a 'normal' life, she relies on my mum to help her a lot. I feel that she has a lot of personality problems too, she can be very manipulative, is a bully, sometimes aggressive and violent. Every time her life settles down she makes some rash decision and it all falls apart with the family picking up the pieces.
My mum still has regular contact with her, generally this amounts to propping sister up with running her home, looking after her dgc, running errands etc, my mum goes over about twice a week. All fine by me so long as my mum is treated well and not bullied, and she doesn't run herself ragged looking after dsis' family and home.
Only I routinely get phone calls from my mum, approx every 3 months, in tears saying dsis has abused or upset her, shouted, slammed doors, been unreasonable, wants no contact anymore or has been generally vile to her.
I am always sympathetic, offer advice on mending herself, and she's got good at just leaving when the abuse starts.
However I'm getting to the end of my ability to offer advice to minimise contact, I tell her every time that she needs to redefine her relationship with dsis, the way I have, she needs to keep some distance and instill some respect into their relationship. My mum always sighs and says that's not going to happen is it, I have to go, she's my dd etc. I understand, but I can't help feeling like I get the dregs of my mums time and affection, I'm no bother to mum on the whole, I'm pretty loving and supportive, we don't rely on her for anything even though there are times when we really could use some support, she's busy running round after my dsis. I don't know how mum can keep doing all this for dsis when she's so horrible to her, why she doesn't spend more time with us when we give her so much love and support. When I feel this way I always think I'm just being a brat and my poor dsis does need the help more than I do but it doesn't mean I don't need any help at all.
How can I keep on supporting my mum when she's putting herself in the line of fire? She puts herself out every week to help dsis, only to suffer abuse for it.

I should add, this is posted in this thread as I feel my dsis has most of the problems she has due to an unstable family situation and childhood, upbringing by my parents and then step father was not ideal.

fillie are you me?! My DSis is also a woman-child, or has been until relatively recently, allowing/needing my M and DF to bail her out financially and practically.

Before I decided to go no/low contact with M, it was the main topic of conversation. TBF, my M does kind of stalk/obsess over my DSis, so it's 6 of one, but I absolutely identify with the 'dregs of time and affection' feeling. It's sad, and so hard to deal with. My DSis is now reasonably sorted, I think, but time will tell. How is your DM in other areas? Does she need a 'project' to feel happy? I do think my M does it from narc reasons, but also because she needs to be occupied, and this is very all-consuming...

attilla that's so hard. I don't know the background of your PIL and your relationship, but it sounds like a tightrope to walk wrt your DH and your relationship with him. Thinking of you.

Attilla I'd try to persuade DH not to get drawn in if FIL does turn out to be ill. It sounds as if he's trying to make a drama of going for tests which could well be negative - why would you want to worry your family until you had the test results?
I've made that mistake of getting drawn
into DM's illness, putting my own life on hold this year. I rushed to be at her side this week when she appeared to have taken a turn for the worse and guess what? She's made quite a recovery now I've made arrangements to stay with her.
I feel like a complete mug, she's played me like a fiddle, and fooled the doctor too. I thought I would be too smart to let it happen but emotions clouded my judgement.
Now I've got to tell everyone who has been sending me good wishes that it was a false alarm. I'm going back home, she can go into the hospice and stay there now. My DC were distraught thinking the their Gran was about to die, now they'll have to go through it again when the time does come. I hate her for hurting them.

Oh god ifuknow

I am so sorry. You must be fuming. This is one of the cruellest emotional tricks going.

If it's any help, your children will get used to her pulling this trick (speaking from experience with extremely mentally ill biol. mother). It hurts badly, but in the end you develop calluses.

Which you shouldn't have to do, but it'll be your mother who has lost their and yours trust.

HumptyDumptyBumpty it's so good to know I'm not alone, thank you. I think I agree with the 6 of one, there is some enabling going on both sides. My dm definitely gets something out of being needed so much, which is even sadder as when a new man comes into dsis life my poor mum gets dropped :(
I've had dm on the phone tonight, like nothing happened. The most upsetting thing for me is that history is repeating now as my dsis children have complicated needs, so my dc get overlooked.
I wonder sometimes if I should instigate low contact with dm, but she's my best friend, we talk every day, and I really want to support her. I feel she's naive really and gets sucked in and manipulated.
I just keep repeating myself to dm about dsis, but she always forgives her and then goes back to being the skivvy.
You're right too, I do think my dm kind of obsesses over dsis, she panics if she doesn't get a text replied to right away, and when they fell out recently she took a day off work, which is unheard of.
It's hard to watch someone you love get used up.

ifuknow that's awful. Your 'D'M should be ashamed of herself - but she won't be. Your poor DC, I feel for you all. You're not a mug, she's a master manipulator.

fillie it's sad that your DC are losing out. When I first posted, one of the main motivators for going low/no contact was that my M has little or no interest in my DD, only showing passing interest when she can criticise her, or make a drama out of perfectly normal baby behaviour.
Your DM sounds like she's addicted to drama. It's possible to have huge love and concern for a troubled person (as I do for my DSis) without making every bump in the road into a mountain. She also enjoys the martyr role a bit, yes?
You're definitely not alone!

Yes I think she does enjoy that, she often sighs heavily and says "well I've got to go and help tonight." I say to her that she hasn't GOT to at all. Then it's all "oh well she needs me "etc. dsis has her very well trained though, she's very controlling, mum needs an excuse to visit us and often doesn't tell my dsis when we meet up. Mostly because she fears dsis will huff that she wasn't included, but they see each other all the time without me.
Thankfully my dm and dsis are both very loving towards my dc when we do meet up. The problem is that dsis and her dc needs are prioritised over mine and my dc. For example, dm has the chance to have both sets of dgc over in the hols, but I just know already that dsis and her dc needs will take priority and make it impossible for my dc to go. It will be something like, "I can't collect your dc as I'll have to collect her dc. " or "well dsis dc need to be picked up at a specific time so ....".
The thing I find hard is that I'm really struggling at the moment for various reasons, I need some support, and there are times when I work really hard and could use some help at home with dc. But dsis always needs help too, she has poor health and has a lot going on right now too. She will get the help.
I feel like a jealous brat when I complain to dm, so I don't mention it often. Do you have any advice for improving things with my mum, or helping me accept her decision to keep going back to dsis after she's been so vile?

Thank you Humpty of course she won't feel ashamed, that feeling doesn't exist for her. I've never heard her express any guilt or remorse for things she wishes she'd done differently, or any obligation to anyone else. She has always run her life to suit No. 1 - herself.
Fillie you're not a brat, it must be horrible to feel that you always take 2nd place to your sister, especially at times when you need the support yourself.
It's interesting that it's your sister who has her mother trained to cater to her every whim. Why do you think she has this power over your mum? I can understand a child needing to please a parent and seek approval, but how does a child gain the control?

ifuknow That is absolutely awful behaviour of your mother; words fail me! Does she not realise that crying wolf like this means you won't be there when the time does come? (You won't, right?) Are you an only child, or do you have siblings?

fillie It sounds like a very difficult situation for you and your DM does seem to have a bit of a martyr complex. I don't really know what you can do but there are far wiser heads than mine on this thread so hopefully someone will have some good advice. Have you told her that you're struggling and need help? What did she say? You're not a jealous brat and, if I were you, I would question that little voice inside you which is telling you so. Whose voice is it? Why is it telling you that? Have you been told that all your life?

Attila Hoping you and your DH are coping OK.

Best wishes to everyone else, sorry not got time to namecheck all.

Good advice from bride there. I've told my M that I need help, am struggling etc. It gets ignored. My DSis (and she is dear to me, as she's lovely, just fucked up) is more interesting, as she has big dramas. She gets the attention, and I don't. I don't think it's brattish of me, or you fillie, to think that that's unfair. Don't be unkind to yourself, lovely!

How to deal with it? Dunno! Find other rl support, is my only survival technique - I have an ACE MIL, who really helps out, and is kind and thoughtful. It's not what I wish for (a kind, supportive DM who I could turn to), but I'm lucky to have her.

Had a massive wobble the past few days. DD has been poorly, and lovely MIL has been calling to ask after her, and ask if she can do anything. It's really brought home to me that my M, despite knowing about it (I posted on Fb for advice, and she can still see my posts), hasn't called or anything. It's not serious, obvs, but it really hurts that she doesn't give a shiny shit about me or DD. My DH keeps saying the only thing I can do is not have that relationship with my DD, and I think he's right.

TheBride yes I'm an OC. I'm just waiting for them to organise a bed in a hospice and then I'm going home. When the time does come, I'll try to get here in time. If I don't well that's too bad. DH is fuming and thinks I should just leave her, he says they won't rush to get a bed sorted whilst I'm here looking after her. I'm getting some help but it's mimimal and I'm struggling. I'm going to speak to the Macmillan nurse tomorrow and insist they admit her.

would it help to set a limit by when you're going? say Monday?

If they question it - you have your own children who need you!

Yes Meerka I've got a time limit in mind. She knows she's pissed me off, is now sleeping through the night, had been calling for me up to 8 times. It's as if she thinks that if she moderates her behaviour I'll soften up and stay. I mentioned this a few weeks ago, she's saying 'Thank you' when I do things, but you can hear in her voice that it's just an afterthought. She's bitter that she's going to die, but I've still got the good years of my life left, how can a "mother" feel like that? I mentioned that DS is thinking of going skiing with friends in the new year and she said that she doesn't want to hear about people going on holiday as she'll never have another holiday. What a nasty old bag.

Thanks all, good advice. I do try to let dm know I need support, she's always lovely but is so tied up with other commitments it's hard for her make time. She does try, I feel that after a hard life of looking after everyone else, she should be being looked after, I try to take care of her, I believe she tries to take care of me. She's just very caught up in dsis life though which makes it hard.
Humptydumptybumty sorry to hear you had a wobble, I think your dh is right, all you can do is be better for your dd than your dm was for you.
I find it astonishing how sometimes you can think you're so ok, then life sends you something like that and it shakes you up, takes you right back to that original pain, only it hurts more now somehow, because no one ever made it better, it's not over, and it's not likely to be over any time soon if ever.
Sorry I'm not sure where that came from, just a feeling I got reading your words.
Try maybe to take some comfort from your Mil, she sounds like she has a lot of love to offer, you could make the most of that. And you dh, he sounds good. X

Oh my gosh ifuknow, really really nasty old bag! I don't know your story, yet, will read back. Don't understand how a person gets to that point where they can't see the joy that's right in front of them.

ifuknow IIRC, she only started saying "thank you" after you told her you had to leave the last time you were there, to make sure you would feel better about her and come back again... it's not for your benefit, it's for hers.

Humpty sorry about your "wobble". Your DH talks a lot of sense.

humpty just a thought. Might it be possible to talk to your mother about specifically your daughter? it's very hurtful when your parent doesn't care about your children but it sounds like your mum is more blind than anything else ... although perhaps wilfully blind.

If you keep the focus off you and point out that she didn't ring, she didn't text, she didn't pop round. That you realise that her priority is your sister but that this is hurtful.

Its just possible this will get through to her if you keep the focus off yourself and on the grandmother-grandchild relationship. More likely it won't. If it doesn't, then I'd suggest actually trying to detach from her emotionally to some degree.

She's made her decision and it only hurts to keep battering yourself on the bars of a cage when you are essentially on the outside and somewhat second-best. It's better, and it's sensible, to step back and protect yourself.

TheBride yes you're right, she did start being bit 'nicer' when I was going home, I know she does it for her own interests, not to let me know in a heartfelt way that she loves and appreciates me.
I did discuss with Macmillan that she could go into a hospice for a while and come back home, for me to take care of her at the end. That can't happen now, I've used up the leave I set aside to do that. Plus I've no inclination to do it, I was going to do it because it was her wish to die at home, she's gone on and on about it all year, but hasn't once considered the impact on others.
I'm trying really hard not to let my heart rule my brain, but it's difficult. I look at her and do feel sympathy, even though she can see the strain I'm under and doesn't care. I just want it all to be over so I can move on with my life.

ifuknow that all sounds terribly difficult and stressful. Is she going into a hospice now? Hopefully it won't be long and you can begin to heal.

I've got a therapy session in about half an hour. I had another appointment earlier today but it got cancelled but meant I didn't have enough time to do anything else, so I've been farting around all morning. Feel a bit under the weather (sore throat) and tired so don't feel like doing anything, but feels like a wasted morning. Feel like I should have done something with my free time but can't be arsed.

Quite an intense counselling session today, probably the most intense one so far. Now have work in and really don't feel like it. Also got feedback on my studies and it was disappointing again, so feeling thoroughly pummelled. :(

G2B: can you take a bit of time to decompress? My therapist friend said to me to absolutely not just slot back into life the moment my therapy session finished.

there we blotchy eyes at school pick up a couple of times, i can tell you.

Take the day off and start afresh in the morning, see if DH can take the kids out for a bit tomorrow so you can catch up.

Have 900 words for this afternoon, which I absolutely have to do. I'm going to do that now and then take the kids for a run in the park in a couple of hours. I've got about another 600 words for Monday but I'll do that over the weekend. It's really pretentious twaddle so takes a fair bit of brain power to translate.
I spoke to my tutor (who's also a friend and colleague) and she was really upbeat and positive about the feedback, so i feel a bit better. We have a tutorial next week about my progress so will hopefully thrash out some strategies for how to stp making the same stupid errors.
I'll probably come back a bit later and post about the actual therapy session if that's OK?

I was going to start a new thread for this but it probably belongs here. DD had an Inset day this week so we decided on impulse to go to see the poppies in London. DH works most weekends so we had a chance for a rare family day out.

Took my mobile out when we got there to find I'd missed a call from DM. She calls me all the time so I didn't return it, and promptly forgot all about it.

Next evening she called me, absolutely fuming. Said she'd called me at work and on my mobile and nobody knew where I was. Tellingly she couldn't remember what was so vital that she'd had to call me for. I said we'd been to London. That set her off again. She wanted to see the poppies too. When I said she'd got a railcard so she could pop up there herself she got more annoyed because she "wouldn't be able to find her way there."

Firstly I was annoyed at the phone stalking. I carry my mobile for my benefit, not so I can be instantly available. She calls me all the time and her first question is always "where are you?" in an accusing/aggressive way. She calls me regularly on a Saturday morning and every time I tell her I'm at DDs dance lesson, where I am every Sat am and have been for the last 3 years

The other is her expectation that we will always take her everywhere we go. I invite her to most school events and she probably comes with us on 80% of our day trips. She expects to come on our only holiday every year even though she has 3 or 4. But the more I include her the more she demands and the more she whines when we do stuff without her. Sometimes I just want to spend time with DH and DD, and TBH she is hard work when she does come.

Does anyone else suffer this? Any tips? My brother never takes her anywhere - he says he's not that stupid